Curse

Calista Blackblood · Apr 13, 2008, 11:29 PM // 23:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

/draws deep breath

Soul Reaping is broken.

It's underpowered for MM builds and overpowered for everything else. Why does that matter? Because Soul Reaping was designed and built to power MM builds. That's what it's for. Period.

thats like saying necros have no other purpose

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

It's broken, plain and simple.

i dunno about you or anyone else but my 12+1 SR runed armor doesnt complain gaining 13 energy per death 3 times in 15 seconds

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Sabway is a great example. It takes a page out of PvP SR exploitation by powering BOTH an SS necro AND a healer off of minion triggers. That's the same exact thing that got it in trouble in PvP. A necro would create and then destroy a minion and ALL necros on his team would get the SR trigger. That's broken...and that's what led to the timer....which actually further breaks SR.

pvp responsible for SR changes /agree

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Remove the SR timer.
Remove minion/spirits triggering SR entirely.
Significantly lower the costs of minion Animation spells.

Tada. Problem solved. Minion Masters now have corpse-exploitation synergy restored. Energy returns become much more stable and consistent, and no one else can fuel off of a MM in the party.

Best of all the atrocious timer is removed!

spirits havent triggered soul reaping for a long time

Quote:

Update - Tuesday, November 13, 2007:Necromancer

* Soul Reaping: no longer gains any benefit from Spirits.

jayce · Apr 13, 2008, 11:34 PM // 23:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

/draws deep breath

Soul Reaping is broken.

It's underpowered for MM builds and overpowered for everything else. Why does that matter? Because Soul Reaping was designed and built to power MM builds. That's what it's for. Period.

It's broken, plain and simple.

Sabway is a great example. It takes a page out of PvP SR exploitation by powering BOTH an SS necro AND a healer off of minion triggers. That's the same exact thing that got it in trouble in PvP. A necro would create and then destroy a minion and ALL necros on his team would get the SR trigger. That's broken...and that's what led to the timer....which actually further breaks SR.

Most PvE AND PvP players don't want to face that, because they LIKE exploiting that mechanic. But that's where the problem lies. Here is the correct solution, that solves ALL problems and leave NO room for exploitation:

Remove the SR timer.
Remove minion/spirits triggering SR entirely.
Significantly lower the costs of minion Animation spells.

Tada. Problem solved. Minion Masters now have corpse-exploitation synergy restored. Energy returns become much more stable and consistent, and no one else can fuel off of a MM in the party.

Best of all the atrocious timer is removed!

that still will not fix the problem that soul reaping faces in competitive pvp. as long as soul reaping remain a passive energy management mechanic, where-as something must die before you see any rate of return, then it will never be viable in high-end pvp.

Jayce Of Underworld

Carinae · Apr 13, 2008, 11:46 PM // 23:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calista BlackBlood

thats like saying necros have no other purpose

I am explicitly saying that SR was intended to fuel MM builds. And I'm right. Most Blood and Curses necros get angry at that, but it's true. The entire design and mechanics of SR screams MM. It has no synergy with Blood/Curses at all, but SR and Death go together like bread and butter.

SR is a PvE attribute in a balanced PvP game. That's the problem. It's a good mechanic, but it fundamentally doesn't belong in GW. My suggestion for changing it specifically attempts to close the ways it can be exploited while maintaining its core purpose. It's as good as can be done without removing SR entirely and starting over.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calista BlackBlood

i dunno about you or anyone else but my 12+1 SR runed armor doesnt complain gaining 13 energy per death 3 times in 15 seconds

If your running anything but minions, that's true. If you're running minions, it isn't. When a corpse appears, SR should trigger. Every.Single.Time. When corpses appear and SR doesn't trigger, that's broken. When SR triggers and there are no corpses available, that's broken.

The amount of energy returned is irrevelant, utterly, if I can't spend it.

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayce

that still will not fix the problem that soul reaping faces in competitive pvp. as long as soul reaping remain a passive energy management mechanic, where-as something must die before you see any rate of return, then it will never be viable in high-end pvp.

Nothing short of deleting SR and starting over will fix that. And I don't care about that issue anyway. It's a fundamental design flaw, it's too late to correct. My solution solves the exploitation issues however, and allows it to fulfill it's intended purpose as best as possible.

Calista Blackblood · Apr 14, 2008, 12:50 AM // 00:50

April 05 Prophecies released

April 06 Factions released

June 06 "Soul Reaping now only gives half Energy from Spirits."

April 07 "Soul Reaping: functionality changed so that you may only gain Energy from Soul Reaping every 5 seconds."

June 07 "Soul Reaping states it will only trigger three times per fifteen seconds and that only spirits you control will trigger Soul Reaping, but spirits no longer give only half energy."

8 days later
"Soul Reaping: Energy gain now triggers 3 times every 15 seconds (if you are already at maximum Energy when something dies, it does not count toward this limit). You now gain full Energy when a Spirit you control dies; you gain no Energy when other Spirits die."

Nightfall released

November 07 "Soul Reaping: no longer gains any benefit from Spirits."

old sr:specced at 9sr 9 deaths returns a definate 81 energy
current:specced at 9sr 9 deaths within 15 seconds will return a net 27 energy

looking at maths,its a huge kick in the proverbial nuts

the current and i quote "broken" state of soul reaping hasnt happened overnight,forcing a build directory clear-out.its taken its time over the years to become what it now is.im sure influenced by abuse in certain areas not excluding pve on any level.at the end of the day we've all abused it somehow,wether it be sabway or necro bombing pvp to power hybrid necro monks or such

there are 2 facts that stand out here:

soul reaping abuse brought the necromancers so-called demise (read soul reaping nerf) upon the class (we cant blame monks or any other profession,ooh how i hate them,sitting in the corner drinking tea,looking innocent...(ok back on track)

soul reaping is not imbalanced "broken" itself,its the players/posters.some like myself are more than happy playing the game as is with friends and succeeding.others just seem to want what was taken off us due to abuse and spend time QQing about it rather than playing what is still a totally viable,usefull and successful profession

/endrant

Keekles · Apr 14, 2008, 12:59 AM // 00:59

The idea was flawed to begin with. Something dies, get energy. Sounds like a good idea, until you can spam 25 en spells without any form of e-management other than SR. I believe that was imbalanced. Now you can't spam 25 en spells, but as long as you have minions and there are corpses, you get enough energy to power out 5-10 en spells endlessly. Not my idea of balance. Remove sr triggering off minions, and that'll remove the exploitation, then we can remove the time limit.

The Meth · Apr 14, 2008, 01:24 AM // 01:24

Soul reaping in pvp either falls into two categories: A useless buff to an already winning team or a gimmicky way to get infinite energy. It really just wasn't a good idea in the first place. In a non-gimmick based build, SR is completely useless in any kind of stalemate situation. The only time it is useful is when you are already winning (enemies dieing) or you are losing (your team dieing). The first is an unneeded buff for a winning team, the second is planning for failure.

To make SR an attribute that isn't trash for PvP, there has to be some semi-reliable but non-abusable way to trigger it, or it needs to be given more SR skills that a build can be based upon.

As for PvE, I wouldn't say SR is really overpowered. In my opinion it performs the same function for necros as Eternal Aura does Dervishes: It lets the party move on quickly to the next group instead of waiting half a minute to become battle ready again. Any decent team should be going through enemies quickly and efficiently enough that a necro could survive a single battle without SR bonuses, its just letting you recharge for the next fight quicker. Exceptions given of course to MM necros, who require that SR energy to have any hope of having more then 2 bone fiends.

Chthon · Apr 14, 2008, 02:15 AM // 02:15

1. There's no such thing as "balance" in PvE. See Ursan.

2. If we're really concerned about fixing SR for PvE, Carinae's is the right way to do it:

Remove the SR timer.
Remove minion/spirits triggering SR entirely.
Significantly lower the costs of minion Animation spells -- and we're talking 5e and 10e skills, maybe, maybe, maybe 15e for bone fiend.

3. Fixing SR for PvP is going to require a complete rework. The best suggestion I've heard so far is "nexpertise" -- a death triggers a X% reduction in necro skill (or possibly all skill) costs for Y sec. Not that I'm sure that's going to solve all the problems, but its an example of how total a reworking it would need.

cellardweller · Apr 14, 2008, 03:20 AM // 03:20

The general guildwars pve community is busy stomping through HM on autopilot using a build thats based on exploiting the over-the-top-unstopable-energy-machine nature of SR and there are still people around that think SR is underpowered? I'm astounded.

For those suggesting it removing SR from minions does not do enough to justify removing the timer. The 3 kills/15secs limit is already overloaded from monster deaths meaning that minion SR is not a factor. The only change that could justify removal of the SR timer is to change it to a regen based system where SR ranks add to duration, not to volume.

Carinae · Apr 14, 2008, 03:54 AM // 03:54

You're not seeing the big picture. Removing SR from minions breaks Sabway utterly. It breaks Jaggedway, and Spirit Spam (yea, yea those are already fixed, albiet clunkily)

No, regen doesn't work for a MM. It has to be straight energy returns, because those stack immediately. The energy is then immediately re-invested in more minions. No one cares at all if SR generated 4000e/sec as long as it's folded back into minions. It's ONLY when that energy starts powering heals/hexes/etc that it becomes an issue.

The "broken" parts of SR are the timer and the 'sharing'. Energy without corpses is bad. Corpses without energy is bad. Fueling off of another player is an exploit.

cellardweller · Apr 14, 2008, 04:40 AM // 04:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

You're not seeing the big picture. Removing SR from minions breaks Sabway utterly. It breaks Jaggedway, and Spirit Spam (yea, yea those are already fixed, albiet clunkily)

But it doesn't. The N/Rt healer and the SS nec still function perfectly without the Minionbomber because the SR cap is already maxed out by monster deaths before minions are even factored in. You can replace the minionbomber with any generic nuker and romp through ooze or oolas lab with similar ease - the funionality you lose is not the energy, its the body blocking.

upier · Apr 14, 2008, 05:10 AM // 05:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

From a PvP (GvG) perspective, SR is extremely conditional. The only true deaths come from spikes, and rarely pressure.
Which there isn't usually a death until around 2 minutes in from the start becasue the Monks need to be weakened in terms of energy, and your primary attribute is mainly a waste until that point.

I was actually referring to a comparison between SR and other passive e-management primaries/other primaries PLUS the comparison between SR and e-management skills IN PvE!
Not SR in PvP.
And it should be REALLY trashed based on that.

Master Ketsu · Apr 14, 2008, 05:20 AM // 05:20

IMO the original whiners about SR nerfs were people who have never played anything but necro, because if they did they would realize just how much power SR is giving them. SR was and still is ( but to a lesser extent ) a huge energy boon compared to other classes.

It would be awesome if Anet had a button that could turn any Necro that complains about SR nerfing into a mesmer for 24 hours.

Carinae · Apr 14, 2008, 06:09 AM // 06:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

But it doesn't. The N/Rt healer and the SS nec still function perfectly without the Minionbomber because the SR cap is already maxed out by monster deaths before minions are even factored in. You can replace the minionbomber with any generic nuker and romp through ooze or oolas lab with similar ease - the funionality you lose is not the energy, its the body blocking.

Well, I know what you mean, but there is no other alternative. Regen boost won't work on a MM...maybe, maybe if minion costs were reduce like I suggested, but DEFINATELY NOT if you don't reduce the costs. You'd still need to stack regen somehow to cover multiple quick deaths, either stack in pips or in duration.

Do you really think most people kill at that rate? I don't think they do. Experienced ones do, sure. But the MB in Sabway covers people who don't. It's like a battery.

upier · Apr 14, 2008, 06:15 AM // 06:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Do you really think most people kill at that rate? I don't think they do. Experienced ones do, sure. But the MB in Sabway covers people who don't. It's like a battery.

So PvE should be balanced on bad players?

Carinae · Apr 14, 2008, 06:26 AM // 06:26

PvE isn't balanced at all. And in PvP returns like that aren't possible.

My primary focus is in restoring the corpse-exploitation synergy by eliminating the timer. It can be done without opening PvP exploits. Further improvements to SR simply can't be done without a total redesign, including revamping the entire Death line, and I don't see that happening at this point.

As I said, my suggestion solves the PvP exploit potential and restores corpse-exploitation synergy as best as is possible with the current design. The timer is an atrocity.

Turbobusa · Apr 14, 2008, 07:27 AM // 07:27

But this thread shows that people are fine with the timer...?

Washi · Apr 14, 2008, 07:46 AM // 07:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

So PvE should be balanced on bad players?

PvE cannot and will never be ballanced. It's funny how you complain about SR when there are things like Ursan, SY, PI, etc around. sigh

upier · Apr 14, 2008, 08:27 AM // 08:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Washi

PvE cannot and will never be ballanced. It's funny how you complain about SR when there are things like Ursan, SY, PI, etc around. sigh

You missed the point of this thread ...

And I disagree on your view that PvE cannot be balanced.
Something like FoW showed us a version of PvE that is looking VERY promising!

Fuzzy Taco · Apr 14, 2008, 10:34 AM // 10:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Something like FoW showed us a version of PvE that is looking VERY promising!

you mean the FoW that Ursan teams troll through with no problem, and the FoW that coordinated physical teams can steamroll in less than an hour?

anyway, on topic: SR is in no way underpowered in PvE. at the moment, it's clumsy as hell, with the timer and restrictions and whatnot, but it's still a powerful source of unlimited energy on multiple players.

Washi · Apr 14, 2008, 11:48 AM // 11:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

You missed the point of this thread ...

And I disagree on your view that PvE cannot be balanced.
Something like FoW showed us a version of PvE that is looking VERY promising!

I missed the point? Your point is that you "think" SR is overpowered while the truth is that it isn't op compared to all those bullcrap skills we have around.

And ofcourse pve cannot be ballanced because people will always find skill combinations to abuse game mechanics, and WTF has fow to do with balance? LOL I guess you do not understand what you're talkin about, and just made a thread to troll around.