Curse

Kale Ironfist · Mar 18, 2008, 01:29 AM // 01:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by blockkiller

mayby but most arguements are true, i play mostly pve and in pve you mostly play H/H, you're main damage output is death blossom, but most foes are down when i use it and then i have to restart my chain so

Your comparison introduces a fallacy, that the dagger assassin cannot take advantage of the pros that your critical axe does. It can.

Then you input cons which have no meaning. Too many attack skills? You're using 2 skills, plus the leadups (either 1 or 2). The critical axe uses at least 3. Even if you go berserk and decide that you're going to be using Golden Fox and Wild as your leadups, and Critical Strike for energy management, you still have 3 skills as utility, and Crit Defenses+Agility is only 2. That leaves one skill left, and that's only if you go on a skill binge.

Inability to continue the combo? Restarting is only 4s away, 8 if you use Golden Phoenix. Compare to the critical axe which is 4, 10 or 6A.

Survivability? What the heck is a shield going to do? The two enchantments you're taking is everything you need, if you're dying because they're removed, you shouldn't still be in the thick of a melee, you should be kiting away.

And here's the kicker: MS+DB still does more damage than the critical axe will ever do.

afya · Mar 18, 2008, 03:32 AM // 03:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

No, I dont know, I tryed playing an scythesin in PvE one day and one try was enough to traaash the concept big time all together, It is in reality very very bad, yes, u have a chance oh hitting more than one foe but the damage is really low and never reaches more than ~87-105 using an atack skill compared to a Blossom Sin which can hit 120+ damage with one atack alone not counting the mass AoE dmg not just three foes are hit for 80+ damage, we are talking all of them).

Assassin NEVER has energy problems at all, no matter what build he uses, if u do, dont play Assassin.

I dont disagree that Scythesin is a decent-ish, run it if u whant, but it is still no match for a propper Assassin with good old Daggers.

IMO, if u dont fail at playing Assassin u will not consider running a Scyhtesin and understand how inferior it is to a propper Daggersin.

Oh this is so full of fail, the guy clearly never played an Assassin.

Just understand that an Axe Sin doesnt have anything that a Daggersin has not and is no match for a Daggersin, simple as that.

~Super Igor

~

I did a little experiment on stone scale kirin with both builds.
For the scythesin I used 12scythe ,13 critical and r5 luxon.
For the daggersin I used icy with 8 in water magic(give more dmg) ,14 dagger and 11 critical.
scythesin do 88 and 142 with the two attack skills. (elite I used the Way not Reaper

)
daggersin do 81+68=149 with blossom. (elite I used locus coz the speeeeed looks cool~XD)
yes, dagger gives some decent dmgs as well. But consider the scythesin can do critical hit almost every attack not just attack skills, plain attacks from scythesin would do more than daggersin.
I would say both type of build would have its own limitation. blossom aoe vs 3 foe, plain dmg as mentioned, attack chain...etc...

For the energy problem, may be I really not good at sin, but sometimes I really need to switch to my zealous dagger or bring some e-gain attack skill/critical eye.

PS. Please know that the second post isn't mine.

Unreal Havoc · Mar 18, 2008, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

Well first of all I will win 1v1, no matter what mi frend besides we are talking of PvE, 1v1 =/= PvE. >=]

Meh I'd just throw Insidious Parasite on my bar for the fun of it. =]

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Besides why drop MS for some bad Derv scythe elite? U just presented MS like a bad Elite, and its not, it deals HUGE dmg it makes u use atack skills indefinetely, so it generally rocks, and no matter what elite u have on a Scythesin, it will still be dealing much less dmg. And now! try achieving the same effect as my fovorite Shattersin wit a Scyhte (and any other <insert your weapon here>sin! >=]

Well my part in this debate is more towards other weapons in general not just one fixed weapon but the reason is simple. Blocking. Dropping Moebius Strike allows you to use Foxs Promise and then take a high damage weapon like an Axe or Scythe that can deal good AoE damage in skills still in areas faced with extreme amounts of blocking. (Raptors come to mind here, just one example). Sure you could run Shattering Assault but then you lose the AoE and most definitely lose a hell of a lot of damage.

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Nah, its not thinking outside the box and similar crazy stuff, its all about what works best. And if we are still talking boxes then <IYWH>sins ARE NOT OUTSIDE THE BOX, no way they are that, dunno why everybody just insert their weapon into the template and call that original and outside the box, its not that.

~Super Igor

~

To be succesful in Guild Wars requires flexibility. Sticking with one build throughout the whole game will not yield you or your team great results. No one is saying that a specific build is the best build in the game or that it is better. What the majority of us are trying to say is that different situations require different methods, it's up to the individual how he/she adapts and overcomes.

Thinking outside of the box wins.

Super Igor · Mar 18, 2008, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Thirst of all Insidious Parasite on Assassin primary is bad, if I will be running from u there would be no ossible chance u could keep up with the enrgy cost of mantaining it on me.

Thats not the point tho.

I Understand that u are always concerned about blocking enchantements and such things, but Fox's Promise with another weapon will still be extremely inferior damage-wise to the exact same FP build that uses daggers, u still wont be able to do more damage than the Dagger FP does, and then goes the killer of all the <IYWH>FPsin it is... THE SHATTERSIN!... the build which atacks not only vant be blocked but also destroy all of the enemyes defences wilst still dealing HUGE damages, there is no way u can beat it with any <IYWH>sin.

The last point is very stupid Thinking Outside The Box thing, trust me, there is no such thing in reality only the saying itself, and I have never seen it being used by anyone exept noobs that fail miserebly and call it exactly that, that they are thinking outside the box, and every good and succesful player is actually a cheater who cant run anything else but his cookie cutter.

So the point with why every skilled Assassin in the game knows that <IYWH>sin is crap and is generaly much more inneffective than a dagger sin is not that they are stomps who dont have the godly ability to "Think Outside The Box" but its the matter of whatworks best, and dagger sin DOES work best and all the rest <IYWH> crap is inferior.

YET, this doesnt mean they cant adapt to different enviroments and always run their ever-same boring cookie cutter, no, it doesnt mean that, they like any other expirirenced player know what they are doing, they know which of their build would work best in which place, its only that they use the things that WORK.

So what is the conclusion? The conclusion is that running some non working noobie crap covered by the "Outside The Box" sign doesnt win the game!!!

Flexibility, knowledge game and of what does work is what makes the win!

~Super Igor

~

Drakken Breathes Fire · Mar 18, 2008, 04:22 PM // 16:22

Thank you for masturbating all over this thread.

Tyla · Mar 18, 2008, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

I dont disagree that Scythesin is a decent-ish, run it if u whant, but it is still no match for a propper Assassin with good old Daggers.

IMO, if u dont fail at playing Assassin u will not consider running a Scyhtesin and understand how inferior it is to a propper Daggersin.

Wrong.
Daggers are only good for A: Instagib or B: Moebius.
Scythes can spike better and pressure better, with or without monks on a combo which takes around 2 seconds to complete.

Tell me how Scythesins are inferior.
Critical Scythe damage = you go boom.
Dagger pressure = ohai i d-shot ur main atk...

Super Igor · Mar 18, 2008, 05:03 PM // 17:03

Doooood its not the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing PvP, its PvE.

Also, stop saying that oh u gunna D-Shotted crap, Scyhtesins can be D-Shotted twice as good.

Daggers are superior to scythes on an Assassin, u dont know that, u fail.

Lets say u atack a mob, well, u hit some 3 monsters with it for no more than 80 dmg... not much rly and ur useless to ur team.

Then lets immagine u hit every signle montser in the mob with Blossom for 90+dmg and 140+ damage on-target every second... and u can use SY! frequently helping ur team in that way, good huh? yes, its is good.

~Super Igor

~

Tyla · Mar 18, 2008, 05:08 PM // 17:08

I'm talking about PvE aswell.
And some enemies in PvE have D-Shot last time I checked.
Scythesins can't be d-shotted to uselessness as easily, because they still carry pressure without any enchantments or attack skills.
Tell me how Daggersins are any better?

Oh yeah, let's imagine you get a friendly Ritualist secondary or primary to throw some Splinter Weapon on you for epic boom bigger than Moebius Blossom due to scythe's AoE range.

Super Igor · Mar 18, 2008, 05:20 PM // 17:20

If Scythesin's atacks get D-Shotted (D-Shot in HM 5 sec rechrge minimum) hes a dead meat not to tell u about those tasty long-casting enchs Scythesins rely on, and enchs are a good point, Scythesins rely COMPLITELY on them to be effective, and most mobs have necroses with ench removal.

Daggersin doesnt rely on enchs to be deadly which makes him much more versetile, wilst Daggersins can help the whole team to stay alive with SY! And are vertually Invincible due to Dash which Scythesins dont have a place for, lol.

As for the splinter then lol, if u know microing then try dropping SW on urself while starting MS followed up by DB at which point u throw AR on u, now THATS a bomb.

There is no point trying to disprove that Daggersins are MUCH better then the <IYWH>sin crap.

~Super Igor

~

Unreal Havoc · Mar 18, 2008, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

Thirst of all Insidious Parasite on Assassin primary is bad, if I will be running from u there would be no ossible chance u could keep up with the enrgy cost of mantaining it on me.

It was actually a joke. :/

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I Understand that u are always concerned about blocking enchantements and such things, but Fox's Promise with another weapon will still be extremely inferior damage-wise to the exact same FP build that uses daggers, u still wont be able to do more damage than the Dagger FP does, and then goes the killer of all the <IYWH>FPsin it is... THE SHATTERSIN!... the build which atacks not only vant be blocked but also destroy all of the enemyes defences wilst still dealing HUGE damages, there is no way u can beat it with any <IYWH>sin.

Wrong. Unblockable AoE damage wins. In PvE doing the most amount of AoE damage you can is what means the difference between success and failure. How you go about doing it is another story. I can go Wild Blow - Dark Apostasy to remove blocking enchants if I so wish to and still keep up my high amounts of AoE damage that the Shattering Assault Assassin cannot do.

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The last point is very stupid Thinking Outside The Box thing, trust me, there is no such thing in reality only the saying itself, and I have never seen it being used by anyone exept noobs that fail miserebly and call it exactly that, that they are thinking outside the box, and every good and succesful player is actually a cheater who cant run anything else but his cookie cutter.

Having so far obtained Legendary Survivor and Protector of Cantha with my Assassin, only running MS/DB once (against Shiro) I can safely say that you are sorely mistaken, and you of all people having done some of it with me should already know that. You don't need to go MS/DB to be effective in your party, or even wield daggers to. I can do high amounts of spammable AoE critical hit damage with a Bow and spread bleeding at the same time, while staying at a safer distance. That is just an example of versatility more than effectiveness, but you should get my point.

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So the point with why every skilled Assassin in the game knows that <IYWH>sin is crap and is generaly much more inneffective than a dagger sin is not that they are stomps who dont have the godly ability to "Think Outside The Box" but its the matter of whatworks best, and dagger sin DOES work best and all the rest <IYWH> crap is inferior.

Wrong. Different builds have different purposes and not every build requires Daggers to fulfill that purpose. Example: Disrupting Accuracy Assassins do very well against Glint, but a MS/DB Assassin would probably not fair so well. Barrage/Pet in TOPK is generally more effective than running a MS/DB Assassin. Getting the bigger picture yet? Different areas require differnet methods and builds for a parties effectiveness. MS/DB doesn't always supply that effectiveness and requires versatility on the part of the individual to come up with something suitable for the area before him.

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YET, this doesnt mean they cant adapt to different enviroments and always run their ever-same boring cookie cutter, no, it doesnt mean that, they like any other expirirenced player know what they are doing, they know which of their build would work best in which place, its only that they use the things that WORK.

AoE with unblockable enchantment removal works. The Assassin has to pull of a whole unblockable chain without AoE to remove blocking enchantments, Wild Blow with Dark Apostasy does not. You lose the effectivness of MS/DB spam so go for the next best thing for AoE, bring an Axe, Whirlwind attack, etc.

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So what is the conclusion? The conclusion is that running some non working noobie crap covered by the "Outside The Box" sign doesnt win the game!!!

Flexibility, knowledge game and of what does work is what makes the win!

~Super Igor

~

Correct, but then we're not discussing noobie non working crap now are we? Critical Axe builds do work, and some provde something MS/DB and Shattering Assault does not. The flexibility of providing (possibly unblockable dependant on build run) AoE and instant unblockable enchantment removal with good damage if run with Dark Apostasy.

I for one, know how much you love your "Cookie Cutter" but the fact is it is not effective in every situation, and that other builds, regardless of weapon choice, if thought out WELL, can yield pretty impressive results too.

Tyla · Mar 18, 2008, 05:42 PM // 17:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

If Scythesin's atacks get D-Shotted (D-Shot in HM 5 sec rechrge minimum) hes a dead meat not to tell u about those tasty long-casting enchs Scythesins rely on, and enchs are a good point, Scythesins rely COMPLITELY on them to be effective, and most mobs have necroses with ench removal.

Long casting Enchantments? 1/4 isn't long.
Plus a Daggersin would be D-Shotted even easier. No lead = gg.

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Daggersin doesnt rely on enchs to be deadly which makes him much more versetile, wilst Daggersins can help the whole team to stay alive with SY! And are vertually Invincible due to Dash which Scythesins dont have a place for, lol.

I lol'd at the "versatile" bit.
By the way -- you NEED more skillslots on a Daggersin for the combo -- Dash can be put in simply.
P.S: 'Sins are a 1-dimensional class.

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As for the splinter then lol, if u know microing then try dropping SW on urself while starting MS followed up by DB at which point u throw AR on u, now THATS a bomb.

Errr....you missed my point.
Scythe = 3 enemies possible to hit in 1 swing.
And why are you running Splinter Weapon on yourself anyway...?

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There is no point trying to disprove that Daggersins are MUCH better then the <IYWH>sin crap.

I just did.

Unreal Havoc · Mar 18, 2008, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

Long casting Enchantments? 1/4 isn't long.
Plus a Daggersin would be D-Shotted even easier. No lead = gg.

Discussion is PvE, not PvP. MS/DB Assassins tend to use Critical Defenses.

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I lol'd at the "versatile" bit.
By the way -- you NEED more skillslots on a Daggersin for the combo -- Dash can be put in simply.
P.S: 'Sins are a 1-dimensional class.

Disagree, I can run an effective dagger sin for general PvE with just 3 attack skills. Unsuspecting Strike -> Golden Fang Strike -> Death Blossom leaving plenty of room for utility.

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Errr....you missed my point.
Scythe = 3 enemies possible to hit in 1 swing.

Death Blossom = hit all enemies in two swings from one skill.

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And why are you running Splinter Weapon on yourself anyway...?

Splinter Weapon + Death Blossom owns tightly packed npcs, just as Splinter Barrage does. You are not always guaranteed to have a Ritualist in your party.

Tyla · Mar 18, 2008, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

Discussion is PvE, not PvP. MS/DB Assassins tend to use Critical Defenses.

Which a Scythesin could run anyway.
I also said "some enemies in PvE carry D-Shot aswell".

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Disagree, I can run an effective dagger sin for general PvE with just 3 attack skills. Unsuspecting Strike -> Golden Fang Strike -> Death Blossom leaving plenty of room for utility.

Versatility as in multiple uses.
'Sins are a 1-dimensional class and always will be.

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Death Blossom = hit all enemies in two swings from one skill.

Splinter Weapon + Death Blossom owns tightly packed npcs, just as Splinter Barrage does. You are not always guaranteed to have a Ritualist in your party.

I herd heroes were gud.
Volley Splinter > Barrage Splinter.
Plus you aren't attacking multiple enemies with DB, that is just it's secondary effect.

Unreal Havoc · Mar 18, 2008, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

Which a Scythesin could run anyway.
I also said "some enemies in PvE carry D-Shot aswell".

Oh come on... how many times have you actually been D-shotted in PvE? Seriously?

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Versatility as in multiple uses.
'Sins are a 1-dimensional class and always will be.

Elaborate. I can think of a few other uses for an Assassin other than spiking.

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I herd heroes were gud.
Volley Splinter > Barrage Splinter.
Plus you aren't attacking multiple enemies with DB, that is just it's secondary effect.

I wouldn't rely on hero AI for the use of Splinter Weapon on myself, they don't even use it that effectively on themselves compared to a human.

Tyla · Mar 18, 2008, 08:48 PM // 20:48

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Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

Oh come on... how many times have you actually been D-shotted in PvE? Seriously?

The Crystal Desert.
Shiverpeaks.

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Elaborate. I can think of a few other uses for an Assassin other than spiking.

Please explain these uses.
They can't pressure nearly aswell as Warriors, and if they fail their first attack, often they fail their pressure.

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I wouldn't rely on hero AI for the use of Splinter Weapon on myself, they don't even use it that effectively on themselves compared to a human.

Oh, the joys of microing.

segnisletum · Mar 18, 2008, 09:28 PM // 21:28

I can count on my hand the number of times I have been d-shotted in pve as a sin. Sins don't usually get agro, at least competent ones, and with crit defenses up you are pretty safe from it should it occur. So this 1/1000 chance thing is a moot point.

If you are concerned about blocking, run wild strike and that solves 75% of the blocking in pve. Aegis is rare and should you get guardian, tab-space and let casters kill the blocker. You aren't out there alone.

And the shield might be able to offset the sup/major rune people seem to run when doing axe sins.

Axe sinning is a nice change of pace but db-ms is better in terms of damage.

Unreal Havoc · Mar 18, 2008, 09:59 PM // 21:59

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Originally Posted by tyla salanari

The Crystal Desert.
Shiverpeaks.

Critical Defenses comes to mind here.

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Please explain these uses.

Enchantment removal, condition spreading, interrupting, running.

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They can't pressure nearly aswell as Warriors, and if they fail their first attack, often they fail their pressure.

Not if you use a fast recharging chain, or just your common sense in most cases. Truth is, if you (anyone in general that is) fail to land your first attack, you fail at Assassin, simple as that. A good example of pressure on an Assassin is running Golden Fox Strike-Wild Strike-Shattering Assault along with Sight Beyond Sight or Assassins Remedy. Unblockable and unblindable chain, with enchantment removal = good pressure.

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Oh, the joys of microing.

The time you spend microing can just as easily be done on your own skill bar. Without interfering in the actions of your heroes which can probably do better things with their time than supply you with Splinter Weapon.

Super Igor · Mar 19, 2008, 11:36 AM // 11:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

Errr....you missed my point.
Scythe = 3 enemies possible to hit in 1 swing.
And why are you running Splinter Weapon on yourself anyway...?

I so gored engined at this lol. QQ

Dood, have u ever heard of microing ur heroes? no? I think it turned out that u never did it and run with Hero builds safelyhidden with u never even bothering to watch what they are doing, this explains why u cant run a propper Dagger sin.

I will explain what I meant anyway; u run into a mob having a channeling Rt hero with AR and SW, u pull pull of DPS first, when the animation starts rolling u mcro your hero to cast SW on u, this way when u follow up with DB (dual atack = double strike, remember) u will have two instant triggers of SW + Huge AoE from DB which is a pwnage, while the animation of DB starts u make your hero cast AR on u so by the time u start rolling MS AR is triggered alongside with SW, this way u get the similar effect to DB, by the time u pull of another DB u should have 2 SW atacks remaining if u havent achieved a double strike with MS, now that isnt a real bomb.

I cant be bothered reading everything u have written here so far, but Ive seen Unreal frequently mentioning the Barrage/Bow sin.

Now if u read carefully everythig I have written in trhis thread so far then u will discover I have never even touched the bowsin, u kno why? Because they are in reality very great builds to play with, and in some places were going hacking stuff in meelee is counter productive the just own (like snowman's layer), these builds also mke u stay out of harm, and make the escape less risky then using Dash.

So bow sins are good and I sometimes use the build for myself as well, and dont put them in line with other <IYWH>sins, bow sins have a purpose, bow sins work.

~Super Igor

~

Tyla · Mar 19, 2008, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

I so gored engined at this lol. QQ

Dood, have u ever heard of microing ur heroes? no? I think it turned out that u never did it and run with Hero builds safelyhidden with u never even bothering to watch what they are doing, this explains why u cant run a propper Dagger sin.

Eh? Explain what you mean. 'dropping SW on yourself'...
That implys to me, YOU ARE USING IT ON YOURSELF.

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I will explain what I meant anyway; u run into a mob having a channeling Rt hero with AR and SW, u pull pull of DPS first, when the animation starts rolling u mcro your hero to cast SW on u, this way when u follow up with DB (dual atack = double strike, remember) u will have two instant triggers of SW + Huge AoE from DB which is a pwnage, while the animation of DB starts u make your hero cast AR on u so by the time u start rolling MS AR is triggered alongside with SW, this way u get the similar effect to DB, by the time u pull of another DB u should have 2 SW atacks remaining if u havent achieved a double strike with MS, now that isnt a real bomb.

Lmao. IAS attacks say hi. And you're hitting 90~ damage freely on enemies (without the attack skills), as practically free pressure. With attack skills you're doing some huge damage. With Splinter Weapon, you hit 3 enemies in a row, and deal much, much more AoE damage.

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I cant be bothered reading everything u have written here so far, but Ive seen Unreal frequently mentioning the Barrage/Bow sin.

Now if u read carefully everythig I have written in trhis thread so far then u will discover I have never even touched the bowsin, u kno why? Because they are in reality very great builds to play with, and in some places were going hacking stuff in meelee is counter productive the just own (like snowman's layer), these builds also mke u stay out of harm, and make the escape less risky then using Dash.

...What? I was responding to Unreal's posts...

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So bow sins are good and I sometimes use the build for myself as well, and dont put them in line with other <IYWH>sins, bow sins have a purpose, bow sins work.

Anything works in PvE.

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Originally Posted by Unreal Havok

Not if you use a fast recharging chain, or just your common sense in most cases. Truth is, if you (anyone in general that is) fail to land your first attack, you fail at Assassin, simple as that. A good example of pressure on an Assassin is running Golden Fox Strike-Wild Strike-Shattering Assault along with Sight Beyond Sight or Assassins Remedy. Unblockable and unblindable chain, with enchantment removal = good pressure.

If you fail to land your first attack...? That can be caused by a number of things. Enchant Removal on your SBS or AR then blind. Simply kiting...
The thing that 'Sins lack compared to Warriors is a decent IAS with normal weapon strength for free pressure. And a speedboost.

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The time you spend microing can just as easily be done on your own skill bar. Without interfering in the actions of your heroes which can probably do better things with their time than supply you with Splinter Weapon.

I herd macros were gud.

Super Igor · Mar 19, 2008, 04:25 PM // 16:25

U c, If u like running a Inneffective scythein so much then get a gay Dervish and play around with a Scythe, u will probably notice how much better it is!

Nearly every mob in the game has some sort of ench stripment or an interrupt, Scythesins completely rely on easyly stripped enchs to be even half effective, these enchs get stripped, and the fact of them having a 1sec casting time makes them so easyly interrupted.

Only viable weapon sin is a Bowsin, quite poor damage is compensated with higher chance of survival, which is surely v.good.

~Super Igor

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