Curse

Maverick2201 · Mar 21, 2008, 02:24 PM // 14:24

I'm fine with that, Washi... lets have a PvP version of skills and a PvE version of skills... you folks that enjoy having your own little pow-wow's with one another in an arena have your own set of skills and leave PvE'er skills alone.

This particular nerf doesn't affect me all that much... I just keep waiting for ANet to respond to some complaint about something I DO use often in PvE and then it gets nerfed into uselessness...

Tyla · Mar 21, 2008, 02:28 PM // 14:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maverick2201

Ele's are pretty much designed to be either nukers or earth tanks... what else do you see an Ele as being 'designed' to do?

[skill]ward against melee[/skill][skill]ward against elements[/skill][skill]ward of stability[/skill][skill]blinding surge[/skill][skill]blinding flash[/skill] (then the entire Water Magic line) [skill]gale[/skill][skill]ward against foes[/skill]

Elementalists are mainly a Support role. You have strong offensive and defensive capabilities, but it's damage doesn't compare to that of a Warrior, or Dervish.

If you look at those skills, Blind > Melee, Gale (KD) is a shutdown skill that makes them go byebye for 2 seconds. Ward Against Foes is a Snare skill, along with the majority of the Water Magic line, it's got strong offense and defense.

With an Elementalist you have strong support, but Damage shouldn't be your focus.

(p.s: Sorry for going off-topic.)

Now, on topic: Washi explained it well.
And PvE is easy.

moriz · Mar 21, 2008, 02:31 PM // 14:31

i think you crybabies are overdoing it this time (like always).

you can still machinegun people with these skills... just that you can't hit for 70 damage each shot anymore. i think 50 damage per hit, every second, is still pretty nice.

Julia-Louis Dreyfus · Mar 21, 2008, 02:33 PM // 14:33

i dont think the people that cry realize that nerfs are good. if there were no nerfs everyone would still be running gale warriors

Maverick2201 · Mar 21, 2008, 02:42 PM // 14:42

My biggest questions have yet to be answered... do you think that the nerf bat can quash human innovation to the point that nerfing and balancing can finally cease? If so, do you think its a good thing? Do you think true 100% balance is even a possibility in a game with so many different combinations of skills? Really, thats all this boils down to... the main goal of the nerf bat is to undo the human innovation that came up with the build in the first place. There WILL be another end-all be-all build that will need nerfing... guess what... after that, there will be another one.

And before you know it, enough builds will have become nerfed that the original nerfed builds will become viable again... mark my words... lol

- Tain - · Mar 21, 2008, 02:47 PM // 14:47

There is a theoretical perfect balance, and while we will never see that, we can hope for a meta where many balanced builds will function effectively without any one being too effective.

Maverick2201 · Mar 21, 2008, 02:54 PM // 14:54

I guess I just wonder how, in a game where much of your skill is determined by your ability to match skills together to come up with a good build to suit your needs, you can balance everything so that no one build is too effective. If ANet even begins to approach this 'perfect balance', will there ever be any big wins or big losses? Will every game be determined by 1 kill?

We're not talking about a FPS where much of your skill is determined by your ability to precisely aim with a mouse and time your clicks just right, etc.

Much of GW skill is based in your build and setup... know what I mean?

Splitisoda · Mar 21, 2008, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Well, now this skill is ENTIRELY useless, and to make it worse the archers in AB use this skill.

- Tain - · Mar 21, 2008, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maverick2201

Much of GW skill is based in your build and setup... know what I mean?

I would disagree. Running a certain build =/= skill. Anyone can do that. Exactly how/when/where/what you use from that bar = skill.

XDeadboltX · Mar 21, 2008, 03:01 PM // 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maverick2201

My biggest questions have yet to be answered... do you think that the nerf bat can quash human innovation to the point that nerfing and balancing can finally cease? If so, do you think its a good thing? Do you think true 100% balance is even a possibility in a game with so many different combinations of skills? Really, thats all this boils down to... the main goal of the nerf bat is to undo the human innovation that came up with the build in the first place. There WILL be another end-all be-all build that will need nerfing... guess what... after that, there will be another one.

And before you know it, enough builds will have become nerfed that the original nerfed builds will become viable again... mark my words... lol

I dont think so, but as somebody said earlier, I think its a good thing. I would not be playing this game if things werent freshened up with buffs and nerfs. The problem comes as people have said, is when players who just press 1>2>3 can just beat teams who play with decent tactics or balanced builds or whatever.

Maverick2201 · Mar 21, 2008, 03:01 PM // 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by - Tain -

I would disagree. Running a certain build =/= skill. Anyone can do that. Exactly how/when/where/what you use from that bar = skill.

Well yes, anyone can use someone else's build... it takes true skill to come up with your own killer build and figure out the best way to use it...

i guess i just feel like with so many skills and so many combinations, there must be a viable counter to any 'uber-build' out there... I can't believe that with so so many different skills, anyone could truly come up with an end-all be-all build...

Dr Strangelove · Mar 21, 2008, 03:08 PM // 15:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maverick2201

Well yes, anyone can use someone else's build... it takes true skill to come up with your own killer build and figure out the best way to use it...

i guess i just feel like with so many skills and so many combinations, there must be a viable counter to any 'uber-build' out there... I can't believe that with so so many different skills, anyone could truly come up with an end-all be-all build...

Having a counter to an overpowered build doesn't make it balanced, as the game will quickly become "run this build or run the counter to it". Even the old signet of might was counterable, but I really don't think there's any question it was overpowered beyond belief.

Maverick2201 · Mar 21, 2008, 03:52 PM // 15:52

alright... I guess I have always been wrong when I thought the definition of balance was a counter (and by counter, i don't just mean defense). If someone runs something devastating, should you not run something equally as devastating right back? Look at some of the most powerful bosses in PvE... do we ask ANet to make them weaker? No (well some do)... we figure out ways to counter them to tip the balance in our favor.

Isn't that what strategy is all about?? Tipping the strategic balance in your own favor?

- Tain - · Mar 21, 2008, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Having something ridiculously strong isn't balanced just because it has a counter, no.

And as for PvE bosses... they do double damage just to make them something special, different from normal enemies in the same area. Bosses are supposed to be more powerful, they're intentionally overpowered. Not much in PvE is very balanced, but it's very easy to counter AI since it's always the same.

explodemyheart · Mar 21, 2008, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maverick2201

If someone runs something devastating, should you not run something equally as devastating right back? Look at some of the most powerful bosses in PvE... do we ask ANet to make them weaker? No (well some do)... we figure out ways to counter them to tip the balance in our favor.

You're seriously trying to compare bosses in PvE to real people playing in PvP?

A boss can do a lot of damage but they are never overpowered. You can argue that with me all you want, but they're not. Do you know why? Because you're a person. With a brain, presumably. And because the AI has static skill bars. You have the option to think and you have the advantage of knowing their skill bar. These two things combined allow you to come up with a solution to them steamrolling your team so you can, in fact, steamroll them instead. EVERY SINGLE TIME.

PvP is not at all the same thing. Every time you enter into a PvP match, who you're playing against is a gamble. You cannot counter everything, so you have to pick and choose what you will counter. If you chose incorrectly, you could lose. The solution to that, other than skill balancing, is pretty much as you say. Choose to run some overpowered build that can roll over almost anything. Except... that's not how this game is meant to be played. Thank god Anet recognizes that and thank god you and the people in your camp aren't the ones in charge of such decisions.

Maverick2201 · Mar 21, 2008, 04:14 PM // 16:14

Alright.. well.. I guess I just have to agree to disagree with you. I feel like if you really want to demonstrate your uber-skills in a video game to other people, FPS's are the way to go for multiplayer.

To each their own - I just wish ANet would stop screwing with my side of the game because certain builds are 'overpowered' on your side of the game.

What I have yet to see, however, is someone coming on to a forum to complain about their own build being overpowered. I can't imagine everyone on these forums runs a 'balanced' build just out of their own pure gaming moral standards since who doesn't want to tip the balance in their favor?

I think people who defend skill nerfs only do so when the nerf in question does not affect a skill they use with any frequency.

Much like how I didn't care about all these nerfs to skills used by 55 monks until I decided I wanted to build one -- suddenly the nerfs became a big deal. Once the nerf stick finds the builds you all use, I'm sure your sentiment will be slightly different.

Of course, I'm sure I'll be told that all the builds you all use are perfectly balanced and fair and not overpowered and therefore will not/should not be nerfed ever. Assuming of course that the builds you all run are fairly effective in PvP (if they're not, why are you using it), the only reason yours hasn't been nerfed yet is because there aren't enough people running it yet.

MasterSasori · Mar 21, 2008, 04:18 PM // 16:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

It's down to bad skill designs in the end -- Rangers WERE NOT for damage. Not even half of what this was.

QFT. The problem with the turret ranger is that it placed emphasis on a a secondary role of a ranger. Leave the DPS to characters that are meant for DPS and leave rangers for interrupt/condition speading/pressure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

They provided far too much offensive punch for a template that, essentially, took absolutely no skill at all to play.

Sounds like toucher.

explodemyheart · Mar 21, 2008, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maverick2201

I think people who defend skill nerfs only do so when the nerf in question does not affect a skill they use with any frequency.

Much like how I didn't care about all these nerfs to skills used by 55 monks until I decided I wanted to build one -- suddenly the nerfs became a big deal. Once the nerf stick finds the builds you all use, I'm sure your sentiment will be slightly different.

I've been playing the game for 32 months, the majority of which has been spent in PvE. I have a character of every profession. The "nerf bat" has found my "regular" PvE builds more times than I can count, some of them recently. And you know what? I can still use those skills efficiently in PvE! And any of the skills that may have been nerfed to the point where I didn't feel like using them anymore, I have always found a good alternative. In some cases, something that worked better.

Arkantos · Mar 21, 2008, 04:42 PM // 16:42

QQ in one of the other update threads please.