Curse

carribus · May 07, 2007, 09:36 AM // 09:36

This guide is aimed at players who understand how to play the traditional 55/ss duo team build in UW. If you haven't done this, then feel free to read ahead, but I would strongly suggest finding a guide on traditional 55/ss duo'ing of Underworld before attempting hard mode

Firstly, here are the skills (you'll notice that nothing has changed from the traditional method):

Monk
[card]Protective Spirit[/card][card]Healing Breeze[/card][card]Spell Breaker[/card][card]Bonetti's Defense[/card][card]Blessed Signet[/card][card]Blessed Aura[/card][card]Balthazar's Spirit[/card][card]Mending[/card]
Template Code : OwEV0SX8SIXnoegMi8NlAUeiEA

Necro
[card]Arcane Echo[/card][card]Spiteful Spirit[/card][card]Ancestor's Visage[/card][card]Sympathetic Visage[/card][card]Desecrate Enchantments[/card][card]Reckless Haste[/card][card]Blood Ritual[/card][card]Resurrection Signet[/card]
Template Code : OAVEEKZmd8sEyDiAPoLUo9GEAA

Videos:

Monk Perspective:
http://files.filefront.com/WAX_UW_Mo.../fileinfo.html
This video shows off the monk tanking 5 Aatxes, while the necro manages the scatter. One Aatxes breaks and starts attacking the necro

Necro Perspective:
http://files.filefront.com/WAX_UW_SS.../fileinfo.html
This video shows the monk tanking 2 Aatxes and 3 Grasps, the necro moves in and ends up taking most of the aggro at the end of the fight due to severe scatter

http://files.filefront.com/WAX_UW_SS.../fileinfo.html
Another necro perspective of the monk tanking 5 smites, scatter occurs and an ecto drops

http://files.filefront.com/WAX_UW_SS.../fileinfo.html
4 Aatxes aggro'd, the necro manages the scatter of one of them. Notice the bleeding at the end

The Difference

The difference in the build is this: The necro runs as a 55 necro

Yes, a 55 necro. Obviously you will need the -50hp CoA Cesta, and I suggest using the Curses Wailing Wand you can craft at Vasburg Armory in Cantha as your primary, and bringing along a StoneReaper if you need some extra energy for a quick cast.

Understanding scatter

In hardmode, when you have a mob of more than 3 monsters, and AoE damage is applied to the mob, the monsters will scatter to try and heal themselves. It is this scatter effect that makes duo'ing difficult and often results in the poor necro getting obliterated.
If we look deeper however, we might wonder WHY does the necro get killed during scatter, and the answer is simple - while scattering, monsters can still obtain aggro of a different target and their initial intention of healing themselves is superceded by their desire to kill anything they can.

Now that we have this basic understanding of what is happening, lets look at how we can 'harness the scatter'.

Harnessing Scatter

I will assume that most teams do not aggro more than 3 aatxes at a time, so I will discuss how to manage smite scatter instead, since this is where most teams fall over and /resign.

Assume that you have just entered the Ice Wastelands and are facing a group of 5 smites. You know that after the initial SS, 2-3 of the smites will scatter to heal, making the process of killing them exponentially long (if the necro doesn't die). However, with this method, we WANT the smites to scatter and aggro onto the necro.

Here is the method we use - we are in no way saying this is the only way of doing it, but it is something we've been using since the nightfall nerf of SS, and it works like clockwork.

1. Monk obtains aggro of the group of 5 smites
2. Once the smites have settled, the necro runs into the monks aggro bubble
3. The monk will signal to the necro that he is stable and ready by casting PS and HB on the necro. Due to the recharge times of PS and HB, the monk can now start cycling the casts of these spells on himself and on the necro. Do not miss a beat here, else one of you will die.
4. Once the necro has the protective spells on, he can cast his SV and AV.
5. Before casting SS, the necro must run directly up to the monk (i.e. stand next to the monk putting himself directly in the firing line of a rogue smite).
6. The necro casts SS on the smites.

From here things basically take care of themselves. As expected, a second or so after the intial SS is cast, a few of the smites will begin to scatter. However, because the necro is in their immediate aggro area, they will immediately aggro onto him, and come back into the are of effect of Spiteful Spirit, hence continuing the damage in an almost seamless fashion.

As long as the monk and SS do not move and just continue casting the necessary spells, the smites will not scatter again, and will die just as they usually do.

It is very important to understand that moving will potentially break scatter and will mean that the monk and SS have to start all over again on the mob.

[EDIT] - The max mob size you can aggro is 6. For some reason, if you have 7+ monsters aggro'd, scatter will occur, and not all the monsters will aggro onto the necro. No idea why this is this way - just an FYI

Where else will this work?

Well, the truth is, it works everywhere. All monster types. So yes, you can aggro a group of 2 aatxe and 3 graspings in the chamber and destroy them as easily in HM as you can in Normal Mode. The only provision is that the necro needs to be aware of monsters that can interrupt the monk. If the team faces a mob of these, I would advise that the necro maintains SV and AV on the monk in order to minimize interrupts while the monk is keeping the team alive.

Variations

At this point, I don't know of any proven variations of this build. Due to necro needing the same life maintaining spells to be cast as the monk does, we find that PS and HB are the best for this purpose. I would be very interested to hear if anyone comes up with new variations tho

General Notes

Firstly, thanks to my friends who helped perfect the build and method (Martin Pwns UW [WAX], Blue Serena [WAX], Skyspirit Necro [WAX]).
With regards to run speed, it is only a little bit slower as compared to a normal mode run, and you gain the benefit of higher gold drop rates (ecto rates don't seem to have changed) and obviously much more XP.

olly123 · May 07, 2007, 10:19 AM // 10:19

nice guide very clear, but would casting 2 10e spells twice over, so 40 energy, wast up the monsk energy? and also the monk has no mending, so whenu take the bleeding ur down to about 4-5 regain, is that enought?, not picking holes, just wondering

carribus · May 07, 2007, 10:45 AM // 10:45

My mistake. I've updated the guide and replaced Essence Bond with Mending. As for casting PS and HB repetitively, remember, that you only do this during a fight, so you can assume that you're gaining energy at a decent rate to be able to cater for the energy cost. If you get into trouble, just hit Bonetti's to quickly recover some energy (obviuosly not ideal while fighting smites, but I've never had an energy problem due to the recharge times - I generally wait till both skills are recharged before commencing with another cast cycle).

ACreator · May 07, 2007, 11:02 AM // 11:02

if monk can I would take out bonnetis defence and mending and be Mo/D with mystic regen + balth spirit

carribus · May 07, 2007, 11:08 AM // 11:08

Why take out Bonetti's? Bonetti's is there for you to generate energy and manage LARGE groups. But I guess as long as you're not intending to replace HB with Mystic Regen, then I guess it could work, although, when cast with a Healing scalp (+4 Heal), Mending will give you +4 health regen ALL the time, without requiring a recast every 20 seconds.

jbwarrior · May 07, 2007, 12:07 PM // 12:07

Sounds nice, but can you post some screen's...

carribus · May 07, 2007, 12:15 PM // 12:15

Will get a video posted as soon as I can

Levi Garett · May 07, 2007, 02:28 PM // 14:28

If the Necro is going to be tanking then the monk should put EB on the necro which will give the monk NRG when the necro is getting hit (since the monk has to maintain PS+HB on the necro).

Mo/W might be needed for grasps. Sometimes it's critical to have that 75% dodge rate to avoid distracting blows or skull cracks. But if you're using SV/AV then it's overkill for the most part. Mo/D is 10X better than Mo/W outside of the dodging provided by Bonetties. You don't need all that energy anyhow when you only have to cast PS+Mystic every 20-25 seconds.

I would try this bar for Mo/D:

[card]Protective Spirit[/card][card]Shield of Absorption[/card][card]Shielding Hands[/card][card]Spell Breaker[/card][card]Mystic Regeneration[/card][card]Blessed Aura[/card][card]Essence Bond[/card][card]Balthazar's Spirit[/card]

This bar will free up a bunch of attribs too since you don't need 12 Healing (9+3; 9+3+1 with headpiece swap for +4 Mending). You'll need 8 in earth prayers and the leftovers you can pump into Divine for longer Spellbreaker and Blessed aura.

Now when the necro tanks just cast PS+SH on him, then when SH is about 75% regen'd cast SoA on him. You should have enough time in between SH and SoA casts to put EB on the necro as well (or already have it maintained on him before you start the smites).

You take zero damage always when alternating SH/SoA so you can aggro infinate amounts...

carribus · May 07, 2007, 03:06 PM // 15:06

Yeah, you're absolutely right. I'm going to try this when I get home, but I expect good results. Only problem is being able to cater for bleeding when you aggro a large group of aatxes and/or a mixed group of aatxes and grasplings. If the aatxes get hold of the necro, you can't really counter the bleeding unless you spam the skills on the necro for the duration of the bleeding effect.

Levi Garett · May 07, 2007, 03:33 PM // 15:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by carribus

Yeah, you're absolutely right. I'm going to try this when I get home, but I expect good results. Only problem is being able to cater for bleeding when you aggro a large group of aatxes and/or a mixed group of aatxes and grasplings. If the aatxes get hold of the necro, you can't really counter the bleeding unless you spam the skills on the necro for the duration of the bleeding effect.

Try swapping [skill]Blood Renewal[/skill] for Blood Ritual or Rez Sig to combat the bleeding. Rez Sig is pretty much a waste anyways (Sunspear Rebirth Sig would be a better choice). BR has its uses but only really adds speed to your runs. Even with 0 Blood attribs Blood Renewal will give you +3 regen to combat the bleeding. I'm pretty sure you'll only sac ~15hp (with 55hp max) with the 25% life sac. Assuming you're using 20% enchants on the Necro (I'd hope you were with SV/AV) Blood Renewal will be ready to cast again before it wears off.

Let us know, and good luck.

ShadowbaneX · May 07, 2007, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Levi Garett

Try swapping [skill]Blood Renewal[/skill] for Blood Ritual or Rez Sig to combat the bleeding. Rez Sig is pretty much a waste anyways (Sunspear Rebirth Sig would be a better choice). BR has its uses but only really adds speed to your runs. Even with 0 Blood attribs Blood Renewal will give you +3 regen to combat the bleeding. I'm pretty sure you'll only sac ~15hp (with 55hp max) with the 25% life sac. Assuming you're using 20% enchants on the Necro (I'd hope you were with SV/AV) Blood Renewal will be ready to cast again before it wears off.

Let us know, and good luck.

Actually, if you're going the 55 route even with 0 in blood you've got level 3, which is +4 health regen.

Thomas Valheru · May 07, 2007, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Levi Garett

If the Necro is going to be tanking then the monk should put EB on the necro which will give the monk NRG when the necro is getting hit (since the monk has to maintain PS+HB on the necro).

Mo/W might be needed for grasps. Sometimes it's critical to have that 75% dodge rate to avoid distracting blows or skull cracks. But if you're using SV/AV then it's overkill for the most part. Mo/D is 10X better than Mo/W outside of the dodging provided by Bonetties. You don't need all that energy anyhow when you only have to cast PS+Mystic every 20-25 seconds.

I would try this bar for Mo/D:

[card]Protective Spirit[/card][card]Shield of Absorption[/card][card]Shielding Hands[/card][card]Spell Breaker[/card][card]Mystic Regeneration[/card][card]Blessed Aura[/card][card]Essence Bond[/card][card]Balthazar's Spirit[/card]

This bar will free up a bunch of attribs too since you don't need 12 Healing (9+3; 9+3+1 with headpiece swap for +4 Mending). You'll need 8 in earth prayers and the leftovers you can pump into Divine for longer Spellbreaker and Blessed aura.

Now when the necro tanks just cast PS+SH on him, then when SH is about 75% regen'd cast SoA on him. You should have enough time in between SH and SoA casts to put EB on the necro as well (or already have it maintained on him before you start the smites).

You take zero damage always when alternating SH/SoA so you can aggro infinate amounts...

I have to say that I, who've used this setup and playstyle alot have never noticed a problem with energy (I play 55 btw), however I use balthazar's spirit, and coupled with divine sig I've only found myself lacking in energy when I've timed bonetti's badly vs graspings.
The place bonetti's really shine is vs dryders, and I'm not talking about those small groups of just 3, I'm talking about the quest that spawns a sweet 18 of them, without bonetti's and the divine favor from PS/HB there's no way you can survive those, and ofcourse you can't really aggro infinte amounts since they run off and heal :P
Just my 2 cents

Levi Garett · May 07, 2007, 07:19 PM // 19:19

I cleaned up a couple posts and the ensuing replies...You know who you are, and you've been warned. I'm personally getting sick of some of the crappy attitudes in Campfire.

This is NOT a pissing contest folks. This is a discussion about a theory/idea that has potential.

Please do not reply unless you are adding something constructive to this post.

Saying "this build works better why do you even bother" is not constructive.

There are many reasons why people use one build vs another:

Maybe your farming buddy hasn't capped that elite?
Maybe you don't have NF so you don't have that nice Dervish secondary?
Opinions are like, well you know..., and what works "faster" for you might not be "faster" for somebody else.
Some people are old and set in their ways (like me)...if it ain't broke don't fix it.

Shall I go on?

teotuf · May 07, 2007, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Mo/D won't work, and prot line monk won't work, because you have to maintain both players alive, and mystic regen/SoA won't allow you to keep 2 ppl alive for large groups.

Since Mo/W works with healing breeze, why not just be happy with it and use it? I don't seen any problem with it.

Mo/D is "better"? How? It can tank more guys, or you don't run out of energy? If it can tank more, well, just so you know, you should be trying to keep the aggro small to prevent scattering. Better energy management? Well, no offence, but if you run out of energy with BD in your bar... you really shouldn't be talking here.

P.S Dyrders in ice king does not scatter. And you can tank those with Mo/D with mirage cloak and and spamming essence bond/guardian/vigorous spirit/etc. And you can tank them better with fleeting stability.

carribus · May 07, 2007, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by teotuf

Mo/D won't work, and prot line monk won't work, because you have to maintain both players alive, and mystic regen/SoA won't allow you to keep 2 ppl alive for large groups.

Actually.. it does work

I just did a trial run, and although not extremely successful, it had the desired effect. I attribute my failure to the fact that I'm not used to the build and kept forgetting to renew Mystic Regen

I'm such a noob sometimes hehehe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by teotuf

If it can tank more, well, just so you know, you should be trying to keep the aggro small to prevent scattering. Better energy management? Well, no offence, but if you run out of energy with BD in your bar... you really shouldn't be talking here.

The whole point of this method is not to avoid scatter... but to harness it so that it seems that scatter didn't occur. So far, I still find the PS and HB method a LOT easier, but like I said, thats probably cos I'm used to it.

teotuf · May 07, 2007, 08:17 PM // 20:17

That is my point:

Mo/D is a better tank for general purposes, that's a given.
Mo/W is better for the purpose of managing scatter with a 55 necro. I'm just saying they shouldn't say Mo/D is better at this just because Mo/D is better than Mo/W in general.

Levi Garett · May 07, 2007, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by teotuf

Mo/D won't work, and prot line monk won't work, because you have to maintain both players alive, and mystic regen/SoA won't allow you to keep 2 ppl alive for large groups.

Since Mo/W works with healing breeze, why not just be happy with it and use it? I don't seen any problem with it.

Mo/D is "better"? How? It can tank more guys, or you don't run out of energy? If it can tank more, well, just so you know, you should be trying to keep the aggro small to prevent scattering. Better energy management? Well, no offence, but if you run out of energy with BD in your bar... you really shouldn't be talking here.

P.S Dyrders in ice king does not scatter. And you can tank those with Mo/D with mirage cloak and and spamming essence bond/guardian/vigorous spirit/etc. And you can tank them better with fleeting stability.

Please read the post before replying with bad information. Yes Mo/D is way better than Mo/W. Obviously you haven't even tried it. Mystic Regeneration can replace Mending AND Healing Breeze. And you get more pips of regen for less attribute points. Last time I checked replacing two skills for one was a good thing, and spending less attribute points is an added bonus.

You could easily maintain PS+SH/SoA combo on another person and keep them alive. It would also be less energy intensive than PS+HB.

And well, just so you know, the whole idea of this post is to use the scatter to your advantage. Why on earth are you preaching "small groups=no scatter".

In addition Bonetties Defense is going to do the Monk no good when the aggro switches to the necro...

Levi Garett · May 07, 2007, 08:26 PM // 20:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by teotuf

That is my point:

Mo/D is a better tank for general purposes, that's a given.
Mo/W is better for the purpose of managing scatter with a 55 necro. I'm just saying they shouldn't say Mo/D is better at this just because Mo/D is better than Mo/W in general.

Last time I checked mobs didn't check your secondary before they decided to scatter?

Mobs scatter because of either AoE or to heal themselves. Your choice of secondary does not matter at all. Now if we throw Zealots Fire into the mix perhaps we could have a good discussion on /W vs /D.

Teotuf have you used the PS+SH+SoA+Mystic combo? I hope you have because once you do nothing else comes close. Oh and btw I can use this combo maintaining two enchantments with only Balth's Spirit (no EB) so energy is NEVER a problem.

The.D0pefish · May 07, 2007, 08:44 PM // 20:44

hey me and a friend used the same idea when the aoe nerf was new ;P

teotuf · May 07, 2007, 09:30 PM // 21:30

uh... yes I have used that since day 1 of nightfall (actaully I lied, i didn't use SH at day 1) , i'm not attacking the Mo/D build, I'm just saying Mo/W does not run into energy problems for 1, and 2, Divine favor from HB make survival easier than from mystic regen (10 regen either way), and mo/w have a better guard against interrutp for HB than Mo/D for SoA

and yes i have read the post before replying. I'm pretty sure it's not his intent to mass aggro more than 5 or 6, but to mainly to fix the scatter. therefore, group size is still small enough for Mo/W to handle.