Curse

Sword · Mar 29, 2008, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marverick

But with hex breaker, the other guy can just use a harmless hex on you to get rid of it.

Although with Veil it can be shattered.

Still, Veil works on allies.

and hex breaker requires yo9ur secondary to be mesmer

Melody Cross · Mar 30, 2008, 09:43 AM // 09:43

veil use is not easy to explain.

i guess we can start with the basics. there are three ways to use it.

1 the talkora method. Cast it when a bad hex is called and rip it off quickly. maybe you get the hex; maybe you get a cover. veil is a hex removal, and in that regard veil works due to inexpensive cost and quick recycle. since most hybrids have a prot staff now, cast with that on and you may get a nod from the global recycle bonus.

2 the anti-hex bonder. maintaining this on yourself or your duo (or a member of your frontline in hexsnare/hex-miss situations; whoever is needing protection most) can help you strip diversion and other nasty skills once they're applied. serves a two fold purpose; gives your interrupters time to catch this dirty little hex before its applied (which lets you save the veil strip for something else) or plenty of time for them to sing out that a divert is incoming, so you know to cancel the enchant as soon as you see the divert applied. this comes at a steep cost however: a pip of energy regen.

that being said...there were plenty of times when i used to gvg when i found myself maintaining two veils for half a match and talkora casting to keep a third target clear. the risk is obvious...the bonus is questionable but potentially enough to keep an entire split clean.

3 the psychic monk. time the hexers recycle rate and apply veil to their target of choice before they cast. This gives you the benefit of its maintained cost without significant loss to your energy. the only way to gain this knowledge is experience and judicious use of wiki and the "k" panel. read the skill descriptions, memorize the cast/recycle of the bad hexes and KNOW them before you go in game, not after your duo has been bitching about diversion for half the match. the most powerful hexes, players will want to use regularly, right? so they won't sit idle and ready to cast for long. they'll get cast soon after they recycle. if they're being saved for a spike...well, there's a timing to spike too in most cases but your primary concern is catching that first. strip the veil after you get your spike catch off.

As you become experienced, there will be times when you want to use any of these three dependent on the situation. When you first clash with a team, you probably don't want pre-veils up because you'll be at a disadvantage toward energy if the hexer is...not very good. Also, since you don't know the exact makeup of the build many times, its a 1 in 8 chance that you'll veil the right target. talkora method may be fine in those situations to start.

Once you know the hex threat and who needs priority protection, you may want to go the "psychic" route on their target to help the shut down and negate what they are doing. it can be a costly mistake if you cast on the wrong target because now your veil is wasted on another teammate. lets say--for the sake of argument--that you pick the right person.

If the shutdown manages to keep the nastiest hex off your target, you may choose to keep the veil up, bonding them until another bad hex is called...or strip it for the sake of your energy.

Dependant on the situation you're facing, its a judgment call when and where veil needs to go and if it should stay there a while. my most recent gvg match, i was surprised to hear my duo remark that i was a "crazy bugger" (cleaned up a little bit) to be keeping veil on him. the one thing i didn't hear him say, however, was that diversion was pwning him after i started maintaining it. its easy to see the drawback of maintaining veil...apparently, it is hard for some players to see just how effective it can be when maintained too.

GGs

ender6 · Mar 30, 2008, 04:55 PM // 16:55

I agree with all of your points, but I do think it's worth mentioning that often opponents will use skills such as Rend Enchantments, Rip Enchantment, Drain Enchantment, etc. before applying a key hex. It is often easy to spot a preveiler (is there a pun in that?) and utilize this technique. The removal of hexes has always been a tedious task and with spotless mind bugged--well that has become a popular option for hex removal.

Dr Strangelove · Mar 30, 2008, 08:03 PM // 20:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyro maniac

you get healed first

RoF's healing power isn't that great. Compare Word of Healing to RoF

(yes I know WoH is an elite, however you'll be most likely running a 14 spec WoH and a 11 spec RoF)

Word of Healing heals for more, it's heal is unconditional (20 dmg on a RoF will just heal for 40) and doesn't need damage to trigger (watching someone die with 8 degen and RoF on him is frustrating).
The only plus of RoF is his 1/4 sec cast: That will save lives. Putting a RoF on someone who is about to die, just to buy that extra second to cast WoH is just great. Also it will save you when you're getting pound while begin constantly knocked down or dazed. 3/4 cast will be more likely to fail then a 1/4 sec cast.

The point of RoF isn't to push red bars up, it's an "Oh shit, I forgot to preprot" button. It buys you the time to throw something out that will save their life.

Grammar · Mar 31, 2008, 01:08 AM // 01:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by ender6

The removal of hexes has always been a tedious task and with spotless mind bugged

Really? What's wrong with Spotless Mind?
I have extremely little experience with that skill, which is why I ask.

Melody Cross · Mar 31, 2008, 04:45 AM // 04:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grammar

Really? What's wrong with Spotless Mind?
I have extremely little experience with that skill, which is why I ask.

nothing wrong with it per se. check the anomaly section on the wiki

http://www.wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Spotless_Mind

I don't use it though. Non-self targeting skills are often a no no. The more you have on your bar, the more your are reliant on you duo to pull your biscuits out of the fire...and reliant on the opposite side not noticing that your bar can't keep you alive if your duo drops.

GGs

Pyro maniac · Mar 31, 2008, 10:41 AM // 10:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

The point of RoF isn't to push red bars up, it's an "Oh shit, I forgot to preprot" button. It buys you the time to throw something out that will save their life.

yes, I just explained that poorly

ender6 · Mar 31, 2008, 01:21 PM // 13:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melody Cross

nothing wrong with it per se. check the anomaly section on the wiki

http://www.wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Spotless_Mind

I don't use it though. Non-self targeting skills are often a no no. The more you have on your bar, the more your are reliant on you duo to pull your biscuits out of the fire...and reliant on the opposite side not noticing that your bar can't keep you alive if your duo drops.

GGs

I perosonally wouldn't use it unless I was running an HC spam monk, but I refuse to run such a monk. I can't wait for the next update and the nerf bat to hit it. Also I hope WoD is addressed.

Chthon · Mar 31, 2008, 05:08 PM // 17:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

The point of RoF isn't to push red bars up, it's an "Oh shit, I forgot to preprot" button. It buys you the time to throw something out that will save their life.

I hear this an awful lot, and it seems that most folks around here accept it as fact, but I'd like to question it a bit.

First, RoF is not good as a push-red-bars-up skill. Compared to the best straight heals -- WoH, ELight+HBoon, DKiss(+HBoon) -- RoF is never going to heal as much even if you get a maxed trigger. Moreover, there's no guarantee that you're going to get a maxed trigger; it's just as likely to stop a low-damage wand shot.

So, we can say: If you expect the target to live long enough that you can land a straight heal, then you'd be better off using a straight heal instead of RoF.

It follows, then, that the situations where RoF might possibly be good are situations where you expect the target to die before you could land a straight heal. That's 0.5sec for HBoon'ed stuff or 0.75sec for WoH. So you're expecting the target to die before 0.5 or 0.75 sec.

Now, here comes the part that makes me question RoF's effectiveness as a time-buyer. RoF has an aftercast. So you've got a target who's getting walloped so hard that they're going to die in less than 0.5 or 0.75 sec, but with a little bit more life they're somehow going to last 1.5 or 1.75 sec? That seems to me an unlikely proposition. If the damage rate is high enough that you don't have time for the 0.5 or 0.75sec spell, then it should also be high enough to more than negate RoF's weak heal during the extra second RoF adds.

It seems to me that, if the RoF'ed target survives long enough for you to cast the straight heal, it means that either (a) the damage let up during the extra second that RoF added, or (b) you were wrong when you predicted that the target would not survive long enough for the straight heal, and should have just cast the straight heal in the first place. In neither case did RoF buy you the time to land the straight heal. At best you could say that, in the first case, it bought time for the incoming damage to let let up.

(Now, before I get flamed all to heck, I am not saying that your precious RoF is a terrible skill or anything like that; I am merely saying that the "RoF is a great skill because it buys you time to cast a big heal" explanation for why it is such a great skill doesn't seem to hold much water under closer examination.)

Melody Cross · Mar 31, 2008, 10:54 PM // 22:54

RoF use...

A lot of people DO call it the "Oh Shit!" prot of GW. Thats because--when you reflex cast it on someone who suddenly takes a lot of damage--it functions so. its a quick save against quick damage surges. (An Aside: if damage IS surging, then RoF's heal is no longer all that small.) But even that is not really clear.

Alright, I loathe to do this, but lets look at it from a red bar perspective. And we're going to do that in a very wierd way.

Imagine for a moment that you're playing one of those side scrolling fight games from the late 90s. you have the two little anime characters on either side and they're bouncing up and down with their hands up ready to fight. One's a little Mhenlo, the other is a little uh...Cynn. See it now? Hope so.

But we're going to do something different fromt he classic fight game. Instead of two bars, one per opponent, you have just one and its a tug-o-war. Imagine now that the monk is using his first three--the top three you'll use per match-skills just as one would in a side scroll game like that. You have the straight quick jab, the slow roundhouse kick, and the medium speed uppercut. quick jab is very fast but doesn't do much, slow roundhouse is slow to get off but does a lot. and the uppercut is somewhere in between.

if your opponent in our fictional sidescroller walks up and attacks, our tug-o-war bar goes down, toward gray, toward death and his win. we use our punches to keep the bar from filling our color (in this case, gray and death to the player; we're red and keep them alive). The more of either color, the better a side is doing. Lots of red; we're winning. Lots of gray...I hope you get the idea.

By now, in our fictional tug-o-war, you may have a good idea what the other two skills are. WoH and, lets say, Dismiss. WoH is a little slow but, conditionally, very powerful. Dismiss is also slow but it does more than just heal AND if the conditions are right, it "hits" for a respectable amount.

when people say to just go ahead and use your WoH, they're adopting a "roundhouse kick to all situations" strategy (well, not really, but in our game they are). That can work. If you're always hitting for the most you can hit for, then that red bar is going get gray get gray then POW! Big red surge to the bar.

But now we add something new to the mix. remember, we're not playing a single game of Tug-o-war here. We're playing 4 such games minimum, max of 8 at a given time.

if your response to all 8 games is 'ROUNDHOUSE!' then when you actually need that hard red bar hit, you'll be waiting for it to recycle from another game you were playing. You save that roundhouse to fight back hard punch against hard punch, and you have a chance that it won't be recycling when one of these tug-o-wars starts to dip in gray's favor.

But what do you do in the meantime? Quick jabs pop pop pop. Prot spirit on the mesmer because the frontline look to be balling...but the ele and your duo took a dip too and they're close to the mes--jab uppercut. WHOA! Mesmer got hit hard but the PS/SBond combo negated a kill--ROUNDHOUSE!

All game long. I know that sounds crazy but when I started GW, thats how I saw red bars (and yes, when I started GW, I tended to WATCH said red bars more than the field. I think most if not all of us did). Thats what RoF did for me. It was my quick jab; something I could use quick quick quick on any of those 8 tug-o-wars and still have my uppercut and roundhouse in reserve.

Now? It functions much the same way when I hybrid. RoF is my first reaction to a non-threat dip of the red bar when I carry it. its the first punch I throw unless I see a ball forming, a spike incoming. Its that "they might be doing something over here on this bar, on this player, so lets toss something over there to let them know I'm watching...let them know there'll be no funny business getting by me." Even then, though, I'm not just swinging skills all over the place like mad. If I'm not sure (against a good team, you're rarely sure the incoming damage is a feint or the real thing) then RoF is my "he might need a heal in the next 8 seconds" skill.

I hope this helps someone understand why people who RoF spam still consider it great.

GGs

JoeKnowMo · Mar 31, 2008, 11:30 PM // 23:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

It seems to me that, if the RoF'ed target survives long enough for you to cast the straight heal, it means that either (a) the damage let up during the extra second that RoF added, or (b) you were wrong when you predicted that the target would not survive long enough for the straight heal, and should have just cast the straight heal in the first place. In neither case did RoF buy you the time to land the straight heal. At best you could say that, in the first case, it bought time for the incoming damage to let let up.

The scenario where RoF saves a life depends on multiple things:
- The number of attackers
- The damage of their attacks
- The movement and positioning of your ally

If your ally is one of those who stands around and absorbs damage, RoF won't save him.

If your ally sees his life dip suddenly and begins to kite. The RoF keeps him from dying and his kiting results in (a) the damage letting up, which allows for a follow-up heal.

I've saved many an ally with RoF + a follow-up and had several others die when I've tried to go for WoH first.

Snow Bunny · Apr 01, 2008, 12:11 AM // 00:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

It seems to me that, if the RoF'ed target survives long enough for you to cast the straight heal, it means that either (a) the damage let up during the extra second that RoF added, or (b) you were wrong when you predicted that the target would not survive long enough for the straight heal, and should have just cast the straight heal in the first place. In neither case did RoF buy you the time to land the straight heal. At best you could say that, in the first case, it bought time for the incoming damage to let let up.

No. A RoF'd target is a "Shit, he's about to get Executioner's Striked, better RoF him"

And RoF has bought me time for WoH more times than I can recall.

I D E L E T E D I · Apr 02, 2008, 02:25 PM // 14:25

Hmmm i still have a question concerning the proper use of RoF. The way i see it, is that there are 2 type of Spikes. Pressure Spikes coming from a balanced build and "proper" spikes such as R-Spike.

Usually in a pressure spike you have enough time to WoH up the damage, and i say usually because sometimes the opposition will utilize its full team and clean spike your team mate down. In a clean spike scenario if i was the RC i would SB the target and then RC the DW off. If i was the WoH i would infuse him. In Pressure spikes i would just WoH up the damage as the healer and RC the DW away.

I still think RoF is an amazing skill i just dont really see a good scenario where its really essential to have it. If a target is getting spikes would your RoF your target instead of SBing or Infusing it? Hope someone can answer this question for me. Thanks

ender6 · Apr 02, 2008, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by I D E L E T E D I

Hmmm i still have a question concerning the proper use of RoF. The way i see it, is that there are 2 type of Spikes. Pressure Spikes coming from a balanced build and "proper" spikes such as R-Spike.

Usually in a pressure spike you have enough time to WoH up the damage, and i say usually because sometimes the opposition will utilize its full team and clean spike your team mate down. In a clean spike scenario if i was the RC i would SB the target and then RC the DW off. If i was the WoH i would infuse him. In Pressure spikes i would just WoH up the damage as the healer and RC the DW away.

I still think RoF is an amazing skill i just dont really see a good scenario where its really essential to have it. If a target is getting spikes would your RoF your target instead of SBing or Infusing it? Hope someone can answer this question for me. Thanks

Keep in mind that with [skill]spirit bond[/skill] you still take damage, and then you recieve the heal. RoF negates the damage for x amount and then heals for x amount. The point being is that RoF is the initial life saver until you can stablize the situation. Of course if you are perfect with your pre-prots, RoF would become unnecessary, but who is perfect besides Tommy?

As said in many threads, RoF, though it can be used in many different ways, its optimal use is as a "panic-button" life saver.

MasterSasori · Apr 02, 2008, 04:16 PM // 16:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melody Cross

RoF use...

A lot of people DO call it the "Oh Shit!" prot of GW. Thats because--when you reflex cast it on someone who suddenly takes a lot of damage--it functions so. its a quick save against quick damage surges.

/signed a million times.

Pyro maniac · Apr 02, 2008, 05:26 PM // 17:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by I D E L E T E D I

Hmmm i still have a question concerning the proper use of RoF. The way i see it, is that there are 2 type of Spikes. Pressure Spikes coming from a balanced build and "proper" spikes such as R-Spike.

Usually in a pressure spike you have enough time to WoH up the damage, and i say usually because sometimes the opposition will utilize its full team and clean spike your team mate down. In a clean spike scenario if i was the RC i would SB the target and then RC the DW off. If i was the WoH i would infuse him. In Pressure spikes i would just WoH up the damage as the healer and RC the DW away.

I still think RoF is an amazing skill i just dont really see a good scenario where its really essential to have it. If a target is getting spikes would your RoF your target instead of SBing or Infusing it? Hope someone can answer this question for me. Thanks

pressure spike (is this a good term?) aren't slower then clean spikes. You still need your RoF on both spikes.

Wild Karrde · Apr 02, 2008, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Alot of people are posting incorrect information about RoF.....

Many are saying if at 8 prot RoF someone gets hit with a 250 dmg skill with said RoF on them then RoF negates 50 dmg then heals for 50 health. WHICH IS WRONG

Someone under RoF that gets hit by an attack/spell that is supposed to deal 250 dmg willl take NO damage from said attack/spell and then be healed for 50 @ 8 prot
eg: I is monk and I is healing warrior, We are getting mobbed by beasties. Warrior has 5 pts of health left. I throw RoF on him ( my prot prayers are at 8 for sake of argument) Monster hits him with a 250 dmg attack, BUT because warrior has RoF on him it NEGATES(attack does NO dmg) damage from monster attack and heals him for 50 health INSTEAD. Net gain of 50 health

eg2: I is monking again for warrior. Warrior has 5 pts of health left I put RoF on him(at 8 prot prayers) monster wands him for 25 dmg, BUT since warrior has RoF on the damage is NEGATED (attack does NO dmg to him) and is instead healed for 25 health because monsters attack would only do that much, it was below the maximum that RoF heals for so it only heals for that much.

Some others got it right like ender6 but alot of people in the beginning were misreading/misunderstanding RoF

Pyro maniac · Apr 02, 2008, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wild Karrde

Alot of people are posting incorrect information about RoF.....

Many are saying if at 8 prot RoF someone gets hit with a 250 dmg skill with said RoF on them then RoF negates 50 dmg then heals for 50 health. WHICH IS WRONG

Someone under RoF that gets hit by an attack/spell that is supposed to deal 250 dmg willl take NO damage from said attack/spell and then be healed for 50 @ 8 prot
eg: I is monk and I is healing warrior, We are getting mobbed by beasties. Warrior has 5 pts of health left. I throw RoF on him ( my prot prayers are at 8 for sake of argument) Monster hits him with a 250 dmg attack, BUT because warrior has RoF on him it NEGATES(attack does NO dmg) damage from monster attack and heals him for 50 health INSTEAD. Net gain of 50 health

eg2: I is monking again for warrior. Warrior has 5 pts of health left I put RoF on him(at 8 prot prayers) monster wands him for 25 dmg, BUT since warrior has RoF on the damage is NEGATED (attack does NO dmg to him) and is instead healed for 25 health because monsters attack would only do that much, it was below the maximum that RoF heals for so it only heals for that much.

Some others got it right like ender6 but alot of people in the beginning were misreading/misunderstanding RoF

no you're wrong. stop posting crap

Tyla · Apr 02, 2008, 05:38 PM // 17:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wild Karrde

Alot of people are posting incorrect information about RoF.....

Many are saying if at 8 prot RoF someone gets hit with a 250 dmg skill with said RoF on them then RoF negates 50 dmg then heals for 50 health. WHICH IS WRONG

Someone under RoF that gets hit by an attack/spell that is supposed to deal 250 dmg willl take NO damage from said attack/spell and then be healed for 50 @ 8 prot
eg: I is monk and I is healing warrior, We are getting mobbed by beasties. Warrior has 5 pts of health left. I throw RoF on him ( my prot prayers are at 8 for sake of argument) Monster hits him with a 250 dmg attack, BUT because warrior has RoF on him it NEGATES(attack does NO dmg) damage from monster attack and heals him for 50 health INSTEAD. Net gain of 50 health

eg2: I is monking again for warrior. Warrior has 5 pts of health left I put RoF on him(at 8 prot prayers) monster wands him for 25 dmg, BUT since warrior has RoF on the damage is NEGATED (attack does NO dmg to him) and is instead healed for 25 health because monsters attack would only do that much, it was below the maximum that RoF heals for so it only heals for that much.

Some others got it right like ender6 but alot of people in the beginning were misreading/misunderstanding RoF

Screenshot or it didn't happen.
Stop failing.

MasterSasori · Apr 02, 2008, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wild Karrde

Alot of people are posting incorrect information about RoF.....

Many are saying if at 8 prot RoF someone gets hit with a 250 dmg skill with said RoF on them then RoF negates 50 dmg then heals for 50 health. WHICH IS WRONG

Someone under RoF that gets hit by an attack/spell that is supposed to deal 250 dmg willl take NO damage from said attack/spell and then be healed for 50 @ 8 prot
eg: I is monk and I is healing warrior, We are getting mobbed by beasties. Warrior has 5 pts of health left. I throw RoF on him ( my prot prayers are at 8 for sake of argument) Monster hits him with a 250 dmg attack, BUT because warrior has RoF on him it NEGATES(attack does NO dmg) damage from monster attack and heals him for 50 health INSTEAD. Net gain of 50 health

eg2: I is monking again for warrior. Warrior has 5 pts of health left I put RoF on him(at 8 prot prayers) monster wands him for 25 dmg, BUT since warrior has RoF on the damage is NEGATED (attack does NO dmg to him) and is instead healed for 25 health because monsters attack would only do that much, it was below the maximum that RoF heals for so it only heals for that much.

Some others got it right like ender6 but alot of people in the beginning were misreading/misunderstanding RoF

Then try this - put RoF on yourself and walk up to a terrorweb dryder as a monk.