Curse

ender6 · Apr 02, 2008, 06:15 PM // 18:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wild Karrde

Alot of people are posting incorrect information about RoF.....

Many are saying if at 8 prot RoF someone gets hit with a 250 dmg skill with said RoF on them then RoF negates 50 dmg then heals for 50 health. WHICH IS WRONG
Someone under RoF that gets hit by an attack/spell that is supposed to deal 250 dmg willl take NO damage from said attack/spell and then be healed for 50 @ 8 prot
eg: I is monk and I is healing warrior, We are getting mobbed by beasties. Warrior has 5 pts of health left. I throw RoF on him ( my prot prayers are at 8 for sake of argument) Monster hits him with a 250 dmg attack, BUT because warrior has RoF on him it NEGATES(attack does NO dmg) damage from monster attack and heals him for 50 health INSTEAD. Net gain of 50 health

eg2: I is monking again for warrior. Warrior has 5 pts of health left I put RoF on him(at 8 prot prayers) monster wands him for 25 dmg, BUT since warrior has RoF on the damage is NEGATED (attack does NO dmg to him) and is instead healed for 25 health because monsters attack would only do that much, it was below the maximum that RoF heals for so it only heals for that much.

Some others got it right like ender6 but alot of people in the beginning were misreading/misunderstanding RoF

Don't drag me into this, I never said anything remotely close to what you are proposing.

Add on:

I did however say, in answering I D E L E T E I 's question regarding why use RoF when you can simply use SB then the follow up heal, state that RoF negates damage (part of the damage) and then heals, while SB doesn't negate the damage it only heals. Therefore offering him an explanation why RoF is the "Panic Button" spell of choice. Please don't misconstrue the "negate damage" part. I took it as a given that everyone know's that RoF doesn't negate all of the damage.

Dr Strangelove · Apr 02, 2008, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

I hear this an awful lot, and it seems that most folks around here accept it as fact, but I'd like to question it a bit.

First, RoF is not good as a push-red-bars-up skill. Compared to the best straight heals -- WoH, ELight+HBoon, DKiss(+HBoon) -- RoF is never going to heal as much even if you get a maxed trigger. Moreover, there's no guarantee that you're going to get a maxed trigger; it's just as likely to stop a low-damage wand shot.

So, we can say: If you expect the target to live long enough that you can land a straight heal, then you'd be better off using a straight heal instead of RoF.

It follows, then, that the situations where RoF might possibly be good are situations where you expect the target to die before you could land a straight heal. That's 0.5sec for HBoon'ed stuff or 0.75sec for WoH. So you're expecting the target to die before 0.5 or 0.75 sec.

If you're using RoF then spirit bond, you've essentially wasted 5 energy. If that 5 energy gave you the time to decide if spirit bond was necessary, it was worth it. If you had spirit bond queued up as soon as you cast RoF, it was wasted.

Now, here comes the part that makes me question RoF's effectiveness as a time-buyer. RoF has an aftercast. So you've got a target who's getting walloped so hard that they're going to die in less than 0.5 or 0.75 sec, but with a little bit more life they're somehow going to last 1.5 or 1.75 sec? That seems to me an unlikely proposition. If the damage rate is high enough that you don't have time for the 0.5 or 0.75sec spell, then it should also be high enough to more than negate RoF's weak heal during the extra second RoF adds.

It seems to me that, if the RoF'ed target survives long enough for you to cast the straight heal, it means that either (a) the damage let up during the extra second that RoF added, or (b) you were wrong when you predicted that the target would not survive long enough for the straight heal, and should have just cast the straight heal in the first place. In neither case did RoF buy you the time to land the straight heal. At best you could say that, in the first case, it bought time for the incoming damage to let let up.

(Now, before I get flamed all to heck, I am not saying that your precious RoF is a terrible skill or anything like that; I am merely saying that the "RoF is a great skill because it buys you time to cast a big heal" explanation for why it is such a great skill doesn't seem to hold much water under closer examination.)

You're not using RoF to buy time for a big heal, you're using it to buy time for a prot, usually guardian. This includes both the time spent deciding which prot to use, and actually casting the spell. Here's a few situations:

Incoming minor spike: RoF works as an excellent preprot, as you'll generally catch the first big hit, then can WoH later if you need to. If the spike has already partially hit, you're correct that WoH is better.

Incoming coordinated caster spike: Spirit bond, pray like crazy you used it on the right target.

Physical spike, forgot to preprot: Use RoF, then guardian. Guardian is too slow and not a hard enough prot to keep someone alive by itself. Using guardian first would mean waiting 1 seconds before damage it mitigated, and 2.5 before the WoH hits. It's more advantageous to get the red bar going up in 1/4 second then mitigate at 2. Against some physical spikes, spirit bond is a better option. That's a decision you have to make on the fly.

Mesmer/ranger/knocklock/daze: WoH isn't going to get off, no matter how hard you try. RoF becomes your only way of healing. Some monks are choosing to take patient spirit instead of RoF for that purpose. It's a better option for this purpose, but you lose the twitch heal ability.

As for wanding triggering it, it just doesn't happen unless you're using RoF as your only heal (which is why patient spirit is better for this). When you throw it up against a spike, it's going to trigger full or close to full 99% of the time.

dicecube · Apr 02, 2008, 06:52 PM // 18:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wild Karrde

Alot of people are posting incorrect information about RoF.....

Many are saying if at 8 prot RoF someone gets hit with a 250 dmg skill with said RoF on them then RoF negates 50 dmg then heals for 50 health. WHICH IS WRONG

Someone under RoF that gets hit by an attack/spell that is supposed to deal 250 dmg willl take NO damage from said attack/spell and then be healed for 50 @ 8 prot
eg: I is monk and I is healing warrior, We are getting mobbed by beasties. Warrior has 5 pts of health left. I throw RoF on him ( my prot prayers are at 8 for sake of argument) Monster hits him with a 250 dmg attack, BUT because warrior has RoF on him it NEGATES(attack does NO dmg) damage from monster attack and heals him for 50 health INSTEAD. Net gain of 50 health

eg2: I is monking again for warrior. Warrior has 5 pts of health left I put RoF on him(at 8 prot prayers) monster wands him for 25 dmg, BUT since warrior has RoF on the damage is NEGATED (attack does NO dmg to him) and is instead healed for 25 health because monsters attack would only do that much, it was below the maximum that RoF heals for so it only heals for that much.

Some others got it right like ender6 but alot of people in the beginning were misreading/misunderstanding RoF

if that's the case, then nerf RoF!!11!

Coloneh · Apr 02, 2008, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by dicecube

if that's the case, then nerf RoF!!11!

thats not how RoF works, thats how RoD works

Chthon · Apr 02, 2008, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

You're not using RoF to buy time for a big heal, you're using it to buy time for a prot, usually guardian. This includes both the time spent deciding which prot to use, and actually casting the spell.

This I can maybe believe.

Quote:

Incoming minor spike: RoF works as an excellent preprot, as you'll generally catch the first big hit, then can WoH later if you need to. If the spike has already partially hit, you're correct that WoH is better.

1. As you describe it, I am both (a) on the ball enough to pre-prot here, and (b) willing to spend 10e overall. Why not just pre-prot with PS and save myself the cast time?

2. Unless I expect the spike to be fatal without prot, why not just let it hit and then clean it up with WoH?

Quote:

Mesmer/ranger/knocklock/daze: WoH isn't going to get off, no matter how hard you try. RoF becomes your only way of healing. Some monks are choosing to take patient spirit instead of RoF for that purpose. It's a better option for this purpose, but you lose the twitch heal ability.

This is absolutely true (at least for PvP), and it's probably the best thing RoF has going for it IMO. But it's not support for the "RoF is a great skill because it buys you time to cast a big heal" explanation of why RoF is supposedly the greatest thing ever.

Quote:

As for wanding triggering it, it just doesn't happen unless you're using RoF as your only heal (which is why patient spirit is better for this). When you throw it up against a spike, it's going to trigger full or close to full 99% of the time.

Depends what you're fighting. PvE monsters or AB scrubs? You'd better believe it's going to trigger off a wand hit at least half the time. High-end PvP spike? Maybe you can count on a spike consisting of big hits. (Ironically, wouldn't that be a place where high-end PvP tactics could be improved by playing more like low-end players/monsters? Have you backline/midline make sure to wand on spikes to defeat RoF?)

Stormlord Alex · Apr 02, 2008, 09:18 PM // 21:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

thats not how RoF works, thats how RoD works

How RoD used to work. Got fixed at some point

Pyro maniac · Apr 02, 2008, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

You're not using RoF to buy time for a big heal, you're using it to buy time for a prot, usually guardian. This includes both the time spent deciding which prot to use, and actually casting the spell. Here's a few situations:

guardian is a pre-prot only. 1 sec cast at the end of the spike doesn't do much. That being said it's the only prot with a 1 sec cast (well SoA as well, but that skill doesn't do much at well at the end). You won't need the RoF to buy time for your spirit bond. Actually use spirit bond and then maybe RoF or just wait until your party member gets infused.

Melody Cross · Apr 02, 2008, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by I D E L E T E D I

Hmmm i still have a question concerning the proper use of RoF. The way i see it, is that there are 2 type of Spikes. Pressure Spikes coming from a balanced build and "proper" spikes such as R-Spike.

Usually in a pressure spike you have enough time to WoH up the damage, and i say usually because sometimes the opposition will utilize its full team and clean spike your team mate down. In a clean spike scenario if i was the RC i would SB the target and then RC the DW off. If i was the WoH i would infuse him. In Pressure spikes i would just WoH up the damage as the healer and RC the DW away.

I still think RoF is an amazing skill i just dont really see a good scenario where its really essential to have it. If a target is getting spikes would your RoF your target instead of SBing or Infusing it? Hope someone can answer this question for me. Thanks

Looking for the optimal situation to use any skill will typically get a lot of team members killed. As the saying goes, don't obsess about the forest so much that you neglect to look at the trees

Even if you bonehead pellmell totally waste the spell on someone, its only 5 energy and its ready to go again in 2.25 seconds...and your target is still protected from a hit for 8-9 seconds give or take. Thats where RoF shines, TBH. It not perfect, but it doesn't force you to be either.

To quote Miss Frizzle: "Take chances! Get messy! Make mistakes!"

GGs

Dr Strangelove · Apr 03, 2008, 02:48 AM // 02:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

1. As you describe it, I am both (a) on the ball enough to pre-prot here, and (b) willing to spend 10e overall. Why not just pre-prot with PS and save myself the cast time?

2. Unless I expect the spike to be fatal without prot, why not just let it hit and then clean it up with WoH?

I use it for big hits that probably won't be fatal, but are still going to hurt. SB is expensive, so I want to avoid using it if I don't have to.

As for WoH vs. RoF, there's a couple problems with completely relying on WoH afterwards.

First, it's dangerous to say "I'm only going to heal stuff under 50% health". You can do it, but I guarantee something is going to bite you in the ass later on, especially if someone has DP. For targets over 50% health, RoF is the most efficient spell on your bar.

Second, you don't know if you'll be able to push that WoH out in the first place. It's a huge gamble to see a spike coming and choose not to do anything about it. Remember, you really don't know exactly what's going to happen, you may have seen a hex giving away a spike, or you may have seen a caster doing a 2s animation. You don't know what might happen after, or if it's safe to leave that person under 50% for a bit while being targeted. It's always best to plan for the worst case scenario when monking in PvP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Depends what you're fighting. PvE monsters or AB scrubs? You'd better believe it's going to trigger off a wand hit at least half the time. High-end PvP spike? Maybe you can count on a spike consisting of big hits. (Ironically, wouldn't that be a place where high-end PvP tactics could be improved by playing more like low-end players/monsters? Have you backline/midline make sure to wand on spikes to defeat RoF?)

RoF is useless in PvE, I can't think of any reason to bring it, other than to practice for PvP. I know what every monster is going to do, and nothing is going to try to spike anything. Against ele bosses and such, the packets are so huge that it's PS or nothing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyro Maniac

guardian is a pre-prot only. 1 sec cast at the end of the spike doesn't do much. That being said it's the only prot with a 1 sec cast (well SoA as well, but that skill doesn't do much at well at the end). You won't need the RoF to buy time for your spirit bond. Actually use spirit bond and then maybe RoF or just wait until your party member gets infused.

If you're talking about a coordinated spike where their melee converge on a person, or a ranger spike, then yes, if you missed the preprot you have no choice but to use SB, SoD or Shielding Hands (depending on which flavor of ohshitspike skill you like). However, when you see a melee running at one of your team and you don't have time to guardian, RoF will buy you that time. Guardian is not preprot only in this case, because if you don't push out the guardian, that melee is going to eventually beat your buddy into a pulp. You're never going to keep up with the pressure by just using WoH when you have problems. You have to force him to change targets (or, if he's bad, make him mostly useless ).

EDIT: I'm referring to Spirit Bond in the spots where you referred to prot spirit because prot spirit is awful in most PvP. Most players are running 550-600 health. Prot spirit is only better for damage packets below 60 or above 150 or so. For the low hits, you're only taking a couple points of damage off, not enough to matter. Hits over 150 just don't happen unless someone catches a lightning orb while using healsig. The only bonus it has is the duration, which is really only useful if you want prot spirit on someone all the time, like one of those frenzied defense monks.