Curse

upier · Apr 14, 2008, 01:34 PM // 13:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fuzzy Taco

you mean the FoW that Ursan teams troll through with no problem, and the FoW that coordinated physical teams can steamroll in less than an hour?

No I mean the fact that it's an end-game area where the foes don't rely on insanely high levels, double damage or other silly exploits but we instead see some nice game design in the form of ambushes, patrols and quite decent teams - in terms of single party member builds and also team builds compared to something as broken to what we have started seeing after the release of Factions.
Sure it's insanely easy now - but it's actually a place where one might be able to learn something about the game compared to insta-kill scenarios that took over PvE later.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Washi

I missed the point? Your point is that you "think" SR is overpowered while the truth is that it isn't op compared to all those bullcrap skills we have around.

And ofcourse pve cannot be ballanced because people will always find skill combinations to abuse game mechanics, and WTF has fow to do with balance? LOL I guess you do not understand what you're talkin about, and just made a thread to troll around.

Nope, sorry.
I know that SR is overpowered in PvE. And the fact that we have other mechanics that are equally (or even more) broken - doesn't change that for a bit.
My point - and which I feel was nicely shown - is that balance means something different to PvE players then it does to PvP players.
While this is not ours, the PvE player's fault, the fact remains that the viable understanding of the game balance is closer to the PvP player's understanding of balance.

And no, PvE could be balanced - but it should be a process started before the release of GW AND then a process kept alive during the game's lifetime!
A.Net should balance the skills for PvP - but balance PvE for the new skills.
That way we'd obtain balance in PvE plus also remove some of the current stiffness.
Of course this will never happen because it takes too much work (especially now - after 3 years of doing pretty much nothing about it!) - but it could be done. So I just hope they learn their lesson for GW2.

So yeah, you did miss the point of this thread. But then again - it was more of an experiment to show my point to MV.

The Meth · Apr 14, 2008, 01:48 PM // 13:48

I don't think PvE can ever really be 'balanced'. The reason being that all enemies have static builds. The way guild wars is designed, if you know the build your enemies are using there will always be 1 or 2 builds that excel at destroying those enemies. Right now, 95% of the difficulty in PvE is solved by asking someone for a build template. There is very little skill involved in the actual playing. PvE isn't balanced, if the enemies had balanced groups and a half decent intelligence they would wipe the floor with us considering all the bonuses they get. Instead, the enemies are generally all gimmick teams and PvE forces you to run the counter-gimmick to succeed.

Chthon · Apr 14, 2008, 03:33 PM // 15:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbobusa

But this thread shows that people are fine with the timer...?

Just to be clear, no, I am not OK with the timer, and I never will be.

Insofar as this thread is a roundabout way of trying to get people to go on record as accepting the timer, its a bit of dishonest bullshit.

Alex Morningstar · Apr 14, 2008, 03:34 PM // 15:34

No. Leave it be.

The Meth · Apr 14, 2008, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Just to be clear, no, I am not OK with the timer, and I never will be.

Insofar as this thread is a roundabout way of trying to get people to go on record as accepting the timer, its a bit of dishonest bullshit.

I think everyone will agree that SR needed to be nerfed and that the timer just wasn't a good method of doing it, seeing as it rewards people who kill slower. At least Anet changed it from the 1 death every 5 seconds to 3 deaths every 15 seconds, which isn't horribly constricting but still just an arbitrary time limit on energy gain.

Since right now the timer limit only really affects PvE play, we can be pretty sure that Anet isn't going to invest a large amount of time to revamp all necro skills and come up with a new soul reaping mechanism that works in both PvE and PvP, so we just have to live with it.

It's A Me · Apr 14, 2008, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Sr isnt overpowered, its not underpowered. its fine. not better than what it was but its more 'balanced' and does its job perfectly well.

Carinae · Apr 14, 2008, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

My point - and which I feel was nicely shown - is that balance means something different to PvE players then it does to PvP players.

Well, we are playing a different game than they are, so our goals are necessarily different. They play against 8 other players with access to the exact same skillset, same armor, same damage potential, etc. We play against much, much larger mobs, with higher armor, unique skills, much, much higher armor and damage potential, etc. We each have differing objectives and goal. It's a totally different game, so yea, it means something different to PvE player than it does to PvP players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

While this is not ours, the PvE player's fault, the fact remains that the viable understanding of the game balance is closer to the PvP player's understanding of balance.

See, now there you're assigning 'fault'. Balance means something totally different in PvE than it does in PvP. We play football, they play chess. There is no 'fault', there are just different playing conditions. Because of that, we request adjustments that sometimes would throw PvP into chaos. Sometimes they request adjustments that throw PvE for a loop. What bothers me is the assumption that they are wiser than we are, that they know more, and especially that EVERYTHING caters to them and we are an afterthought, at best. There IS room to meet both player types, some compromise can be reached that makes most people happy. But no effort is ever made to reach compromise, a happy medium.

Racthoh · Apr 14, 2008, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Sometimes they request adjustments that throw farming for a loop.

Fixed. When it comes to just playing PvE players can get away with a lot. Especially terrible skillbars, Rebirth tactics, whatever. It all still allows players of any skill level to succeed in PvE if we define succeeding in PvE as completing a set of tasks. Tasks can be defined as completing a mission, capping a skill, getting a title, etc.

There have been mechanic changes put into place for the sake of PvP balance this is true. But has anything drastically changed in PvE besides farming?

lennymon · Apr 14, 2008, 11:17 PM // 23:17

Nope, not really Racthoh

If I can take one of ths SoF random deck generator outputs and make a *not as bad as I could've put together* build to vanquish an area then I think that pretty much proves it. Heh.

Carinae · Apr 14, 2008, 11:26 PM // 23:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

There have been mechanic changes put into place for the sake of PvP balance this is true. But has anything drastically changed in PvE besides farming?

Soul Reaping. I understand what you mean, and I agree. There are almost always multiple ways to achieve a task in PvE, where as in PvP a single overpowered mechanic always requires everyone to adopt that strategy to win, and that's bad. No argument.

However, there would be a lot of unhappy people if Anet added an 'Adrenaline Timer', including you. A Primary Attribute that works some of the time is broken. Period. Could you adapt? Probably, but that doesn't really alleviate any frustration when you can see the REASON for the change and you can also see alternative solutions that solve the same problem with less impact on your part of the game.

Is there an imperative need to balance the skillset/mechanics around high-end PvP? Yes, absolutely.

YES, ABSOLUTELY.

But that doesn't absolve Anet from trying to minimize the impact on everyone else. And yet there is no effort at all to do this. There seems to be a consistent behavior on their part to pretend PvE doesn't even exist. If I can come up with a solution to the excessive SR returns that solves the problem on BOTH sides, then Izzy can as well. He gets paid to do that. They can at least indicate why it is necessary to solve the problem in this particular manner.

The SR Timer clearly breaks the synergy between Death and SR. It's not about the amount of energy returned. It's the fact that energy without corpses is broken, and corpses without energy is broken. When something breaks in PvP they fix it the same day. When they break something in PvE it goes for months and months, even indefinately. They just don't care. It's not that their priority is PvP, they just don't care about PvE at all. It might as well not exist.

As I indicated above, there are different objectives for each format of play. Recognize the specific nature of the problem, in both sides of the game, and try to tailor a solution that works for both sides. If they needed to add the timer as a stopgap to preserve PvP balance while they researched a better solution for both sides, then fine. I can accept that. Do you think that's the case? I don't. I think the timer is here to stay, because it solves the problem in the only area of the game that they care about.

lennymon · Apr 15, 2008, 12:41 AM // 00:41

Having thought more though, there is *one* thing in non-farming pve where it (SR timer) actually makes a difference. When I play MM (granted infrequently as heroes are just better...plus I hate to play them) the energy spike from a death *used* to tell me to hurry and use a corpse. If there's red dots which use corpses, then using them first always helps your team win, the red dots waste energy, etc. Perhaps if there was a 0 energy ping for then?

Calista Blackblood · Apr 15, 2008, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

The SR Timer clearly breaks the synergy between Death and SR. It's not about the amount of energy returned. It's the fact that energy without corpses is broken, and corpses without energy is broken. When something breaks in PvP they fix it the same day. When they break something in PvE it goes for months and months, even indefinately. They just don't care. It's not that their priority is PvP, they just don't care about PvE at all. It might as well not exist.

is your problem with arena net or the timer? its hard to tell

it CANNOT be broken in any way when necromancers are the sole class within the game that receive ANY benefit from a dying foe in terms of direct energy gain without use of skills.every other class has to rely on other means of energy gain or cutting the energy costs of skills.soul reaping and necros are still as viable and powerfull abeit with a little 15 sec wait

anet handled the changes to soul reaping like kids using swear words.kid has 10 toys and swears 5 times losing a toy each time,youd think by now the kid would stop but no,kid carries on swearing until it has one toy left thats supposedly broken

the only true fact about this entire thread is that soul reaping was abused to the point by the class across pve and pvp that it brought the changes upon itself,we cannot blame any build,any one or anet

zling · Apr 15, 2008, 01:39 AM // 01:39

Soul Reaping is perfectly fine as it is! yes I play my Necro and I play him a lot, and he doesnt have any energy issues...

as for balance, what PvE needs is mobs to have 8 skills not just 2-6 and perhaps 2-3 different BALANCED skill bars with different elites for each type of monster. and each monster spawns with a random skill bar so you can have 2 heket warriors with different skill bars.
that way the only thing you can still abuse is the dumb AI that has rather crappy target choice and even crappier target changing mechanics. also the whole pulling concept will still be bugged. but than PvE players do need something to their advantage as mobs are usually a lot more than the party and mostly at a higher lvl too!

mrmango · Apr 15, 2008, 01:59 AM // 01:59

Soul Raping is fine as it is

upier · Apr 15, 2008, 06:59 AM // 06:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

See, now there you're assigning 'fault'. Balance means something totally different in PvE than it does in PvP. We play football, they play chess. There is no 'fault', there are just different playing conditions.

So what you are saying is that football players know the chess rules by default?
That's my issue.
There is no fault here - just a simple observation.

System_Crush · Apr 15, 2008, 07:34 AM // 07:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by zling

Soul Reaping is perfectly fine as it is! yes I play my Necro and I play him a lot, and he doesnt have any energy issues...

as for balance, what PvE needs is mobs to have 8 skills not just 2-6 and perhaps 2-3 different BALANCED skill bars with different elites for each type of monster. and each monster spawns with a random skill bar so you can have 2 heket warriors with different skill bars.
that way the only thing you can still abuse is the dumb AI that has rather crappy target choice and even crappier target changing mechanics. also the whole pulling concept will still be bugged. but than PvE players do need something to their advantage as mobs are usually a lot more than the party and mostly at a higher lvl too!

Mobs of lvl 20+ should use random builds that players using in PvP in real time.

Specially grouped mobs(such as Kournans who have warriors monks and rangers in 1 group, not a group of 8 sin raptors) mobs should use builds from team arena teams, guildbattle teams or Alliance battle teams.
That would make them a lot more interesting.

But
by doing that you are randomizing huge aspect of the game, which means unlucky players will be severely disadvantaged while a lucky group might find FoW is full nothing but of noob builds when they clear it.
But then again, most noob builds are better than most monster builds.

Div · Apr 16, 2008, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Thinking that soul reaping is underpowered in PvE is the same as thinking ursan is balanced. I win this thread.

Warskull · Apr 16, 2008, 05:26 PM // 17:26

Soul Reaping is probably overpowered, still. Seriously, I have a difficult time fathoming how necros would run into energy problems in PvE.

Carinae · Apr 16, 2008, 08:41 PM // 20:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calista BlackBlood

it CANNOT be broken in any way

Somehow, not one, but TWO broken mechanics within SR doesn't constitute broken?

MM's stall out at even moderate kill rates because the stupid timer uttery breaks corpse-exploitation synergy. That's a fact. Everyone knows it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

I think everyone will agree that SR needed to be nerfed and that the timer just wasn't a good method of doing it, seeing as it rewards people who kill slower.

Even Meth agrees with me on this, and that should tell you something.

Furthermore, sharing SR hits off other people's minions, is not ONLY broken, it's an exploit.

I'm arguing for a change that fixes BOTH mechanics AND reduces SR energy returns by 50% AND permanently closes the door to PvP exploitation, and somehow that's bad?

MasterSasori · Apr 16, 2008, 08:50 PM // 20:50

How the hell is Soul Reaping underpowered? It's on border line broken, only behind Ursan and Imbagons.