Curse

Luminarus · Mar 12, 2008, 10:18 AM // 10:18

I really like the change to simple thievery, it has great potential. However it lacks in one aspect, and that is that the skill you steal is 90% useless because you have 0 in that attribute.

My suggestion is that simple theivery also "borrows" their attribute rating, so if you steal a monk's Word of Healing you can use it to heal for the 122+94, rather then the 15+5 you normally get from using word of healing at 0.

This would make the skill useful for more then just using it on unattributed spells, or as an elite powerlock with longer recharge (if you hit a spell, it goes down for 19 seconds, and you're down for 29 seconds). My suggestion doesnt make the spell insanely powerful, however it makes it alot more useful.

It still has problems, for instance if you steal an ele's rodgorts invocation, despite having the 14 fire the ele had, you probably can't use it because you dont have the energy management to go along with it the ele had. Also, if you steal a spell in you're attribute line from someone with lower attributes, you won't get the full benefit of the spell that you would have if it used you're attributes.

EDIT: Duckboy's Suggestion of the skill using you're domination rank is a better idea.

Ele Mental · Mar 12, 2008, 11:21 AM // 11:21

yh thats the only thing although i did see someone steal a monster skill at aspenwood the other day, however they have fixed that bug now

yh /signed

its a good idea but maybe it would become a little bit too overpowering, maybe if it was just half of the opponents attributes

Luminarus · Mar 12, 2008, 11:41 AM // 11:41

Maybe 1/2 although i didnt think having the same rank as the person you stole it from is that broken, because it requires skill to take the skill, and when you do its there for 20 seconds w/o the ability to get rid of it earlier.

BTW incase this was misunderstood, i didnt mean steal the opponents attributes, merely copy so that you can use the skill effectively, w/o removing the attributes from ur opponent (like WoD).

Taking the attributes may be a good attribute with a slight change to the skill:

Make it a hex, and when it interupts a skill that skill is "stolen" and the attribute line of that skill is reduced to 0. This means that it could be removed, whilst providing a better bonus on interupts.

duckboy · Mar 12, 2008, 01:09 PM // 13:09

signet of illusions was a step in the attribute using line, where it uses YOUR illusion attribute so u can use taken spells effectively. However this is an elite in itself thus u cant use both. Because 'Simple Thievery' is an elite, i think this should've been included in the skill from the off.

'Interrupt target foe's action. If that action was a skill, that skill is disabled for 5..20 seconds, and Simple Thievery is replaced by that skill using your domination attribute.'

Pick Me · Mar 12, 2008, 01:16 PM // 13:16

I think all of the theivery skills work fine. The object is mainly to stop the other guy from using that skill, rather than for you to use it at their same level.

Although against monsters these skills are almost useless, as I used 3 skills that steal skills from other people, and I got 2 of the same spells from one monster and 1 skill from that same monster. How can one monster (a rit boss) have 2 copies of Spirit Rift? If the description is correct, one of my spell stealing skills should replace Spirit Rift, thus I shouldn't be able to steal it again, but I did.

I wonder if I arcane echoed one of my spell stealing skills, could I steal the same spell a 3rd time.

Vesio · Mar 12, 2008, 02:32 PM // 14:32

the answer to the question above is yes, I've done it before.

Sir Pandra Pierva · Mar 12, 2008, 07:31 PM // 19:31

i wish simple would at least work like the monster skill monkey see monkey do

upier · Mar 12, 2008, 09:26 PM // 21:26

Dear A.Net,
Please overpower Simple Thievery by removing it's recharge!
Pretty please, with flowers on top!
:flowers:

That's all I want from this skill - otherwise I won't even bother going near it!

cgruber · Mar 12, 2008, 09:39 PM // 21:39

diversion + 3 spell steals + arcane echo = 1 shutdown mofo

Lishy · Mar 12, 2008, 10:43 PM // 22:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by duckboy

'Interrupt target foe's action. If that action was a skill, that skill is disabled for 5..20 seconds, and Simple Thievery is replaced by that skill using your domination attribute.'

I like that effect.But maybe we can change the recharge time to 0 and make it an insta-cast?

draxynnic · Mar 12, 2008, 11:31 PM // 23:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by duckboy

signet of illusions was a step in the attribute using line, where it uses YOUR illusion attribute so u can use taken spells effectively. However this is an elite in itself thus u cant use both. Because 'Simple Thievery' is an elite, i think this should've been included in the skill from the off.

'Interrupt target foe's action. If that action was a skill, that skill is disabled for 5..20 seconds, and Simple Thievery is replaced by that skill using your domination attribute.'

This proposal has my support.

horseradish · Mar 13, 2008, 12:05 AM // 00:05

This is relevant to my interests

Luminarus · Mar 13, 2008, 04:11 AM // 04:11

I do like the Idea of the skill using you're domination attribute, thats better then mine. (Ill edit my post and change the reccomendation, w/ credit)

Miss Puddles · Mar 13, 2008, 07:46 PM // 19:46

this seems too similar to signet of illusions.

Sir Pandra Pierva · Mar 13, 2008, 07:58 PM // 19:58

it should be it would allows mes to hvae more fun with messing with peoples bars

Luminarus · Mar 14, 2008, 05:39 AM // 05:39

It is very similar to signet of illusions in that it allows you to use skills that would normally do little due to a low attribute rating. The point of this, is that in its current state, simple thievery is (essentially) an elite power lock, which is disabled for you for 29 seconds, whilst only disabling them for 19 seconds.

However, if the new skill was usable by the mesmer, then its more worthy of its elite status, rather then being useful simply for stealing rez sig, holy veil and other mesmer's skills.

upier · Mar 14, 2008, 07:58 AM // 07:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luminarus

However, if the new skill was usable by the mesmer, then its more worthy of its elite status, rather then being useful simply for stealing rez sig, holy veil and other mesmer's skills.

Arcane Larceny/Thievery - disable a random spell with the bonus of possibly using the spell.
Simple Thievery - IF it interrupts it disables a SPECIFIC SKILL with the bonus of possibly using the skill.
Trust me - it's worthy of the elite status.
It's just not very good.

And the problem is that it never can become good (well, unless they drop the recharge to 0) - because it's just too gimmicky.
Why use the elite on something that MIGHT turn out to be nice - when you can use it on something that you KNOW WILL turn out nice?

Luminarus · Mar 14, 2008, 08:11 AM // 08:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Arcane Larceny/Thievery - disable a random spell with the bonus of possibly using the spell.

No skill involved in disabling that skill... fair enough that it shouldn't be chosen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Simple Thievery - IF it interrupts it disables a SPECIFIC SKILL with the bonus of possibly using the skill.
Trust me - it's worthy of the elite status.
It's just not very good.

That requires skill & timing to interupt them, at which point it becomes possible slightly useful to you or not useful at all. Compared with power lock, which has 2 seconds longer recharge, disables it for 12 instead of 19 seconds (at 14) ISNT ELITE, and if it you use it correctly is usable more the TWICE AS MUCH.

This is my point as to why Simple Thievery in its current status isnt worthy of elite, because the fact thats its essentially a 30 second recharge, 10 energy crappy version of d-shot or power lock.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

And the problem is that it never can become good (well, unless they drop the recharge to 0) - because it's just too gimmicky.
Why use the elite on something that MIGHT turn out to be nice - when you can use it on something that you KNOW WILL turn out nice?

If simple thievery was changed the way its been suggested, then any skill you take WILL turn out nice, and the down side of the 30second recharge if you interupt a skill is actually a bonus of 20seconds of a powerful support/offence skill you can use to your teams advantage.

upier · Mar 14, 2008, 09:38 AM // 09:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luminarus

That requires skill & timing to interrupt them, at which point it becomes possible slightly useful to you or not useful at all. Compared with power lock, which has 2 seconds longer recharge, disables it for 12 instead of 19 seconds (at 14) ISN'T ELITE, and if it you use it correctly is usable more the TWICE AS MUCH.

This is my point as to why Simple Thievery in its current status isn't worthy of elite, because the fact that's its essentially a 30 second recharge, 10 energy crappy version of d-shot or power lock.

Spell VS. Action! Especially on a mesmer.
And D-shot is godly. Of course ST looks pale compared to it. Heck, most of the skills do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luminarus

If simple thievery was changed the way its been suggested, then any skill you take WILL turn out nice, and the down side of the 30second recharge if you interrupt a skill is actually a bonus of 20seconds of a powerful support/offence skill you can use to your teams advantage.

Turning out nice isn't only judged on the power of the skill.
It's also judged on how well it fits into a build.
And it's probably because of this that the skill doesn't receive the buff you suggested. Since the concept of losing a skill that fits into a build is strong enough to not demand the skill being also useful to the thief.

IF the skills were to be buffed - my first suggestions would be to change it so that once target foe dies - the bond is broken and AL/AT/ST revert back to their original form
(this is what I've been saying for ages since this would make these skills finally pretty decent in PvE!)

And then if they are feeling INSANELY generous (like previously stated) - remove the recharge on ST. It would probably be a "TAD" to much - but hey - it's not like I'd kick an overpowered skill out of my bar!

Luminarus · Mar 14, 2008, 12:57 PM // 12:57

0 Recharge would be a stupid buff, not making the skill any more useful, just allowing you to spam it more. Interupts shouldn't be spammed, but should take out key skills.

Simple Thievery now allows you to use the key skills you took out... oh wait, you dont have the attributes for it... darn, that sucks, what should I do with 1/8th of my bar, which used to hold my elite now has a useless skill...

This is a stupid situation that often pops up with simple thievery. Does this mean that the only useful application for this elite is stealing res sigs (which may or may not be useful to you're team), holy veil's, and other mesmer skills (which you may as well bring and a different elite or echo if you already have it on you're bar)

My argument for the change has been based on the fact that compared to other elites, & non elites the bonus gained from this elite are far less useful. Ill quickly list a couple:

1) Disables foe's skill for 19 seconds, however this results in a 29second!!! recharge... useless, p-lock is way better
2) The skill gained is 90% useless, unless you only interupt skills you can use which most probably arent key skills to be interupted
3) Once the skill takes effect, you're bar is lacking a viable elite (none, or an elite from a diff profession you can't use)

Wow, it can interupt an action ... y not bring Cry of Frustration... non elite, aoe damage, way better recharge.

If you want to knock out a skill from a build, try arcane larceny/theivery... non-elite, easier to steal the skill, still unusable. Also, blackout/diversion work wonders there too.

MAYBE if target foe dies the skills revert, however thats a minor change and really wouldnt make much difference, just allowing you to interupt earlier again, which is again a buff.

Finally I have one question:

Would making the skills stolen via simple thievery usable (assuming high enough dom) be broken, or balanced. I fail to see how it could be broken, as they were gonna use it anywayz, and you just lost you're elite skill to take their skill (and yours is out longer then the skill you interupted). Balanced, probably because unless the skill is already overpowered, it wouldnt make ST overpowered... also if you take a weapon attack, its useless for you, as is taking a high energy cost spell (eg rodgorts/b-flash) which the mesmer doesnt have the e-management to handle).

If anyone can show me one way in which having this option would be broken, then ill change my point of view. If you can't and all you have to say is stupid things like:

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Trust me - it's worthy of the elite status.
It's just not very good.

When my suggestion is to change it to be decent, balanced and/or good, then please either a) reconsider you're point of view, or b) stop disregarding an idea that wont make the skill worse, or broken.