Curse

EmptySkull · Mar 31, 2008, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbobusa

I'd say 40% cast +1 attribute staff

That's what I run and recommend. Add a Bloodstained insignia and you're golden. With this combo you get fast minions with the very often insta-cast for a minion.

Turbobusa · Mar 31, 2008, 04:05 PM // 16:05

You just made me realise that I have a pair of bloostained boots in my storage I don't even use lol.

The Meth · Mar 31, 2008, 04:14 PM // 16:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Because Shambling Horrors suck anyway?
Oh, and where did you get the idea that a minion critical hit does no more damage than an ordinary hit? You can't have tried using an N/P MM build if you believe that.

Since when did shambling horrors suck? The only thing better then shambling horrors is bone fiends. Shambling horrors is golden when you are low on corpses and still need some blocking power. The only drawback is that it has a longer recharge, but you have bone fiends to spam anyway.

Yes, minions can critical but their critical's don't deal increased damage. The test for this is to use Go for they eye's + Find their Weakness. You will see that a minion can cause a critical (signified by deep wound) and still do low damage.
I have personally tested this and the info is somewhere on one of the wiki's, if I can be bothered to find it. And I do use N/P's (especially for olias when he MM's) but just not gfte!

Even if minions DID benefit from criticaling, the benefit is still most certainly negligable, because again, 1 level makes almost no difference to critical hit rate, and you only gain that level 20% of the time.

I'm not saying that +1/20 is an absolutely horrible weapon to run and you are a noob for even thinking about it (that is reserved for flesh golem users lol) but since we are talking about maximum efficiency here I have to state that +1/20 is nearly always worse then most of the other mods. Show me an instance in which +1/20 is actually performing better then the other mods, with the appropriate mathematical proof of it, and I will agree with you. Until then, mathematical proof beats your opinions.

Calista Blackblood · Mar 31, 2008, 06:40 PM // 18:40

how did a thread asking a simple question turn into people throwing numbers at each other like accountants on their lunch hour?

@OP:if you can see around the text walls a lot of whats posted is solid advice.but try not to limit your weapon choice to props.theres a trading section here and guru auctions of course where you can pick up what are imho superb weapons like Ghial's Staff and The Nightbringer

if you only have prophecies check with sellers that they can meet you in LA or somewhere,most should be able to

*prepares for flames*

Moloch Vein · Mar 31, 2008, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

Yes, minions can critical but their critical's don't deal increased damage.

Yes, they do. They just don't automatically achieve maximum damage plus critical boost. If you've used an N/P MM build with GfTE! you would've noticed that the damage spikes with the shout.

Shambling Horrors are how to weaken your minion army by two levels simply because you believe that Bleeding has any significance in PvE whatsoever, apart from condition-trigger.

Oh, and by the way and all that... as for the full treatise about the Master/Domain thingie... I'm just sorting out the obvious errors in your postings first... let's get to that when you've understood those.

Chthon · Mar 31, 2008, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

about the +1/20 mod.

As Carinae pointed out, it gets you 20hp and 3AL (fiends) or 4AL (horrors) whenever it bumps up a minion. That alone is probably better than what you can get out of other mods. (See below.)

Quote:

As you can see, the bone fiend gains 1-2 damage with the +1 level.

Yes. So? You seem to fail to appreciate that the minion is going to keep on doing that +1.5 damage over and over again. Let's say that your minion is going to see 2 minutes of combat time over its unlifetime. That +1.5 per hit is going to add up to 97 damage. Are any of the other mods you could put in place of 20% +1 death (see below) going to do 97 damage when they trigger?

Quote:

By the way, minion criticals don't increase damage done.

Yes they do. Minions don't get a max roll on their weapon like player characters, but they still get the +20Baseline, and that means more damage. I think if you sat down and looked at your data you would find that none of the criticals was less than the minimum non-critical times SqRt(2).

Quote:

Since when did shambling horrors suck?

Since the NF beta.
1. The recharge is horrifically bad.
2. They have a bad, bad, bad anti-synergy with the minion cap. They can do a nasty chain reaction thing that kills off perfectly healthy minions and screws up your soul reaping for the next 15 sec.
3. They turn into jagged horrors, and jagged horrors are just inferior to other horrors -- less armor, less hp, less damage, and the one promising thing they've got, the bleeding, turns out to be a wasted opportunity because of the stupid minion AI.

Finally, what mod are you going to use instead? 20% +1 Death is a staff suffix or a focus inscription, so it's only in competition with mods you could put in those same slots. Let's take a little survey of those mods to see why none of them really give you much benefit:

Staff Suffixes:

Fortitude/Devotion/Endurance/Valor: For reasons I hope I don't have to explain, +hp is a penalty rather than a benefit on MM weapons.
Defense: A solid, useful mod. But it's not like you're supposed to be taking hits, so you're probably better off with the added defense on the minions via 20% +1 Death.
Shelter/Warding: Inferior to Defense.
Enchanting: Useful pretty much only if you're using Mystic Regeneration. Most other MM-related enchantments (masochism, dark bond, infuse condition) already have such a low cost-per-duration that you'd gain very little by stretching them out; AotL should be cast on the recharge anyway, so the duration doesn't matter, and OoU is not an enchantment.
Species-Slaying: Do I really need to explain why this is worthless on a caster weapon?

Focus Inscriptions:

Various +AL Inscriptions: Some are decent; some are not; none is terribly useful since you're not supposed to be getting hit anyway. You're better off improving minion durability instead.
Run for Your Life/Sheltered by Faith/Nothing to Fear/Luck of the Draw: Ditto the AL inscriptions.
20HRT(death) (Forget Me Not): A decent mod, if you have several key spells with longer recharges. Do you? Probably not.
- BotM recharges in 2sec, so you'd only be saving just 1 sec an extra 16% of the time -- hardly worth it.
- OoU lasts 5sec and recharges in 5sec, so there's no benefit there.
- Bone fiend and bone horror recharge in 5sec, and that's usually plenty fast to keep up with the rate of bodies becoming available.
- Vampiric horror takes 15 to recharge, so that would definitely benefit, though you could always just summon a fiend instead.
- Shambling horror would benefit hugely, but shambling horror sucks and you probably shouldn't be using it anyway (and you could always just summon a fiend instead).
- Saving 10 sec off the time before AotL's next heal would be pretty nice, so maybe it would be useful there.
- Heal Area, Mystic Regeneration, Masochism, and PvE-skills aren't death magic skills so they don't benefit at all (and don't really need a recharge boost in the first place).
- (I should also note that HRT on Jagged Bones would be very nice indeed, but Jagged Bones is a minion bomber skill, not a minion master skill.)
In sum, you're likely to have one, maybe two, skills that would really benefit from more HRT. And, unless you're making some less-than-optimal (AotL) or very-less-than-optimal (shambling horror) skill choices, your biggest gain is going to be 7.5 sec off vampiric horrors 16% of the time. I think I'd rather have the 3/4 armor, 20hp, and extra damage from stronger minions.
10HRT(all) (Serenity Now): Inferior to 20HRT(death). 10% is just "meh."

As I hope you can see, it's certainly not the case that 20% +1 death is performing worse than the other competing mods. All but two of the other options for those spots aren't even worth considering at all. Of the two that are worth considering, enchanting only becomes worthwhile if you've got mystic regen on your bar, and a second 20HRT mod only becomes worthwhile if you've got an unusual number of important, long-recharge death skills on your bar. Under these special circumstances, these mods are worth considering, and that's why I put them on my list earlier (though, truth be told, I still wouldn't choose them over 20% +1 death); outside of those special circumstances, they aren't worth considering.

Moloch Vein · Mar 31, 2008, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Seems I can stick to being lazy after all. Thanks Chthon.

Oh and by the way...

+1/20 Death will:

Heal for 5HP more, every 1 in 5 casts of Blood of the Master.
Increase duration by 2 seconds and heal by 12HP, every 1 in 5 casts of Aura of the Lich.
Increase the armor ignoring damage by 1, every 1 in 5 casts of Order of Undeath.
Increase the duration by 2 seconds and the degeneration by -1, every 1 in 5 casts of Well of Suffering.

There are further examples...

Turbobusa · Mar 31, 2008, 08:37 PM // 20:37

Shambling is nice for discord builds. Just wanted to point that out.

The Meth · Mar 31, 2008, 08:54 PM // 20:54

As for the minion criticals, very well I will assume yourself to be correct if you have proven that to be true through testing. Now lets look at what 1 lvl will actually help: lets assume the difference for 1 level to be about inline with raising the attribute for weapons (since actual testing is nigh impossible, this will have to do). The minion will gain about 1.5% chance to critical, multiplied by the 20% chance to get the minion. In the end, the average damage granted through critical hits is: (.015 * .2 * (17+49)/2 * 2^(1/2)) = .14 damage increase. That's about a .4% damage increase. So I think we can say the critical rate from increasing minion levels is unnoticeable.

In any case, let me make my arguement a bit simpler:

When is casting a single spell with +1 attribute better then casting the same spell twice. HSR mods and master of my domain mods have the same 20% chance, so we can discard much of the unneeded calculations. Necro's ALWAYS have available energy, so the is no downside to casting a single spell more often like other classes.

Also, why does everyone think +enchanting is only useful for mystic healing? Do I really need to remind people that Death Nova is an enchantment?

And I disagree with your thoughts on shambling horrors, let me explain my ideal MM minion-army: 7 fiends, 3 shambling horrors. Why? fiends deal the best damage damage, the shambling horrors will provide the most effective bodyblocking, because upon death they are recreated. lvl 16 minion are not much weaker then lvl 18 (considering you have a lvl 18 AND a lvl 16 minion taking the fire, you stand nothing to lose anyway). Also, a jagged minion actually does MORE dps a bone horror. Jagged minions do approximately 9 dps + 6 dps from bleeding, while bone horrors do 11 dps, so shambling horrors are also the second best damage minions you can have. The 25 recharge is also perfectly fine for keeping a few shambling horrors up.

In any case, I feel this is rather pointless discussion. Having even a crappy MM in your group makes PvE dead easy, and its not even my opinion that a +1/20 mod labels you a retard or anything. But in the end the greatest effect is not achieved with +1/20. It may be the most glamorous (yay I have lvl 19 minions!!!!), but it is not the best. But in the end, the difference between mods will never make a difference in pve.

Moloch Vein · Mar 31, 2008, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

Also, why does everyone think +enchanting is only useful for mystic healing? Do I really need to remind people that Death Nova is an enchantment?

Death Nova lasts for 30 seconds.

Quote:

In any case, I feel this is rather pointless discussion.

I agree, you're grasping at straws.

Chthon · Mar 31, 2008, 09:54 PM // 21:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

When is casting a single spell with +1 attribute better then casting the same spell twice.

When it's a minion spell. You're capped at 10, so casting another minion when you've already got a healthy army is totally wasteful; but getting a higher level minion is beneficial.

Quote:

Also, why does everyone think +enchanting is only useful for mystic healing?

Because it is.

Quote:

Do I really need to remind people that Death Nova is an enchantment?

1. Minion bomber skill, not minion master.
2. Lasts for 30 sec -- way longer than you need anyway.

Quote:

lvl 16 minion are not much weaker then lvl 18

Yes, it is.

Quote:

Also, a jagged minion actually does MORE dps a bone horror.

One, yes; several, no. They have a bad tendency of all hitting the same already-bleeding target, so that's 1 jagged horror doing better damage than the average horror, and the rest doing less. Once you get about 3 of them, your total damage is less than 3 regular horrors.

Quote:

In any case, I feel this is rather pointless discussion.

I agree with Moloch.

Carinae · Apr 01, 2008, 12:01 AM // 00:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Since the NF beta.
1. The recharge is horrifically bad.
2. They have a bad, bad, bad anti-synergy with the minion cap. They can do a nasty chain reaction thing that kills off perfectly healthy minions and screws up your soul reaping for the next 15 sec.
3. They turn into jagged horrors, and jagged horrors are just inferior to other horrors -- less armor, less hp, less damage, and the one promising thing they've got, the bleeding, turns out to be a wasted opportunity because of the stupid minion AI.

Point #2 is by FAR the worst part about Shamblings and even that wouldn't be an issue without the SR Timer (grrr) breaking everything about an MM build. Shamblings (and Jagged Bones) do BAD THINGS to your SR returns.

However, in their defense, they DO allow you to stand an army up fast, and that does redeem them somewhat since you'll be in 'startup mode' almost constantly in HM.

Vamps are probably (almost certainly) a better choice with the SR Timer in place.

-----

Wiki is wrong. The damage range on level 19 Fiends is 18-52. Not a big difference, but my numbers are right.

If it follows the weapon mastery pattern, then level 19s have a 1.4% higher chance to Crit per hit. Spread that over the lifetime of the minion and it adds up. Get a few 19s running around and it becomes substantial.

And level 19s DO accumulate, it's not at all uncommon to have 3-5 of them in a batch. Level 18s have less armor and less health, which means they naturally die sooner, but it also means monsters go after the 18s first. Finally, the Minion Cap preferentially kills 18s over 19s on average, because it kills the minion with the lowest health when it triggers. This is an 18 more often than not.

Testing with 10 level 19 minions in the testing grounds shows that 19s DO get 1-3 higher DPS per minion. The STUPID BARRELS prevent me from giving exact numbers.

Just FYI: Assuming that minions get the sqrt(2) bonus on Crits, then it looks as though the non-crit damage range for 19s is 18-37, and for 18s it's 17-34. When they Crit, they just get the sqrt(2) multiplier bonus.

Trvth Jvstice · Apr 01, 2008, 12:52 AM // 00:52

How did you do that "You are averaging 109 damage per second in the last 5 seconds." thing?

Carinae · Apr 01, 2008, 01:17 AM // 01:17

You mean how did I get it reported? or how did I get 109 dps?

Trvth Jvstice · Apr 01, 2008, 01:52 AM // 01:52

How did you gt it reported?

Carinae · Apr 01, 2008, 02:04 AM // 02:04

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Master_of_Damage

Battle Iles testing grounds.

mtm · Apr 07, 2008, 01:44 AM // 01:44

Carinae & Chthon - thank you so much for fantastic, well informed posts that keep away from flaming (well, we're all tempted sometimes

...)

DDL · Apr 07, 2008, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

And level 19s DO accumulate.

This is the key point, really: any kind of assumption that

"something that happens 20% of the time"

is exactly the same as

"something 1/5th as good happening all the time"

breaks when applied to anything that is subject to extended external pressures, like minions.

All of The Meth's maths would apply perfectly if level 18 and level 19 minions died at exactly the same rate, but they don't. If we were to take a control environment, casting a fresh minions from an endless supply of corpses*, the mechanics would kill low health minions first, which would tend to be the level 18s, since they're starting from a lower health standpoint. So you'd naturally get an accumulation of level 19s through guildwars' own version of "natural selection" (though 'natural' seems a strange term to apply to zombies).

Now add in the fact that enemy AI goes for weaker, lower armour, lower health minions, and you have even more negative pressure on the poor wee level 18s.

So it doesn't matter that you're adding them in at only a 20% rate: if they're being cleared at a lower rate than the level 18s, they'll build up.

*incidentally, this would be awesome.

Shadowmere · Apr 07, 2008, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by DDL

All of The Meth's maths would apply perfectly if level 18 and level 19 minions died at exactly the same rate, but they don't. If we were to take a control environment, casting a fresh minions from an endless supply of corpses*

*incidentally, this would be awesome.

Correct me if I'm wrong but, I believe the villager corpses near the necromancer trainers in Churrhir Fields are infinitely exploitable.

The only downside to this is there's very few targets for minions in the area. It would still be great to test minion "natural selection" however.

chris1234565 · Apr 07, 2008, 09:49 PM // 21:49

id say the woe speader since its cheap and effective