Curse

MisterB · Mar 25, 2008, 06:11 AM // 06:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by CE Devilman

the way I see it:

U kill 1X in a sec ..Anet server ..ok..send data back...U got a drop.
U kill 20X in a sec ..Anet server ..ok ..got a lot of data...cut down to keep a good ping..U dont get drops

I don't think ANet's server, nor their software for that matter, has any trouble assigning large amounts of drops when large groups die at the same time. The phenomena being discussed in this thread is a part of, or in addition to, the loot scaling update.

Just from my own personal experience, I can recall every foe dropping a reward in such places as the Battle at Turai's Procession(Splinter/Barrage,EoE), or even Griffon farming with my wammo. I often balled up 20-30 griffons at a time. There are probably still screens and videos you can find from before loot scaling was introduced where large groups die all at once and each foe drops a reward.

manitoba1073 · Mar 25, 2008, 07:19 AM // 07:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

Dude, you are so full of crap...I'm certain software developers programming a game that sells 5 million units are advanced enough at their craft to not add sticky tape and chewing gum to their code. And for the record, yes, i am a software developer so I do have limited insight...you can't dismiss me with 'you need more computer coding training'.

I have little doubt the lootscale code is working exactly as intended - 15 enemies dying at once is going to make bugger all difference to your average CPU and GPU capable of millions of calculations per second...the computer is not going to 'hang' and it's not a 'bug'. You're engaged in pure speculation backed up by no evidence at all. Your statements are always made as fact when they are nothing more than theory. You don't know the inner workings of the code, none of us do. You're making guesses based on your own observations and that amounts to nothing more than just one more asshole's opinion.

We know little more than this - killing foes one by one 'may' increase chalk drops. It can also dramatically increase the time to complete a run, so drops over time needs to be factored in. There also 'appears' to be a decay in the quality of drops in a given location over time - you tend to get your best drops on the first few runs. Maybe we can link this to the buried treasures around Nightfall and 'assume' that you shouldn't farm that location more than once a month.

All of this is based on subjective experience and results vary from person to person - we can't document them as fact when none of it can be proven as true for all users and there is cold, hard, replicable evidence to dispute the AoE vs Single Foe theory. This thread is the closest thing we have to proof that drops are determined and delegated upon the instance spawn. There is no difference between blue, grape, gold and green drops. Some variance exists in cash and chalk. Therefore AoE vs single makes no difference at all UNLESS you want merch food.

Thats so good of you Im so sure the mods will be happy to delete this whole section dedicated to ingame bugs just on your recomendation that there is no bugs in this game.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/f...play.php?f=259

Now you want to find out yourself how the drops are then try every combination of things that would cause the AoE bug. The thread you mentioned if true then we would not being seeing the ToD/AoE bug if loot was determined when you entered the instance. You wouldnt see the bug either if loot system was based on determining what the drop was first before selection of who gets it.

For your record I'm been dealing with computer code since the early 80's. So I think I know a few things about it too.

MisterB · Mar 25, 2008, 07:24 AM // 07:24

On what basis do you claim there is a bug when the majority of the code runs on ANet's server? How can you know whether it is a mistake, and not working as intended(by limiting the number of drops)? Are you also privy to ANet's game design philosophy in this matter?

Antithesis · Mar 25, 2008, 07:42 AM // 07:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

Thats so good of you Im so sure the mods will be happy to delete this whole section dedicated to ingame bugs just on your recomendation that there is no bugs in this game.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/f...play.php?f=259

You're clutching at straws. Of course there are bugs in the game, but you can bet AoE drop 'hangs because the CPU can't handle multiple foes dying concurrently' isn't one of them. Where's your evidence? 3 charr drops in Nolani...stop the press, Manitoba's discovered a bug! All hail Manitoba, you are indeed the god you profess to be.

BTW, we're still waiting for those req7 max weapons you claim are still dropping. WTB credibility...

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

For your record I'm been dealing with computer code since the early 80's. So I think I know a few things about it too.

That about sums it up for me. Your code must be impeccable.

manitoba1073 · Mar 25, 2008, 07:58 AM // 07:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

You're clutching at straws. Of course there are bugs in the game, but you can bet AoE drop 'hangs because the CPU can't handle multiple foes dying concurrently' isn't one of them. Where's your evidence? 3 charr drops in Nolani...stop the press, Manitoba's discovered a bug! All hail Manitoba, you are indeed the god you profess to be.

BTW, we're still waiting for those req7 max weapons you claim are still dropping. WTB credibility...

You mean the official confirmation from anet that they do infact still drop.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile

I spoke with our designer who specializes in items, John. John told me that yes, Req 7 items do drop, but "they are super rare." John knows his stuff, and if he tells me a definite and immediate "yes," as he did, then I believe that he is certain that his answer is accurate.

He's a busy guy, and I got the answer that was requested. I hope you'll understand that I'd rather not go bug him for "is that max this or that skin or those specs or which campaign or what chest or...?" I think it's cool that they drop, and I guess over time, the odds improve that one will be offered for sale or trade. Well, it may be unless the person who gets the drop values having it over selling it, of course. If I got one, I don't think I'd ever part with it!

I thought you were one of them thats still pissed off that I let people know they were still dropping.

Antithesis · Mar 25, 2008, 08:00 AM // 08:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

I thought you were one of them thats still pissed off that I let people know they were still dropping.

I'm not pissed off, i couldn't care less. You still haven't provided the proof. Show a screenshot (from anyone, anywhere) and you'll go up one notch in my book.

You have a history of posting unsubstantiated crap as fact and that does piss me off. I'm not questioning your motives, but your methods leave a bit to be desired. There's a vast gap between 'i think' and 'i know'.

manitoba1073 · Mar 25, 2008, 09:33 AM // 09:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

I'm not pissed off, i couldn't care less. You still haven't provided the proof. Show a screenshot (from anyone, anywhere) and you'll go up one notch in my book.

You have a history of posting unsubstantiated crap as fact and that does piss me off. I'm not questioning your motives, but your methods leave a bit to be desired. There's a vast gap between 'i think' and 'i know'.

Unsubstantiated crap. thats a funny one. I just dont like repeating myself numerous times. Now name one thing that was unsubstaniated. I think you need to go back and actually read my threads.

Antithesis · Mar 25, 2008, 09:45 AM // 09:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

Unsubstantiated crap. thats a funny one. I just dont like repeating myself numerous times. Now name one thing that was unsubstaniated. I think you need to go back and actually read my threads.

Exhibit A

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

What happens when you kill multiple things at the same time the loot system (bugs or hangs) for a sec.

Exhibit B

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

It doesnt matter the size of the groups. All that matters is they die at the same time. That is where you see the bug. It has always been in game,but you only saw it in full groups ie someone getting most of the drops when you nuked them in one shot.

Exhibit C

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

Talarian it does matter where or what type of damage it is, its only from the timing of there deaths.
which is why it seems if you stagger there deaths that it seems like more drops, by not letting the loot selection system get hang-up.

Age cant remember if you remember the old FoW bug with how item selection was? This is a left over from when Anet tried to fix that. instead of redoing the code they patched it.

Exhibit D

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

Yes thats basically what it is. Its not that they are being lost though its just that with LS in that the code is not properly selecting who gets the drops when you kill them at once. It hangs or hiccups whatever you want to call it.

Where's your proof this bug exists rather than the code working as intended? Pure speculation from a wild imagination...it's all in your head unless you can back it up.

Talarian · Mar 25, 2008, 03:01 PM // 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

It dont hang or hiccup that long. However you do see where some people will get a majority of the drops in a full group when you do AoE a big drop. If you cant believe that a computer can hiccup or hang like that then you need more computer coding training. Im not being mean Im just saying that they do. That comes from all the patch work that Anet has done to the loot system.

And there was me thinking a degree in Computer Science would be enough qualification to comment on something like this...

Seeing as you haven't actually expanded on your original statement, I'm still going with my theory. AoE farming is ALWAYS faster than individual farming. Therefore, as I said before, it would be unfair for the game to reward both farming types the same. I have a fast and effective farm that only takes a minute, so I shall use this as the basis for testing all these theories. I shall do the run 10 times killing all mobs at the same time, 10 times killing them one by one (if I can adapt the build which I am sure I can), and hopefully with some assistance from my guild 10 times with a full team killing them all at the same time. These results should better show how the system works.

My Lipgloss is Cool · Mar 25, 2008, 07:21 PM // 19:21

In my experiance (and limited evidence from my earlier screenshots) while getting less white drops while AoE farming, I always seem to get the same/simliar amounts of event items (Shamrock Ales, Four Leaf Clovers, Chocolate bunnies, Gold eggs, etc.) as when farming with SV. So I'd have to agree with Talarian here. Faster killing causes more drop chances, so Anet balenced it out so AoE killing gets compairable drop:time as single-target killing and that event items just have their own seperate drop system (which makes sense, as you can get event drops + normal drops from one death)

But, like has been said, we can't KNOW why things happen. We can only speculate.

MLiC

manitoba1073 · Mar 26, 2008, 05:48 AM // 05:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

Exhibit A

Exhibit B

Exhibit C

Exhibit D

Where's your proof this bug exists rather than the code working as intended? Pure speculation from a wild imagination...it's all in your head unless you can back it up.

A:- Funny not the only that says that

Quote:

Originally Posted by ragnagard

And if you use aoe skills like crystal wave / tenhai, inferno, etc... you can just note the "lag" produced and the drop... sometimes even if there is no drop or too low. weird haha

So much for unsubstantiated if others see it to.

B:-So you're telling me you've never been in a full group before huh. Thats great to hear.

C:-How is that unsustatiated its exactly what everyone is seeing with the loss of loot. Unless you are now claiming people really are not seeing it. Havent you been around long enough to have played FoW back then to remember when there was the assignment bug in certain drops. Apparently not. Read here it does mention it when you find it.
http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forum...ghlight=player

D:-Proof that its a bug. Have you not been reading all the threads. Seriously you think its intentional that Anet would reduce drops based on the skills you used. But since you seem to think it maybe intentional and not a bug that if you use AoE that it reduces your drops I refer you back to your nice little comment about the 3 charr.

If it was intentional that using an AoE skill reduces the drops that that nice little picture shouldnt exist. As they are the same mob killed at the same time with an AoE skill.

Heres you picture of someone else posting a q7 drop it was posted before I even started any of those threads I guess you must have missed the memo huh

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tantra Existantance

This dropped while I was Vanquishing Cantha, crap mods...oh well

BTW he posted it on 2-18-08

Antithesis · Mar 26, 2008, 06:19 AM // 06:19

I've racked up over 3000 hours in 34 months, 99% of it PvE. Heroes didn't exist before NF and a party of henchies was crap, so i guess you could say i've done my time in 8-man groups.

Because one guy reports a problem with lag on AoE drops on his PC, you've made an ASSUMPTION that it's a bug and state it as fact. My PC doesn't lag on AoE even with three GW's running at the same time.

Because one guy picked up r7 daggers (doesn't say when he picked them up) you ASSUME they can drop from any sub-level 20 mob (that was your claim, not a Vanq drop) in any campaign and state it as fact. Where are your r7 NM drops?

Because some guy in an ancient QQ thread stated 'my ele doesn't get as many drops' you ASSUME there's a bug with the drop system and state it as fact. To be honest i don't have the time to read 20+ pages, so if you want to make your point provide a link to the specific post.

Using a group of 4 charr in a 4-man zone is too limited to be used as proof - it's a convenient example in an attempt to promote your own biased theory. The same can be said about Skinny Corpse's thread, but i'm more inclined to believe results that have been replicated by numerous people relating to the drops of an entire zone.

You latch onto any and every theory and state is as fact. It's not...just because one guy has an experience does not make it valid for all. And even if it is replicable, how do you know the results aren't as intended?

And how could you possibly know for a FACT that this relates to Anet botching the lootscaling code...you make statements like "the loot system (bugs or hangs) for a sec.", "That is where you see the bug.", "This is a left over from when Anet tried to fix that. instead of redoing the code they patched it." and "its just that with LS in that the code is not properly selecting who gets the drops when you kill them at once. It hangs or hiccups whatever you want to call it."...you're making it up to fit in with your own paradigm and calling it a bug. The drop system doesn't work as you want it to, that doesn't mean it's not working as intended. The simple answer is, you don't know sh*t from clay unless you've had direct access to the server-side source code.

I have no idea what point your trying to make besides making unfounded claims that the entire drop system is bugged on AoE. If AoE makes a difference, how do you explain Skinny Corpse's results? And if AoE makes no difference, how do you explain the Luxon Assassin results from My Lipgloss is Cool? The difference between the two can be explained by the loot scaling system - the only difference is chalks so AoE vs Single comes into play. How do these replicable results fit in with your bug theory? Even if there is a bug, based on Skinny's results you're only losing chalks...so who really cares?

QQ less, play more, there's jack sh*t you can do about it.

Talarian · Mar 26, 2008, 02:00 PM // 14:00

Firstly, I fail to see where Skinny Corpse's thread is relevant to this discussion. Neither SoJ nor SV cause AoE damage, and as such the results therein do not apply to the situation we are trying to resolve here.

Now, I reckon there could be two phenomena at work here. The first is that the system is hard coded to provide fewer drops from AoE damage. This is the most logical situation, because otherwise we would be seeing a lot of very rich Elementalists who can earn the same as anyone else in a quarter of the time. My experiments so far seem to back this up, with the largest number of drops from AoE being 4 from 10 mobs (out of 10 runs, where the average was more like 2), and the largest number of drops from killing 1 by 1 being 7 from 10 mobs (out of 3 runs so far, the average being 6).

The second phenomena, which is pure speculation on my part relates to the situation manitoba alluded to where in a full group, one member will receive all the drops when a number of mobs are simultaneously killed (be it with AoE or luck). It is possible that the loot selection process only polls every half second or so to account for differences in lag on the client side. So if all the mobs die within a certain window, the loot selection system will provide all the drops to one person. This would not be a bug, it would be a sensible system to implement in an MMO where everyone experiences different pings.

The problem with manitoba's suggestion is that it assumes that when you enter an area as a solo farmer, 7 "invisible" team mates are actually created to assign drops to. This is ridiculous, as it would be far far far simpler to just divide drop rates by 4/6/8 and assign all drops to the person who is in the instance. I severely doubt the person responsible for the loot assignment code is such a moron that they went for the former system, because the amount of extra coding required would be horrendous. This would explain why AoE farmers never receive more than 1 drop per 4 mobs on loot scaled items. Obviously items that are not loot scaled, such as rare materials, tomes, etc. will drop at the same rate regardless of the way to mobs were killed. This is probably coded into the AoE system too, as there is a reason these drops are exempt from loot scaling.

In future manitoba, work through your theories logically, looking at all the possible reasons why an observation may be occurring, and pick the most likely one, not the first one you stumble across or the one you like the sound of most. It would save the rest of us a lot of time arguing with you over things that simply cannot be true.

My Lipgloss is Cool · Mar 26, 2008, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talarian

Firstly, I fail to see where Skinny Corpse's thread is relevant to this discussion. Neither SoJ nor SV cause AoE damage, and as such the results therein do not apply to the situation we are trying to resolve here.

In groups of the same enemy, SoJ will often kill several enemies at the same time. And although it isn't AoE, it does hurt several enemies at the same time.

MLiC

Antithesis · Mar 26, 2008, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talarian

Firstly, I fail to see where Skinny Corpse's thread is relevant to this discussion. Neither SoJ nor SV cause AoE damage, and as such the results therein do not apply to the situation we are trying to resolve here.

It's relevant because it was a test of AoE vs Single - regardless of the kill method, the drops of both lootscaled and exempt items were almost exactly the same. If the loot system was bugged (as manitoba states) and hung on AoE (SoJ often kills multiple foes concurrently), why are they still getting the same drops? I do get your point however and suggest that Skinny has another go at his tests with an AoE Ele vs SV.

The best we can do thus far is assume that AoE does have an effect (no arguments here) but does it impact more than chalk drops? If it doesn't, how does the loot system manage the number of exempt items an AoE build receives because it can perform more farming runs in the same time? The answer to that was the anti-farming code which we're led to believe no longer exists. Skinny's test arena is a useful tool to prove or disprove this argument.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talarian

The second phenomena, which is pure speculation on my part relates to the situation manitoba alluded to where in a full group, one member will receive all the drops when a number of mobs are simultaneously killed (be it with AoE or luck). It is possible that the loot selection process only polls every half second or so to account for differences in lag on the client side.

Far more plausible and an insightful explanation. Don't get me wrong, manitoba's made some interesting observations so the guy's clued in, but his explanations for those results are a little left-field. The loot system is probably the most critical for PvE farmers and i just can't believe that it's been bugged and not fixed for nearly three years. You can see how easily they can switch event items on and off - Bunnies and Eggs stopped dropping exactly when Anet said they would last weekend leading me to believe it's a highly-tuned and sophisticated system capable of being manipulated on-the-fly, not some Frankenstein monster beyond their control.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talarian

Now, I reckon there could be two phenomena at work here. The first is that the system is hard coded to provide fewer drops from AoE damage. This is the most logical situation, because otherwise we would be seeing a lot of very rich Elementalists who can earn the same as anyone else in a quarter of the time.

As an interesting aside - i saw Mr Kotte in Rata Sum farming the Raptor Nestlings for event items with his Ele. He reckons he made about 800K over the weekend and didn't farm it day and night. I put about 30 hours into the farm with a VwK W/Rt in NM and made about 500K from regular drops and event items (not counting the mods, dyes and a couple of r9 Saurian Sycthes I kept). I was careful as much as possible to make the kill with VwK and not Ancestor's Rage to test the AoE theory.

I'd be interested to see if Mr Kotte was using an AoE Fire build or an Earth Sliver tank, because 300K is a big difference when i'm guessing he farmed less than i did. I understand event items aren't lootscaled, but it would help to prove / disprove the argument that AoE builds can get richer quicker by focusing on lootscale exempt items (especially during event weekends) because they can do more runs in the same time. This would in turn help to explain the AoE vs Single foe phenomena during regular play to throttle back the rate at which an AoE build can accumulate wealth to fall in line with slower builds. Or it might prove nothing more than he's a better trader than I

If Skinny's and MLiC's results are valid, we can conclude two things -

1. If you want more merch food, go with a single foe build. It takes more time to complete a run, but you get more cash for it.
2. If you don't care about merch food and are after lootscale exempt drops, go with an AoE build for more runs at leet loot over time.

The question I think we're trying to answer is which is the better way to go?
Is one clearly better than the other or are they tweaked by the loot system to come out roughly even?

MisterB · Mar 26, 2008, 09:50 PM // 21:50

I think some current players are missing past perspective, whether they simply forgot what happened before lootscaling, or started playing after. This AoE effect on limiting drops was not discussed and did not exist before then. This leads me to the belief that it is working as intended as another means to limit the number of drops. Of course, I really don't have an explanation why it was not announced at the same time, nor can I say why questions about it go unanswered. When asked, Gaile went back to describing lootscaling. I'm not sure she understood the distinction. She may have just been confused.

Antithesis · Mar 26, 2008, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by MisterB

This leads me to the belief that it is working as intended as another means to limit the number of drops.

I think most of us are in agreement about that point. As i recall it lootscaling was implemented to cut the profit bots were making by farming and selling merch food. Most if not all bots were using SoJ, so an AoE nerf makes perfect sense (as did the added then removed NM AI scatter, thank god HM was added) and ties in with this argument.

I may be derailing the thread (and i apologise if that's the case), but does AoE effect non-lootscaled drops? If it doesn't, we can better farm desirable items by using an AoE build (except greens, Sliver rocks against bosses). Maybe that's a given and doesn't need to be proven, but if it's in question Skinny's tests should help if we pit a Fire Nuker vs a SV.

Talarian · Mar 26, 2008, 11:14 PM // 23:14

From my experience, AoE does not affect non-loot scaled items. The majority of my tomes, dyes, and greens have all come from AoE farms. I am of the opinion that the system was made like this so that high-risk/high-reward farms like UW are unaffected, as AoE builds there are generally riskier than VwK builds. Other oft-farmed areas such as raptors, vaettirs, hulkings, etc. where there is no discernible difference in the difficulty of builds will be made less profitable according to their speed. I could be wrong, but again it is the most logical explanation.

My Lipgloss is Cool · Mar 27, 2008, 12:11 AM // 00:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

does AoE effect non-lootscaled drops?

I don't believe so. During special drop weekends, I just go and do a Luxon Assassin run, mass agro and kill them all at once (see SSs at the end of Pg.1). Although I get about 6 drops on a normal run, on Special Drop Weekends I get 6 drops + 2-8 event drops.

MLiC

Antithesis · Mar 27, 2008, 01:40 AM // 01:40

Yeah i don't think it does either. Skinny's been following this thread and will hopefully test a Nuker vs SV. Results should be interesting.