Curse

Yukito Kunisaki · Mar 29, 2006, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Use of Scorpion Wire and the ability to attack unhindered behind enemy lines is the plus and a swift escape and condition defense is part of efficiency. I like necro secondary and you won't need any points in any secondary stats so your primary skills are all runed up.

if you're feeling brave, you can go superior everything and run with little to no hp at all! [LOL]

16 Dagger Mastery
9 Critical Strikes
9 Deadly Arts
8 Shadow Arts

Falling Spider
Blinding Power
Twisting Fangs
Moebius Strike {E}
Scorpion Wire
Unseen Fury
Return
Plague Touch

Ok, you run in and cast Scorpion Wire, hopefully your teammates will cover the hex.

Run back and SNAP*, foe on back, and you're on top...

Start with Falling Spider, Blinding Power, then Twisting Fangs into a Moebius Strike, [all the while you're in Unseen Fury mode]. Voila, Bleeding, Poisoned, Blinded, Deep Wound, and you're unavoidable for a few seconds, which is all the time you'll need. Keep swinging at the poor fools with alternating Twisting Fangs and Moebius Strikes {E}. If they fight back by blinding/conditioning you, Plague touch it.

When things get hairy, use Return to make a quick retreat into friendly areas, ask for heals, wait, and look for another victim...

There you have it, the sling-shot sin...

Any idea on how to improve his evil hit-run tendencies? I looked at the other skills but the multi-purpose utility of the ones I picked r0x0rs...

note: for the FPE, the spells don't affect dagger combos. As long as you don't use the dagger strikes out of order, using spells in between doesn't hurt... [unless the spell COUNTS as a type of attack]

strengths: well, it is a string of unavoidable hits and with an 'entrance' of a knockdown after 'retreating' 100', there's not much you can say to say he doesn't surprise people...

weaknesses: yeah, if the Wire is gone, your whole game becomes a waiting game... But the assassin's first attack always determines if his assassination attempt works or not so I don't see the extreme problem here. anti-warrior/ranger skills will stop you so that's obvious... But, if you see someone getting knocked down by a hammer buddy, by all means, jump in on the action!

What's nice is that the idea of sniping from a long range and then returning, after delivering heavy poundage of 3 big hits, 4 conditions, and then dropping a 5th one on exit [yay cripple] leaves room for your Fragility Mesmers to say goodbye for ya... ^_^

Aside from Hex Removal and anti-melee defense, can anyone else help in making this sin slam harder? [all the while being unblockable?]

Siren · Mar 29, 2006, 09:01 PM // 21:01

I'm not feeling the Scorpion Spider opening, probably because I don't really think it's designed to be used as a primary target thing. I've always seen that skill as more of a situational skill. I mean, the spell has half the normal range to start, so you're already getting pretty close to the action. But then the skill is only useful when you're 100 feet away. So you're running in to cast it, then running away 100 feet. And that's only to prep your "lead attack."

I don't know. It just doesn't sound like it'd be an efficient use of Scorpion Wire. It's more a skill you cast on your target to limit their escape (runners, for example, whee!). It's not a skill you cast on your target to begin your attack.

Perhaps using Crippling Daggers or Dancing Daggers as the lead, then follow-up with Entangling Asp if you want the KD?

LaserLight · Mar 29, 2006, 10:06 PM // 22:06

I don't see the surprise aspect of this guy working on experienced players. Not to say I don't like the idea, but ye have to get within half spell range to cast it, then ye have to bolt away to 100'. All the while that icon in the upper left corner is shouting to someone at the top of their lungs that "You're gonna get knocked down in a moment here!"

That said...aside from begging for a Hex removal, there's not all that much most guys can do about it

. Chasing you all over town to stop the KD will effectively disable this Assassin entirely, but if that's the case, then you've pulled what I can only hope is a vital caster out of position and forced him to stop casting and start sprinting.

The build is a good use of an awkward skill and for that I give it kudos, but it's an awfully touchy build whose offense is shot if it can't get its hex off. However, if you can get into Twisting Fangs, then you're good since the Dual mark easily outlasts Moebius' recharge time. Here's hoping it works out for ye, man.

Also, note to all other Assassin players: see that Return skill there? The one that lets you teleport away from danger? Learn, Live, and Love XP. I do belive that, eventually, Return will be significantly more useful and popular than Death's Charge. Ye have to get the poof out as well as the poof in, folks.

Yukito Kunisaki · Mar 30, 2006, 02:07 PM // 14:07

Good thoughts that I've covered already.

True, if the hex is gone, you've lost your combo. However, for other 'experienced' players. They'll obviously try to NOT get hit by your opening attacks anyway... So the weakness is simply different than most 'norm' assassins. Just hex / blind the assassin before he gets near you, not easy, but not impossible either...

If you land a hex and then bolt, that foe's ally has about 2 seconds room to cast. Btw, you can use Return on a backend teammate to get to 100' faster... [evil laugh...

] Not like your entire team runs up into your enemy's face, [unless they're dumb]

Hence: Sling-Shot-Sin...

If you're sure of yourself, you CAN go Mesmer secondary using Illusion to back Fragility, problem? You lose Rune power for your primary stats... Let a mes with 16 illusion back ya up, they'll love ya...

Great ideas so far, any others?

Siren · Mar 30, 2006, 05:37 PM // 17:37

I see two problems with using Return immediately after you've gotten in range to use Scorpion Wire:

One, I couldn't imagine that backline teammates will be remotely close to 100 feet. Scorpion Wire has half the normal range, right? So if normal spells have a casting range of In The Area, that means if your backline teammates are casting support for the frontline characters, they're In The Area, unless you've got the E/Mo Heal Party/Aegis kind of build for one of them. Then that character could be farther back.

But generally, you're rarely going to see the kinds of required distances you'd need to do a Scorpion Wire-->Return combination effective.

Two, it just seems like a waste, using Return in that kind of a situation. Return has such potential as a fast escape skill...why not use it as such? I mean, sure, the above combo may work, but I don't think you'd be using Return as well as say, in a Death's Charge-->Unsuspecting Strike-->Entangling Asp-->Falling Spider combination.

And with that Death's Charge and Entangling Asp combo...it seems like it'd make Scorpion Wire more of a control skill, like LaserLight has suggested. They can't run from you too far; if they do, they're getting knocked out. It's a suppression skill, not a lead skill.

Bloodied Blade · Mar 30, 2006, 10:53 PM // 22:53

Won't work...

There's just too many monks that have hex and condition removal now... Even the premade build players know to remove pink arrows. You could try a cover hex like mirrored stance or something like that... I just don't see an assassin running 100' away from me, me falling down, and them managing to kill me.

Maybe knocking them down in melee...but not from range. Maybe Gale or Bane Signet or something like it would work.

SparhawkJC · Mar 31, 2006, 06:06 AM // 06:06

In my opinion scorpion wire is not really something you want to lead off with. It's more of a contingency plan if you find that your target isn't dead and his teammates are coming to bail his sorry ass out. It's perfect for using to kite the warriors towards your teammates and away from your target. Then snapping back after your combo has recharged and your pursuers are otherwise engaged.

Yukito Kunisaki · Mar 31, 2006, 04:17 PM // 16:17

Hmm, ok, those suggestions make sense...
A/N

16 Dagger Mastery
9 Critical Strikes
9 Deadly Arts
8 Shadow Arts

Unsuspecting Strike
Wild Strike
Twisting Fangs
Moebius Strike {E}
Shadow Refuge
Siphon Speed
Expunge Enchantments
Plague Touch

It's tough with the combo system to knock down your foe for falling spider to take effect. [entangling asp poisons and knocks down simultaneously so it does not synergize with Falling Spider at all...]

Offensive attack style following old formula I love using as a base:
top priority: 16 weapon, 4 weapon attack skills
2ndary priority: containment, bring snare / speed skill for attack/escape. Yay for Siphon Speed being both!
3rd priority: healing, Plague Touch and Shadow Refuge do the job well
support: no enchants for j00, wild strike ftw

This build was redesigned so that you still have quite a bit of trouble fighting back. By stripping enchantments/stances, defense should be difficult to come by. Thankfully, although I've lost the sudden teleporting ability of the first build, I still remain high speed thanks to Siphon Speed and that doesn't hurt, though it does compromise surprise...

It's tough finding a good balance for offense, containment, and healing. However, if you believe in your monk, ditching Shadow Refuge for Return wouldn't be a bad idea, or if you're feeling evil: Impale...

Siren · Mar 31, 2006, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

[entangling asp poisons and knocks down simultaneously so it does not synergize with Falling Spider at all...]

How do you figure? Falling Spider needs to attack a knocked-down foe. It doesn't cause KD. Sure, you'd be renewing the poison, but that doesn't mean the combo doesn't have synergy. It's actually a pretty beautiful combination. You open up with your lead, then Entangling Asp, then Falling Spider.

Yukito Kunisaki · Mar 31, 2006, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

How do you figure? Falling Spider needs to attack a knocked-down foe. It doesn't cause KD. Sure, you'd be renewing the poison, but that doesn't mean the combo doesn't have synergy. It's actually a pretty beautiful combination. You open up with your lead, then Entangling Asp, then Falling Spider.

Applying poison 2x I suppose works if the enemy's anti-poison teammates/skills are working...

But the problem I have with that is damage technically... Horns of the Ox into Falling Spider > Entangling Asp into Falling Spider.

Also, E. Asp will need to be done at point-blank for the FS to connect. Horns of the ox does more damage and you're already in range... At least, that's what I've seen with my sin trying said combos...

Siren · Mar 31, 2006, 07:47 PM // 19:47

But remember the big conditional for the Horns of the Ox KD: your target can't be near any of his or her allies. Now granted, lately, people have been scattering. It's just the nature of PvP. But as time goes on, and people start realizing the power of an Assassin against a straggler target, they'll resist spreading out so much.

I'm not arguing that Horns of the Ox couldn't be useful. I'm saying that Entangling Asp may very well be the more efficient all-around KD.

Plus, if your concern is being in-range, you've got a lead attack already (Unsuspecting Strike), so provided you use that, you're good to go to use Entangling Asp (it needs to follow a lead, but doesn't count as an off-hand), then follow it with Falling Spider.

What may be worth testing out is the following:

Unsuspecting Strike-->Entangling Asp-->Wild Strike-->Falling Spider-->Twisting Fangs

Since Falling Spider's use is only dependent on hitting a knocked-down foe, there should be no problem using Wild Strike before it, provided you need a stance-killer.

Yukito Kunisaki · Mar 31, 2006, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Sins can't wear stonefist gauntlets...

Uh, is there enough time even with aftercast lag to land a wild strike? I doubt it.

And as far as proximity is concerned, I very rarely fight foes who are all bunched together in a clump, that just screams METEOR US!! AoE, etc...

With fear of AoE in your team, I think Horns of the Ox ends up being perfectly fine. True, Entangling does knock down but I find the conditional damage to be more useful than double application of poison...

Just me I suppose...

Siren · Mar 31, 2006, 11:21 PM // 23:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

Sins can't wear stonefist gauntlets...

What does this have to do with anything? Certainly nothing in my post. lol

Quote:

Uh, is there enough time even with aftercast lag to land a wild strike? I doubt it.

If you need to use Wild Strike, your lead attack (and attack combo) is screwed anyway. Until Wild Strike is changed so that it doesn’t have to be part of a chain combo (possibly functioning like Dancing Daggers), going Warrior secondary for Wild Blow, or using Assassin’s Expose Defenses or Unseen Fury is the way to go.

Quote:

And as far as proximity is concerned, I very rarely fight foes who are all bunched together in a clump, that just screams METEOR US!! AoE, etc...

With fear of AoE in your team, I think Horns of the Ox ends up being perfectly fine. True, Entangling does knock down but I find the conditional damage to be more useful than double application of poison...

I rarely fight foes that are bunched up, too. But bunched-up foes do happen. And when it does happen, your combo doesn’t work. Entangling is a guaranteed KD. Horns is not.

Shatterstone · Mar 31, 2006, 11:32 PM // 23:32

i used a build with a similar goal: knock them down then pile on the conditions an dmg ftw.

13 critical(minor rune)
11 dagger(minor rune)
rest in shadow arts or w/e else u want
jagged strike
entangeling asp
falling spider
critical strike
moebius strike
twisting fangs
critical eye
return

with critical eye+13 points in critical strikes+zealous upgarde=no enrgy problems what so ever (skill critical strike fills almost half your enrgy bar back up with this combo)
:EDIT: im not entirely sure what the attribute points were except that critical strikes was at 13 for 3 enrgy per crit and that dagger mastery was pretty high for the damge bnus to normal attacks and many of the skill listed are dagger mastery based. rest of points really dont make a diffrence where u put them since entangleing asp is the only skill that doesnt use dagger mastery or critical and the increase in poision duration makes no diffrence.

Yukito Kunisaki · Apr 01, 2006, 08:49 AM // 08:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

What may be worth testing out is the following:
Unsuspecting Strike-->Entangling Asp-->Wild Strike-->Falling Spider-->Twisting Fangs

You just said this one post up, unless you meant something else...

So I wonder, after entangling, is there enough time to land a Wild Strike before doing falling spider? Like I said, sins can't keep enemies down with Stonefist the way warriors do...

Do you know what you post?

Shatterstone · Apr 01, 2006, 02:19 PM // 14:19

their isnt enought time for a wild strike to be thrown in. the point isnt to keep thier opponents kd'd its just to kd them long enough to get falling spider off. falling spider for me did about 57 dmg and added 17 secs of poison. jagged strike+entangleing asp+falling spider is a beutiful way to open you combo chain up. one might argue that this is an extreamly expensive opening but if you use 13 points in critical strikes+zealous dagger upgrade+critical eye+critical strike youll never have any energy problems. 6 skill combos like mine become pieces of cake to pull off. thiers too many ways to counter scorpian wire for me to use it. like said earlier, its an amazing control skill.

Yukito Kunisaki · Apr 01, 2006, 05:48 PM // 17:48

With that in mind, would it be feasible to treat crit. strike like Ranger Expertise?

as in:

9+1+3 Critical Strike
11+1 Dagger Mastery
etc...

Siren · Apr 01, 2006, 11:50 PM // 23:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

You just said this one post up, unless you meant something else...

So I wonder, after entangling, is there enough time to land a Wild Strike before doing falling spider? Like I said, sins can't keep enemies down with Stonefist the way warriors do...

Do you know what you post?

Re-read my above posts. I'm not repeating myself. I know what I post.

Wild Strike, in its current form, is pretty much useless. It absolutely cannot be an off-hand attack to be used as a stance-killer. It either needs to be a lead attack, or not designated as part of the attack chains at all. I'm leaning toward the latter.

If your lead can't hit through Distortion, for example, using Wild Strike is impossible.

And further, if your lead can't hit, you won't be able to do any KD-based damage, which makes the KD build irrelevant in most cases:

Falling Spider depends on Entangling. Entangling depends on Unsuspecting Strike (or whatever lead you decide to use).

Incidentally, I included Wild Strike in the combination previously to prove a point. Not having enough KD time from Entangling so you can land a Wild Strike doesn't matter when you can't even knock the foe down in the first place due to evasion stances that necessitate using Wild Strike.

Yukito Kunisaki · Apr 02, 2006, 06:39 AM // 06:39

I too vote that Wild Strike should be a lead attack as well...

Siren · Apr 02, 2006, 06:47 AM // 06:47

Wild Strike really should be separate from the attack chains to begin with...shouldn't even be a lead attack, really.