Curse

Dragannia · Mar 28, 2006, 06:44 AM // 06:44

So, we all got a look at the new skills for Factions. Since this is a Mesmer only discussion, I'll drop it here rather than the Factions forum.

Here's a link to new skills' descriptions.

http://www.gwonline.net/page.php?p=184

So, what did we all think? Overall, I'd say Mesmer came out in this one second best. Warriors and especially Necromancers got an almighty hand up, but there are quite a few good Mesmer skills, but a lot of bad ones. Keep in mind I'm doing this from a purely PvP perspective.

Domination Magic

Arcane Larceny- I love it. A duplicate of Arcane Thievery rocks, enabling us to steal two skills for less than what it would have cost to get Arcane Echo. Now, we could do a Thievery, Larceny, Arcane Echo, Echo, and Signet of Humilty combo, though at that point disabling the same skill twice becomes much higher, so I'd just use Thievery and Larceny in a regular shutdown build. This skill rocks, just like its predecessor.

Complicate- Not bad, not bad at all. It interrupts skills, not just spells, and the anti-signet effect also adds a lot to it. With only a 20 second recharge, generally same as most of the others Mesmer interrupts, this is definately a good skill on an interrupt Mesmer's skillbar.

Overload- An excellent skill is all I can say. Spammable, and deals 50+ damage. Easily an Elementalist's bane.

Psychic Distraction {E}- An incredibly good skill. You may not be able to spam it much, but the 2 second recharge and the fact that it disables a skill makes it pristine Elite.

Psychic Instability {E}- Now this is a funny skill. At first, my thought was, "Wow. This is the WORST skill I have ever seen." But then, you realise that with a Ranger primary or secondary (primary would be better, for Expertise), you can go Serpent's Quickness, then spam Savage Shot and Distracting Shot, keeping them down indefinately. I'll need to try this strategy out, but it's not as bad as I first thought. Still, it's a pretty bad Elite.

Signet of Disruption- Eh. Not a bad skill, since they're going to be hexed with the likes of Migraine or Arcane Conundrum. The 30 second recharge is bad though, and I'd choose another skill over it anyday, despite the fact it has no energy cost.

Unnatural Signet- I personally love this skill. Use it to knock out any KEY spirit. Key is the...key word here (

), since you can't really afford to spend the entire match destroying Pain or something. It also works as a finishing move, though I wouldn't use it much since it has a long recharge.

Fast Casting

Arcane Languor {E}- I've talked about this skill before, so I'll just copy and paste. The first time I saw it, I thought, wow, a nice skill. Good for shutting down Monks and the like. But then you realise that Monks are always on low energy anyway, so it doesn't really hurt them that much (except for specific types of Monks). And even if they do stop casting, it's only for 5 seconds, and there are much better ways of shutting down a Monk for 5 seconds (ie, Backfire or Diversion and the likes). Against Necros it would hurt, but then again, as a Mesmer I always go for the Monk, so a generally moot point for me.

Power Return- Now here's a strange skill. The seven second recharge makes it cool, but then you're giving them 5 energy everytime you interrupt him, and that's at full Fast Casting, which you don't need if you're playing an interrupt Mesmer. Not a very good skill, in my opinion, but you may be able to make it work.

Stolen Speed {E}- An interesting spell. With a 6 second recharge, it's almost spammable, and you can use it with interrupts to interrupt multiple targets. Not bad, but it'll take skill to use.

Illusion Magic

Accumulated Pain- With this you won't need Phantom Pain anymore. A good skill, since they're probably going to have two or more hexes on them anyway. However, with the 20 second recharge, it won't really be that wieldy to use, but I'd still choose this skill over Phantom Pain as it gives me a slot free (since I won't really need Shatter Delusions).

Ancestor's Visage- We didn't really need a duplicate for Sympathetic Visage, though you could keep it on someone permanently. Still, no real use.

Conjure Nightmare- This skill really turns me off. 25 to cast, for only 8 degen, whereas I could simply use Conjure Phantasm and Images of Remorse to get 10 degen for only 15 energy. Still, it's spammable, and you'll need Glyph of Leser Energy or something, but I personally don't like this skill.

Illusion of Pain- Now here's an interesting skill. Definately a finishing move, as the degen is needed to kill them fast, before ten seconds. However, overall, this skill does not look effective at all, since degen caps at 10 and with a DOT spell doing 200 damage over ten seconds, it's too easily removed (giving them 200 free health), or healed through. However, it's been confirmed that with Mantra of Persistence, the length lasts longer but their healing isn't affected, so you could get a net loss on the enemy's health. So it has it's uses, and could be a good way to give the enemy -10 degen for a time.

Images of Remorse- Amazing, amazing skill. So many ways to use it. At 16 Illusion, it deals somewhere around 55 damage and gives 5 degen. With only a 5 second recharge, it's spammable, though the 2 second casting times is a bit annoying (but you're a Mesmer! What are you doing without around 10 Fast Casting!). It fits in well with an Ineptitude build, dealing 147, then 97, then 55, and then you can give them Conjure Phantasm to add to their troubles, for 299 damage and 10 degen. Ouch.

Kitah's Burden- Same as Ethereal Burden. We didn't really need a replicate.

Recurring Insecurity {E}- Awesome name, bad skill. For an Elite, which only does 3 degen? I mean, sure, it can be done over and over again with Wastrel's Worry or Conjure Phantasm, but then you're wasting an Elite! It's not a bad skill, just that there are FAR better ways to spend your Elite slot.

Shared Burden {E}- Not a bad skill. In the area, so a large radius. Can be made awesome in HoH, where everyone is generally bunched together (and hit them with an AoE Elementalist skill like Meteor Shower). Definately has potentional.

Inspiration Magic

Auspicious Incantation- Um...this is a strange skill, indeed. Very large recharge, and disables TWO of your skills (itself included). Generally, I can't see a single use for this skill, so I'd give it a big thumbs down.

Ether Signet- 90 second recharge is all I have to say. 18 energy gain is pretty good, so I'd definately give it a whirl with the likes of Mantra of Signets or Keystone Signet. It'll have place in a general signet build, but I'd give it a miss.

Feedback- Wow. This is an excellent skill. 30 second recharge is long, but I can definately see it in a Surge or E-Denial build. However, there are better ways of draining your opponent's energy, but I'm sure going to test it out in a Surge build soon, when Factions arrive.

Hex Eater Signet- Eh, a nice support skill. However, it'll require coordination for you to get more than 2 people (yourself included) in a tight group. The energy gain is very nice, but then again, it has a 45 second recharge. I suppose it might work with Keystone or Mantra of Inscriptions/Signets, but overall I'd say a decent skill, but meh.

Lyssa's Aura {E}- An excellent skill. It definately is worth it, especially if you're a Monk, since you'll get targetted alot by Mesmers and spikers. With a recharge of only 15 seconds, this is definately one of the better Factions skills.

Power Leech {E}- A lot of potential, especially on a Monk and the likes. Might work with a Mind Wrack build, but keeping a Monk shutdown for 10 seconds is pretty cool. However, since they're on 5 energy most of the time, it might not really work well. A better target would be a Mesmer, since they're frequently casting a lot of spells, and Elementalists as well. Has its uses, I suppose, but for an Elite it's lacking slightly.

Revealed Hex & Enchantment- Nothing really to say here. Just duplicates of Inspired Hex and Enchantment.

No Attribute

Expel Hexes {E}- One of the best Factions skills out. This is Remove Hex, on crack. With a 1 second cast time, you won't get interrupted, and with an 8 second recharge, it's easily manageable, and with 5 energy cost, it's simply godly.

Lyssa's Balance- This skill is so god damned bad I can't believe it's here. Let's see...Drain Enchantment is free at 0 Inspiration, so it's better energy wise, has a faster casting time, and recharges faster! Oh, and you can use a focus with it! I shudder at this skill.

Shatter Storm {E}- I don't like this skill. I don't like it at all. If they have one enchantment, sure it's great, but with usually >20 second recharge, it's not spammable at all. There are far better ways of removing your opponents' enchantments, like the new (and positively RIGGED) Necromancer skill, Gaze of Contempt. This is also an Elite skill, which makes it worse. There are far better ways of spending your Elite.

Signet of Disenchantment- 15 recharge, so not bad but hardly spammable. It may seem good for Warriors, but then you realise that Drain Enchantment is free at 0 Inspiriation, and is faster to activate. Also, Warrior Mesmers have access to Blackout, so why the hell do you want your Energy pool to be depleted and crawling back towards 10 at two arrows? A bad, bad skill.

So there's my summary. All in all, a bad group of skills, with some blatantly needing a boost. What are your opinions?

LightningHell · Mar 28, 2006, 11:27 AM // 11:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragannia

Also, Warrior Mesmers have access to Blackout, so why the hell...

You don't really want Blackout on a Warrior. At all.

Erm...about the skills...they're really...mediocre...

Here's my take on them.

Arcane Larceny- I never liked Arcane Thievery, except when I'm thieving Gale from a W/E.

So, you could say, I'm more neutral on this.

Complicate- Not bad, especially against those Wars with Healing Signet.

Overload- Very good. I would lower the recharge to 4 though.

Psychic Distraction {E}- Incredibly well-made, but I have a feeling you'd have to build your whole build around it...wait, you have to anyways...

Psychic Instability {E}- I'm going to glomp Psychic Distraction for the moment. This...well...

Signet of Disruption- I don't like it simply because of its recharge.

Unnatural Signet- I don't like it, since you have to use, like, six US-es to kill a single spirit.

Fast Casting

Arcane Languor {E}- The short duration makes it throw it away. But that's because I'm not bothered to time and such. A good skill, if you time it correctly with your team. o_O

Power Return- No...no.

Stolen Speed {E}- I'll have to see how it's used, yet.

Illusion Magic

Accumulated Pain- It looks pretty good.

Ancestor's Visage - It might be used, since SV doesn't exactly benefit from the long recharge.

Conjure Nightmare- Barf barf barf.

Illusion of Pain- Interesting. I'd see more play with this.

Images of Remorse- Just quite amazing.

Kitah's Burden- No one uses Ethereal Burden for a reason...?

Recurring Insecurity {E}- Good skill? Yes. Good Elite? No.

Shared Burden {E}- Maybe has a use in HA, I wouldn't know and it's not my job to know...is it?

Inspiration Magic

Auspicious Incantation- Strangely bad.

Ether Signet- At first I looked, I thought wow, not bad. But then, my eye floated to the 90-recharge.

Feedback- No-crap you will see it in EDenial.

Hex Eater Signet- You'd have to get your group to huddle together. Not a bad skill, though.

Lyssa's Aura {E}- Love the name, love the ability. Could have been longer with a higher ECost, though.

Power Leech {E}- Not bad. Definitely see some play.

Revealed Hex & Enchantment- Inspired Enchant already has no play...

No Attribute

Expel Hexes {E}- OMFG HAXXORZ! This is just so good...

Lyssa's Balance- One of the worst skills I've seen so far.

Shatter Storm {E}- I don't get the elite-ness.

Signet of Disenchantment- BS.

Dragannia · Mar 28, 2006, 11:57 AM // 11:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

You don't really want Blackout on a Warrior. At all.

Oh really? And why's that? A Warrior with Blackout can assist majorly in destroying a Monk.

Valkyries · Mar 28, 2006, 12:24 PM // 12:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragannia

Oh really? And why's that? A Warrior with Blackout can assist majorly in destroying a Monk.

Because the Warrior will loose all Adrienline if they cast blackout.

Casting Blackout ON a Warrior is a good thing. Casting Blackout AS a Warrior doesn't make a ton of sense to me. You are then completely limited to swings of your weapon. Why not leave Blackout to the Mesmers who are already targetting the Monk and smashing them to the ground?? It could be better used elsewhere.

LightningHell · Mar 28, 2006, 12:33 PM // 12:33

Damn, beat me to it

Avarre · Mar 28, 2006, 12:52 PM // 12:52

Quote:

Power Return- Now here's a strange skill. The seven second recharge makes it cool, but then you're giving them 5 energy everytime you interrupt him, and that's at full Fast Casting, which you don't need if you're playing an interrupt Mesmer. Not a very good skill, in my opinion, but you may be able to make it work.

I <3

This, coupled with migrane builds, is the single most devastating thing you could use. You're not draining energy anyway... so being able constantly interrupt is vicious.

My other favorites are Arcane Langour (Die you damn RoF spamming monk!), expel hexes, overload, illusions of remorse (pve), Stolen Speed (15 seconds long at 10FC, 6 second recharge... multitarget slowdown and lightning casting go!).

I'll have to play around more when I get the game to give a solid opinion on them, though.

Dragannia · Mar 28, 2006, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valkyries

Because the Warrior will loose all Adrienline if they cast blackout.

Casting Blackout ON a Warrior is a good thing. Casting Blackout AS a Warrior doesn't make a ton of sense to me. You are then completely limited to swings of your weapon. Why not leave Blackout to the Mesmers who are already targetting the Monk and smashing them to the ground?? It could be better used elsewhere.

They DO?! Since when?!

Well, I don't play Warriors, but it seems bloody weird to me.

Well, Drain Enchantment is still better that Signet, even then, unless they plan to stay on low energy.

rii · Mar 28, 2006, 09:01 PM // 21:01

LoL!

Kite-ahs Burden. They do have a sense of humour.

Also.... It was pointed out that illusion of pain combined with mantra of persistence will of course almost double the damage. A conjure that deals 350-400 damage... even over time the spammbility makes it look great. A fast hex removal makes it a heal... but thats a big threat every 5s..

Stuff like ether signet might actually make keystone signet justifiable over just mantra. However, what such a signet heavy build is going to do with almost +3 pips is beyong me.... i suppose ill have to spam conjure nightmare -.-

Arcanis the Omnipotent · Mar 29, 2006, 08:20 AM // 08:20

Just to note, used quote on Op's post just to make it easier to organize.

Domination Magic

Arcane Larceny- I never much used this spell's original. But I would imagine doubly stealing from foes would be quite the fun method. And like the OP said, echoing it has huge possibilities.

Complicate- What to do when Ignorance is recharging, and you need to stop a second warrior.

Overload- LOVE! Put it in with Surge and Burn for added mega damage.

Psychic Distraction {E}- Yay for spam. Best part about this elite is that its a spamable interupt that panders to Ele primaries. Huge energy stores, a fast casting time and a short recharge.

Psychic Instability {E}- Eh. I can see uses for it. Pair it with Clumsiness for a Damage/Knockdown. But the recharge needs to be reworked. It should be ready to go the second it wears off.

Signet of Disruption- I wouldnt choose this as my sole interupt skill. But as a pairing in an interupt build, its fine. An interupt for when you need time to recharge your energy for a better interupt. I think possibly the best part of this skill is that it can interupt anything, not just spells or signets.

Unnatural Signet- Keystone Signet Build, this bastard is a spammable death dealer. In an anti-caster build, it could easily screw over any ritualist. I just like this one.

Fast Casting

Arcane Languor {E}- I had this big speal about how great this skill was gonna be. Then I reread it after a different thread showed me the error in my thinking. Basically, this whole skill has 4 seconds to work. Not only that, you have anticipate the casting of a spell. If thing lasted as long as Backfire, yeah, it'd be worth an Elite. But right now, this spell blows hard. About as hard as Lyssa's Balance. *see below*

Power Return- Dont know about this. It seems like a quirky little skill. And like Avarre said, in Migraine builds this would be quite interesting. "Here, I've shut you down entirely, have some energy back" But we'll just have to see how it works out.

Stolen Speed {E}- I see so much abuse of this skill.

Illusion Magic

Accumulated Pain- Wow. Ok, I saw a couple people say that you dont need Phantom Pain anymore. And truthfully, I see this being more useful paired with Phantom. A renewing Deep Wound. Hell, make your 2 Hexes Frag and Phantom Pain and watch the fun. This is the Frag Mesmer's new happy spell. Pair this with Mantra of Recovery. Watch the fun.

Ancestor's Visage- Soothing Images was so much more useful in Prophecies. So, why would we need a copy of the lesser skill?

Conjure Nightmare- Ugh... could have been great. I really hope this is the first spell to get the Buff Stick. Make it 15 energy. Then it's useable. Compared to Phantasm, that's 5 more energy for 3 more Degen. Instead of 15 for 3. That's not good math Anet.

Illusion of Pain- Only viable in a Mesmer Damage build, like Anti-tanks. But if you pair with Accumulated Pain, it becomes a little more interesting. Imagine this pops while the foe has a Deep wound. That reduces the healing by 4 for each second. And while that's not alot, that's still a difference of..40 health. 200 to 160. It has potential, if paired with the right skills.

Images of Remorse- I'm somewhat scared about this skill. It HAS to be used while the foe is attacking. Which leads to alot of possible problems. Especially in say an Inept build. You have to use this skill first. Why? Because if you blind the target, alot of experienced warriors will stop attacking. So you have to cast this when your foe is already attacking you. Now while this is not a big problem, the foe could get off a good deal of damage before you fire off Inept. I see this as being good, but not great.

Kitah's Burden- Works great as Energy Management. Fire off both Burdens, get a huge return of energy when they wear off.

Recurring Insecurity {E}- I think this is going to be another one of those Underated skills. I can see this being by far the worst spam ever. Hex after Hex, constant Health Degen. Who cares about its own recharge time? Seriously, You put this at the beginning of your chain of hexes, and you have a long running 3 degen. And while that's not alot, its enough to get things interesting. This would be a great elite for a Mesmer and Necro combination.

Shared Burden {E}- I kept trying to think of ways this would be good for a Mesmer primary, and I cant think of one. Other than general annoyance of your foes. And there are much better snares out there in Water Magic, and for the same energy/cast. The one thing this one has going for it is its range.

Inspiration Magic

Auspicious Incantation- Needs to be reworked desperately. Regain needs to be alot higher. Or, this spell needs to be more like the Elemental Attunements. Where its a constant return, not a single one. You can up the recharge still for the energy costs, but reduce the cost of the recharge to 3-1 seconds for each spell. "For 60 seconds, you gain back %-% of whatever you cast for, the recharge of this spell is upped by 3 seconds for each spell you cast"

Ether Signet- Mantra of Signets or Keystone definetly needed along side this one. And in that case, if you were trying to actually run a build where you need energy, then Mantra is your only viable choice. This needs to be reworked. Either give a much bigger energy boost, or give it a much shorter reload.

Feedback- Paired with The Handsmasher, and Mantra of Recovery, this could be alot more useful than it is right now. But, its definetly useful in a Denial build. Its just not overly reliable due to the recharge time. There are faster recharging energy denial, or enchantment stripping spells.

Hex Eater Signet- This will get used, especially in 12vs12 where lots of people are all bunched up together. I've seen alot of Necros there use Suffering.

Lyssa's Aura {E}- Love it. I've had plenty of times I've gotten into 1vs1 matches with other casters in the middle of battle. This is the perfect spell for those times.

Power Leech {E}I would love to use Arcane Mimicry with another Mesmer who has Lyssa's Aura and watch would would happen if you used these two together. This spell is comparable to Power Block. As Power Block is the Elite of Power Spike, this would be the elite of Power Leak. I would like this alot better if the Hex portion lasted about 10 seconds longer. It'd be like an energy stealing version of Backfire then.

Revealed Hex & Enchantment- Gonna be seeing alot of these doubled up with their twins.

No Attribute

Expel Hexes {E}- Love. That's all I have to say.

Lyssa's Balance- Compared to the other "God"-related skills... this blows so hard, it should be illegal to look at it.

Shatter Storm {E}- I can see where this was considered great in R&D. But in-game, its sorta bleh. It'd be great if the enchantments you removed were also disabled for a short ammount of time. Then the downfall of the spell would make more sense. But right now all it is a one shot full enchant removal. And that's not elite, hell there are Necro spells that do this already.

Signet of Disenchantment- Congratualtions Signet of Midnight, you are no longer the most useless Mesmer Signet...

A few of the skills need a buff, and a few need reworks entirely. But I'd say the majority are good skills. Very few are great and outstanding. I'm glad I'm bringing my mesmer over to Cantha, instead of starting a new one.

Dragannia · Mar 29, 2006, 08:22 PM // 20:22

Well my guild found a use fo Auspicious Incantation. In Alliance Battles, you can do a Smiter Monk. Arcane Echo, Balth's Aura, Auspicious Incantation, Balth's Aura (and regain 45 Energy), then Balth's Aura again. It'll rip through those pesky minions.

Elaine Donnerbalken · Mar 29, 2006, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Arcane Languor: could be good in an exhaustion-theme group build. You know, theres a ranger spirit doubling exhaustion. And serpents quickness, meaning you can maintain arcane languor 2 thirds of the time. Plus exhaustion reaches into the negative energy zone, meaning its a better energy drain.

Dragannia · Mar 30, 2006, 12:16 AM // 00:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valkyries

Because the Warrior will loose all Adrienline if they cast blackout.

Casting Blackout ON a Warrior is a good thing. Casting Blackout AS a Warrior doesn't make a ton of sense to me. You are then completely limited to swings of your weapon. Why not leave Blackout to the Mesmers who are already targetting the Monk and smashing them to the ground?? It could be better used elsewhere.

If you think about it, it's a non-issue. Using a stance like Battle-rage would only take skills like two more hits to charge, and six seconds of Monk shutdown is worth it IMO.

Keilious Ahruhk · Mar 30, 2006, 12:25 AM // 00:25

Yup, he's right, the only way to stop a good monk (Ah... Well in my party config) is through blackout or KD.
And KD is now countered by Ward of Stability.

byteme! · Mar 30, 2006, 12:37 AM // 00:37

NEW EXTREMELY FAST AND POWERFUL MESMER 55 BUILD

1- IW
2- IoR (images of remorse)
3- Any skill is a good skill here
4- Prot Spirit
5- Healing Breeze
6- Balthazar's Spirit
7- Mending
8- Essense Bond (optional....use anything you want here)

20% enchant on a axe or sword

IW and IoR are just perfect for each other in a 55 build IMO since they are both "Illusion based". Imagine the dmg one can do with IW and IoR with 16 points in Illusion Magic. OMFG!

PS. I'm glad I didn't delete my Mesmer. FTW! xD

Inspirational Muse · Mar 30, 2006, 06:24 AM // 06:24

The very first skill I bought during the factions event was Lyssa's Aura. I knew I had to have it

I thought it looked amazing, and indeed, it is. I also tried Stolen Speed. Nice skill for fast cast spikers. You will suprise the hell and scare anyone you attack at the same time with using that skill.

I can foresee many new annoying mesmer builds (and I love it

). DOT builds....*shudders*. now the mesmer can contend with necro in terms of DOTs. especially with mantra of persistance. I can also foresee that in response to this, lots of the new hex-removal spells will be utilized.

I can't wait

LightningHell · Mar 30, 2006, 08:39 AM // 08:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragannia

If you think about it, it's a non-issue. Using a stance like Battle-rage would only take skills like two more hits to charge, and six seconds of Monk shutdown is worth it IMO.

Uh...
No, I don't think so.

Your job in PvP is to deal damage, and if your skillbar is blacked out, how do you exactly deal damage?

Of course, your damage is still comparable to the Elementalist, but then that's ANet's problem.

Aran · Mar 30, 2006, 09:27 AM // 09:27

I would have replied earlier if I wasn't busy deciding if you were just a plain fool or simply misguided.

The floppery of "Your job in PvP is to deal damage, and if your skillbar is blacked out, how do you exactly deal damage?" is almost laughable. However, as to not be accused of flaming for the sake of it, I'll back my opinion up - which you thankfully did, in spite of your moot arguments.

A warrior, as can be seen by the validation of skills such as primal rage, can easily deal his share of damage through just critical hits. Blackout may well drain your adrenaline and disable your skills, however, at 16 axe mastery you are still dealing along the lines of "63, 20, 18, 63, 63" within those 5~6 seconds of blackout (using the 12/10/8 -> 16/11/8 configuration with a 5 second blackout and a 16 second battle rage).

After those 5 seconds (aside from the fact that within that time your team, if organised properly, can easily deal the monks health in damage - such as with the phantom-pain, surge elementalist build) you can renew battle rage in 2 hits (2.66 seconds), do whatever else you wish then re-enter blackout at the 7 second mark after its duration has ended (if you wait another 1~2 seconds you can squeeze in a dismember, axe rake to add to battle rage and maintain touch distance for its renewal).

The point of a team, may I remind you - and inform anyone who may believe otherwise - is to be integrated. It does not fall upon any one member of a team to purely deal damage.

LightningHell · Mar 30, 2006, 09:53 AM // 09:53

My apologies. I thought you said you were spamming it, nor did I notice this was the "New Mesmer Skills" thread. However, I do have a few points to make.

I base all judgement on 1-Warrior teams. The other teammates assist the Warrior on dealing the damage, but the bulk of it is done by the Warrior.

Quote:

Battle Rage

I don't see any Warriors running this, do I? I believe this will become even less attractive with Factions coming up. The only reason I would run Battle Rage on a Warrior, or on anything, in that case, is on a Sword warrior if I only have Prophecies. If you run it on an Axe warrior, you lose out on Eviscerate, for example. If you run it on a Hammer warrior, you lose out on Devastating Hammer and Backbreaker, both of them damage-adding, knockdown, and definitely a first-pick for Hammer wars. And Sword warriors also have a favored elite: Charge. Basically, if you use Battle Rage, you lose the capability on effective spikes, but have an overall higher DPS. Which is not a bad thing, but the ability to spike is quite essential.

Of course, the whole:

Quote:

After those 5 seconds (aside from the fact that within that time your team, if organised properly, can easily deal the monks health in damage - such as with the phantom-pain, surge elementalist build) you can renew battle rage in 2 hits (2.66 seconds), do whatever else you wish then re-enter blackout at the 7 second mark after its duration has ended (if you wait another 1~2 seconds you can squeeze in a dismember, axe rake to add to battle range and maintain touch distance for its renewal).

is true, but:

1) I don't think a Blacked Monk can survive a long time, if, as Dragannia posted above. However, unless you are trying to kill the Monk, this point is moot. I think he is, so this leads to a second point. You're wasting one skill slot on killing 1/4 of the opponent, something I don't think is worthwhile. But this is just personal opinion, so I'll just accept what you're saying.

2) Phantom Pain is needless if you have a capable Warrior. A Warrior without the ability to Deep Wound is,

Quote:

criminal

.

3) Surging is mainly Mesmer. Also, I believe you mean the 2-surge-2-elly team, which is why you said Surging Elementalist. However, two Surge Mesmers' spikish damage cannot exactly compare to the DoT + Ocassional spike the Warrior provides. They are different media for damaging the opponent.

The Warrior still provides enough damage alone with his/her attacks to compare with the Elementalist, who was supposed to be famed for her damage from her spells. I think it wis "Why Nuking Sucks" by Ensign that discusses the current Warrior-Elementalist damage discrepancy.

Also, you have something wrong there. The usual capable Warrior brings a IAS boost, such as Frenzy. So instead of 2.66, it would be 1.95 seconds. However, doesn't Battle Rage need 4 Adrenaline? (Oh yeah, you already have Battle Rage on...)

Of course, I ran a BiP Warrior for jokes once, but that was a joke. A joke, I tell you.

I'm glad we agree on the last point.

Monkus · Mar 30, 2006, 10:25 AM // 10:25

In my opinion, Blackout Warriors are very useful for killing Monks, as I know first hand because of all tha angry whispers I get saying that i'm an annoying dickhead.

It all depends on what skills you use and how you use them.

For example you slow them down with ethreal burden or imagined burden than you keep them preoccupied by blackouting them and doing damage, while the rest of your handsome team wipes out their team.

So all this talk about them being pointless is really a moot point.

Aran · Mar 30, 2006, 10:27 AM // 10:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

I base all judgement on 1-Warrior teams. The other teammates assist the Warrior on dealing the damage, but the bulk of it is done by the Warrior.

(a quote)

I don't see any Warriors running this, do I? I believe this will become even less attractive with Factions coming up. The only reason I would run Battle Rage on a Warrior, or on anything, in that case, is on a Sword warrior if I only have Prophecies. If you run it on an Axe warrior, you lose out on Eviscerate, for example. If you run it on a Hammer warrior, you lose out on Devastating Hammer and Backbreaker, both of them damage-adding, knockdown, and definitely a first-pick for Hammer wars. And Sword warriors also have a favored elite: Charge. Basically, if you use Battle Rage, you lose the capability on effective spikes, but have an overall higher DPS. Which is not a bad thing, but the ability to spike is quite essential.

You underestimate battle rage. Of course, you do have valid points in the area of hammer warriors - they would much rather something else, as they require an attack speed boost of some sort for the most part.

However, for the sword and axe warrior in pvp, one must realise that a monk is forever moving and any conditions you stack upon them (such as sever-gash or dismem-rake combos) may be used against you in the form of a simple mend ailment + boon. Hence, the most effective way to kill a monk if you are a warrior is to not concentrate upon dealing damage at standstill, or at particular moments, but pressuring the monk by outputting continual damage.

Stances such as battle rage and rush are by far and away the most useful for a warrior, and note they may be used quite freely in alternation with other stances (although battlerage less so than rush). Running 25% faster as these stances grant may not appear to be all that fantastic to some, but then one realises that this (as apparently accentuated by a-net's movement-melee formulas) equals effectively a 3x multiplier upon how many hits one lands on a moving target - not to mention that they are not only free, but they may be activated at all times. This results in more adrenaline gained and more damage dealt over time.

In reference to other elites, one must assess the strategy of the team. If the warriors are indeed the only things which inflict significant damage then one may be able to attest to the use of elites such as eviscerate. However, this is only because battle-rage ends if you use a non-attack skill (thus disallowing the warrior from using skills such as gale).

Battlerage gives you a x2 multiplier on all adrenaline gained from attacks - thus making executioners strike 4 hits to charge, and dismember/rake even less so (if you're taking damage, equivalent otherwise). This translates to a greater damage-over-time output, as reflected by the player using a speed increasing stance in battle. If one chooses to stand in one place and attack (such as with flurry or frenzy), their play style obviously revolves around on-the-spot output, and not actual damage overall - especially since due to the movement of monks and other soft targets, this damage is significantly decreased. These players would obviously prefer an eviscerate-type skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Of course, the whole (a quote) is true, but:

1) I don't think a Blacked Monk can survive a long time, if, as Dragannia posted above. However, unless you are trying to kill the Monk, this point is moot. I think he is, so this leads to a second point. You're wasting one skill slot on killing 1/4 of the opponent, something I don't think is worthwhile. But this is just personal opinion, so I'll just accept what you're saying.

2) Phantom Pain is needless if you have a capable Warrior. A Warrior without the ability to Deep Wound is,

3) Surging is mainly Mesmer. Also, I believe you mean the 2-surge-2-elly team, which is why you said Surging Elementalist. However, two Surge Mesmers' spikish damage cannot exactly compare to the DoT + Occasional spike the Warrior provides. They are different media for damaging the opponent.

1) needless to say, we're talking about an 12 second monk kill here. A team given 12 seconds to formulate a battle strategy given an opponent, process targets, then initiate will be disrupted by the death of their monk in such a short period (an example being the obby flame build when used properly in Team Arenas) - killing a monk is not just killing 1/4 players, it is killing their healing and their moral (player wise, not death penalty wise).

2 & 3) the phantom pain surge elem build is simple and not quite what you would expect. It involves the following skill combo: Phantom pain, lightning surge, lightning orb, shatter delusions, lightning strike - doing 500 damage in the space of about 3 seconds with a 4 second leadup.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

The Warrior still provides enough damage alone with his/her attacks to compare with the Elementalist, who was supposed to be famed for her damage from her spells. I think it wis "Why Nuking Sucks" by Ensign that discusses the current Warrior-Elementalist damage discrepancy.

Also, you have something wrong there. The usual capable Warrior brings a IAS boost, such as Frenzy. So instead of 2.66, it would be 1.95 seconds. However, doesn't Battle Rage need 4 Adrenaline? (Oh yeah, you already have Battle Rage on...)

The warrior-elementalist debate is more along the lines of what can deal damage in what time period, a warrior specialises in DOT, whereas an elementalists specialises in spike. These are completely differing things – however eviscerate may be said to be a spike of sorts.

In general, this is but one warrior in a team of four – you may wish to have another employing a dissimilar strategy, but from personal experience, and not simply opinion, the rage/rush-er will always prove to deal more damage than any other type of sword/axe warrior.

And please, do not forget about rangers – warriors are not the only things which can deal significant damage over time.