Curse

Avarre · Apr 02, 2006, 05:39 AM // 05:39

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And if Mes is throwing occasional hexes their way, two or three hexes won't be enough to shut them down, especially when the Mesmer's Necro buddies are disabling other melee characters.

On the contrary, if the necro is disabling melee characters, two or three hexes will screw the assassin over quite badly. A diversion tossed into their attack string means suddenly they have 1 less skill, and if you knock out a sequence skill, you can remove a huge portion of their capabilities.

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I agree flag running will be a major strength of Assassins, but I wouldn't expect them to go after Monks and Rits primarily. They can do assassination almost anywhere. If they see an opening, regardless of where it is, regardless of the character (except Warrior and to a lesser extent, Ranger), they'll take it...including any CasterHate Mesmers inching forward. ~_^

Assassins will take any chance they have... but so does every other class in the game. If you're playing the ideal situation, it can work both ways. The assassin warps in, gets blinded by a support ele standing in a ward vs melee, then torn down by a warrior adren spike.

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And Warriors and Rangers have an easier interrupt style? Apart from HamWar KD (which Ward of Stability will have a dramatic effect upon) and the occasional Choking Gas interrupt (or Broadhead Arrow in Factions), Warriors and Rangers pose less of a threat to Mesmers than Assassins, especially when you're discounting Assassin CasterHate on the grounds of the Mesmer cast rate and the attacker's interrupt styles.

Hrm, whats more dangerous. An assassin's distracting attack (which isn't instant) or things like punishing shot, savage shot, and your own mentioned Broad Head Arrow. Assassins also have to chain up for certain interrupts, making them atrocious to use in actual conflict where you might need to interrupt something immediately.

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So why would a Mesmer spec into an Inept build? Why would they spec into WarHate at all? Some of the "best" counters to Assassins in this forum have been relying on Mesmer Illusion. It makes little to no sense

Diversion + distortion is enough to cripple an assassin, and it's part of a standard domination build often. I believe I mentioned that back near page 1 or 2.

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If you can't work-in stance removal, either with your Mesmer's secondary or another team-mate, you are completely screwed in certain situations. ~_^

Er... why? If that was true, wouldn't we all be shaking in our boots from warriors that run glad's def?

Siren · Apr 02, 2006, 05:53 AM // 05:53

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Originally Posted by Avarre

On the contrary, if the necro is disabling melee characters, two or three hexes will screw the assassin over quite badly. A diversion tossed into their attack string means suddenly they have 1 less skill, and if you knock out a sequence skill, you can remove a huge portion of their capabilities.

They either wait out 6 seconds, which isn't terribly long, or they go right through their chain, get their target under 50% health (which isn't hard at all), then use Moebius Strike.

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Assassins will take any chance they have... but so does every other class in the game. If you're playing the ideal situation, it can work both ways. The assassin warps in, gets blinded by a support ele standing in a ward vs melee, then torn down by a warrior adren spike.

But warping into a situation like that isn't playing intelligently, and the smart Assassins won't warp like that.

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Hrm, whats more dangerous. An assassin's distracting attack (which isn't instant) or things like punishing shot, savage shot, and your own mentioned Broad Head Arrow. Assassins also have to chain up for certain interrupts, making them atrocious to use in actual conflict where you might need to interrupt something immediately.

There are Assassin interrupts that both don't depend on previous skills, and also set-up for really nasty interrupt chains, including debilitating condition infliction. So choosing between interrupting a Mesmer with either a Ranger (who would need to take into account flight time, distance, etc) or an Assassin (who's doing everything in melee range, and who can attack much faster than the Ranger)...? The choice would be obvious.

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Diversion + distortion is enough to cripple an assassin, and it's part of a standard domination build often. I believe I mentioned that back near page 1 or 2.

Diversion can be handled by waiting out the 6 seconds, or Moebius Strike.

Distortion...a well-played Assassin won't care about Distortion. ~_^

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Er... why? If that was true, wouldn't we all be shaking in our boots from warriors that run glad's def?

Why would you be worried about Glad's Defense in the first place? It does absolutely nothing to impede your own personal Mesmer success. That's not the case with Assassin skills.

Hella Good · Apr 02, 2006, 05:57 AM // 05:57

Ok... for the last time: Assassins aren't anything Mesmers are going to sweat about. If they begin to annoy people enuf, Mesmers will just make room for Empathy or Shacks, and that's going to be GG rite there. Period.

As for the Warrior's Bane builds: you started talking 8v8 all of a sudden. I didn't know that GvG/HoH was what we were discussing... As you might be aware, there is other game formats. In RA/TA I play almost exclusively Warriors Bane with Inepti/Clumsi (or Inepti/IoR/Conjure). In 8v8 obviously people don't run Inepti because the spike damage gets healed fast and the Blindness gets mended. Plus generally Necros are handling any fighter classes.

Also, Illusion is quite common in PvP, mainly because of Migraine. I see no problem in picking a few skills from the Illusion line to help cope with Assas, again if the need arises. Clumsiness and IoR come to mind.

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Originally Posted by Avarre

A diversion tossed into their attack string means suddenly they have 1 less skill, and if you knock out a sequence skill, you can remove a huge portion of their capabilities.

QFT.

To sum it up: Diversion, Distortion, Shacks, Empathy, Ineptitude, Clumsiness, IoR- just a few of the non-e-denial skills that will be successful in handling Assassins.

I have made my point clear: I don't care about Assas, because they pose no visible threat to me. If I need to, I'll make room for one-two skills to help kill em fast. Not like anyone is going to sweat a low armor, 30 nrg, ninja prep-cook.

Avarre · Apr 02, 2006, 05:59 AM // 05:59

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But warping into a situation like that isn't playing intelligently, and the smart Assassins won't warp like that.

And the smart counterteam will take the fight to them as well. You can't assume the assassin is smart when the rest aren't.

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They either wait out 6 seconds, which isn't terribly long, or they go right through their chain, get their target under 50% health (which isn't hard at all), then use Moebius Strike.

6 seconds IS a long time to be useless if you're low AL in the middle of the enemy team, a good mesmer will diversion them while they're using skills not giving them time to cancel, and there are glyph/recovery builds that can keep diversion up permanently.

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get their target under 50% health (which isn't hard at all), then use Moebius Strike.

And where are the monks? Asleep? Guardian would play hell with the attacks, and 1 heal would mess up the final attack.

Siren · Apr 02, 2006, 06:21 AM // 06:21

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Originally Posted by Avarre

And the smart counterteam will take the fight to them as well. You can't assume the assassin is smart when the rest aren't.

The "rest" being other players of any professions, I'd imagine? There are going to be completely stupid Assassin players, sure. Just like there are completely stupid Eles today. Or completely stupid Monks, or Mesmers, or Rangers, you get the idea. But that doesn't automatically mean that all counters to those profession morons will translate to the skilled players. And yes. I'd expect the smart counterteam to take the fight to that Assassin. All the more reason for the Assassin to pay attention.

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6 seconds IS a long time to be useless if you're low AL in the middle of the enemy team, a good mesmer will diversion them while they're using skills not giving them time to cancel, and there are glyph/recovery builds that can keep diversion up permanently.

If the Mesmer can Divert the third skill in the attack chain a milli-second before the Assassin uses it so the Assassin can't cancel it out, I'll give them a cookie. ^_^ If the Mesmer Diverts the lead attack, wouldn't it be a sound strategy to bring a second, cheaper lead in anticipation?

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And where are the monks? Asleep? Guardian would play hell with the attacks, and 1 heal would mess up the final attack.

You assume Guardian will screw over a good Assassin. Sometimes it might, but if the Assassin knows what they're doing...Guardian will mean the same thing as Distortion: the enemies don't know what Assassins are packing. Guardian won't affect Assassins in the same way it affects Warriors. Very few evasion/block stances/enchants will, actually.

Hella, I'm fully aware that RA/TA exists. I'm fully aware of Migraine builds that have space for some WarHate Illusion hexes. But your counters aren't that impressive. Diversion, eh. Distortion...hehe. Shacks has potential, but it suffers from the same Assassin counters as Distortion. Empathy...hehe. Inept is meh, so is Clumsiness. IoR, maybe, but even then, they still have things to mitigate it.

SnipiousMax · Apr 02, 2006, 07:12 AM // 07:12

The secret to playing an assassin, will be much like the secret to playing Mesmer or Ranger, timing. No one among us is going to spend time babysitting the assassin or charging after the assassin, we'll be doing or normal routines in PvP. The power of the assassin is capitalizing on a mistake or a moment of weakness. Sure 1 on 1 an assassin might not be that much of a threat but no one can say that they will be that way in the heat of battle. We don't know how they will synergize with other builds/profesions. It could very well be that they will be a fragile glorified warrior, and the same tricks will work on them. But they may suprise us. After all they only need a few seconds to roll through their combos, and they can snatch themselves out of danger when things go south. I think they'll be a class to watch, and they won't be so easily countered as we think. I'm a little curious about the skill Scorpian Wire (I think that's the name). That would be really simple to trick to start off a nasty combo where you won't be able to get in a spell. They'd travel 100' in the blink of an eye, and you get KD'd. The combo that would follow would kill you without an infuse. There are many many assassin skills that cannot be evaded so distortion will not be effective against them. They also have a nasty nasty interrupt that causes daze. They'd only have to interrupt your first spell, everything else would be cake. I think Assassin's will be nasty in their own right.

LightningHell · Apr 02, 2006, 10:14 AM // 10:14

You are really mistaken if you think Ineptitude is "Meh".

Kai Nui · Apr 02, 2006, 02:32 PM // 14:32

Clumsiness, Ineptitude, Distortion, Empathy, Sympathetic Visage, among many other skills are great to counter assassins. I owned many assassins actually in the event recently because of those skills.

Francis Demeules · Apr 02, 2006, 03:21 PM // 15:21

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Originally Posted by Siren

If the Mesmer can Divert the third skill in the attack chain a milli-second before the Assassin uses it so the Assassin can't cancel it out, I'll give them a cookie. ^_^

/Raise hand

Easy to Divert assassin skills, trust me. They're already expose their skills in front of you. Its looks like playing cards but your opponent shows at you what he has in hands.

Me/N is easy to play to counter Assassins...... Not only by the little plague touch.

Hella Good · Apr 02, 2006, 04:53 PM // 16:53

With such ridiculous armor stats, they will most likely fall to a 2ndary prof use in large teams (mainly by Eles and Rangers). They can warp around all they want, if you think Assassins need just a few seconds to deliver their "deadly" comboes, well, lemme tell you, you need the same time to send the little punks back to their monks crying (all the while just heal-negating the damage they dealt) or (more likely) fix them a personal meeting with Grenth himself.

Not only does their armor suck but it sucks BIG TIME. Some of the Mesmer Factions armor is better than Assassin armor... their armor is so conditional, it's sad.

Siren · Apr 02, 2006, 11:46 PM // 23:46

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Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

The secret to playing an assassin, will be much like the secret to playing Mesmer or Ranger, timing. No one among us is going to spend time babysitting the assassin or charging after the assassin, we'll be doing our normal routines in PvP. The power of the assassin is capitalizing on a mistake or a moment of weakness. Sure 1 on 1 an assassin might not be that much of a threat but no one can say that they will be that way in the heat of battle. We don't know how they will synergize with other builds/profesions. It could very well be that they will be a fragile glorified warrior, and the same tricks will work on them. But they may suprise us. After all they only need a few seconds to roll through their combos, and they can snatch themselves out of danger when things go south. I think they'll be a class to watch, and they won't be so easily countered as we think. I'm a little curious about the skill Scorpian Wire (I think that's the name). That would be really simple to trick to start off a nasty combo where you won't be able to get in a spell. They'd travel 100' in the blink of an eye, and you get KD'd. The combo that would follow would kill you without an infuse. There are many many assassin skills that cannot be evaded so distortion will not be effective against them. They also have a nasty nasty interrupt that causes daze. They'd only have to interrupt your first spell, everything else would be cake. I think Assassin's will be nasty in their own right.

Very well said, Max. Thank you. Scorpion Wire, yes. It will have its uses.

And yes. Fast Casting doesn't matter when the first two attacks can break through any evasion techniques, then make the caster's casting life a living hell. ^_^

Kai and Lightning, I've run the Inept Illusion builds, especially after the Inept buff. It won't be as devastating as you think, especially against good Assassins. Same goes for Clumsiness, Empathy, Symp.Vis, etc. If you think Distortion will work, you're in for a surprise, mates.

Mesmers and the counters/philosophies they use will have to change come Factions.

Ninetail Trickster · Apr 03, 2006, 02:08 AM // 02:08

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Originally Posted by Francis Demeules

1) Equips bow? What do you think? IW with bow? Nah!
2) Why Drain Enchantment, Shatter it because they heal after Shadow Refuge. If they have that elite Shadow step under this enchantment is a waste. Shadow Step, strip enchantment and go away!

Heh. I'm aware that IW doesn't work with a bow. That's why they think 'easy target'.... Whatsa' mesmer gonna' do with a bow? XD
2. Drain BECAUSE they heal after Shadow Refuge, and with any luck the energy'll let you counter that.

More currently relevant:
Scorpion Wire made me grin when I heard about it. It'll finally put those ragerunners in their place...

Runner: HAW HAW, I USED CRIPPLING ANGUISH ON YOUUUUU
A/N: -scorpion wire- -waits-
Runner: -breaks the range barrier-
A/N: -shadowstep- -plague touch-
Runner: ZOMG
A/N: -sssuuuuuuper commmmmmmbooooooo......[/KillerInstinct]-

-shrug-
I'm surprised this thread is still alive... wish I had time to go through and read it all. Looks like people are bringing up awesome ideas.

Hella Good · Apr 03, 2006, 02:10 AM // 02:10

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Originally Posted by Siren

Very well said, Max. Thank you. Scorpion Wire, yes. It will have its uses.

And yes. Fast Casting doesn't matter when the first two attacks can break through any evasion techniques, then make the caster's casting life a living hell. ^_^

Kai and Lightning, I've run the Inept Illusion builds, especially after the Inept buff. It won't be as devastating as you think, especially against good Assassins. Same goes for Clumsiness, Empathy, Symp.Vis, etc. If you think Distortion will work, you're in for a surprise, mates.

Mesmers and the counters/philosophies they use will have to change come Factions.

You really believe in the "terrifying power" of the Assassins, don't you? You are convinced that you will be allowed and I mean allowed to do your dance while the rest of the world sits, and watches, and claps... I mean really... you are in for a cold shower.

You expect Mesmers to shiver and sweat just because you have several non-evasion skills... well you need to wake up and smell the coffee. Warriors have had non-evade, non-block skills for far longer and mind you in higher number than Assassins. Still I don't see a single Mesmer losing his or her mind over a Warrior...

As for your precious Scorpion Wire... don't make me laugh... by the time you get in range to activate it, your nrg will be gone or you will be hexed beyound recognition. That or you will be interrupted, your hex removed, or simply destroyed using any other means.

The only Assassin skills that can cause any notable damage are Temple and Moebius Strike. I clearly doubt you will be able to do your skill sequence to get to use those and, mind you, even if you do, nothing you do cannot be easily handled by the Monk on the team, which, doh!, you are not targeting because you are busying yourself with a Mesmer.

I plan on taking one of the following depending on my build to help handle Assassins: Shacks, Empathy, or IoR. Other than that I will leave it to the team Necro or whoever is doing the Warriors Bane.

Again, you blatant belief that Assassins are these godly things send from Heaven to bring justice to the Mesmer race is ridiculous. I would have at least felt some level of difficulty fighting Assassins during the last two events, if any of what you are bragging about had even the slighest support. On the contrary, I handled all with ease...

At this point, I would suggest you making a thread called "Oh heck. Mesmers (Assassin thread)" in the Assassin forum to try to solidify your optimistic persuasions.

LightningHell · Apr 03, 2006, 02:54 AM // 02:54

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Originally Posted by Hella Good

-snip-

*sigh*

Well, Assassins sound 1337.

merciless · Apr 03, 2006, 03:01 AM // 03:01

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Originally Posted by Hella Good

You really believe in the "terrifying power" of the Assassins, don't you? You are convinced that you will be allowed and I mean allowed to do your dance while the rest of the world sits, and watches, and claps... I mean really... you are in for a cold shower.

You expect Mesmers to shiver and sweat just because you have several non-evasion skills... well you need to wake up and smell the coffee. Warriors have had non-evade, non-block skills for far longer and mind you in higher number than Assassins. Still I don't see a single Mesmer losing his or her mind over a Warrior...

As for your precious Scorpion Wire... don't make me laugh... by the time you get in range to activate it, your nrg will be gone or you will be hexed beyound recognition. That or you will be interrupted, your hex removed, or simply destroyed using any other means.

The only Assassin skills that can cause any notable damage are Temple and Moebius Strike. I clearly doubt you will be able to do your skill sequence to get to use those and, mind you, even if you do, nothing you do cannot be easily handled by the Monk on the team, which, doh!, you are not targeting because you are busying yourself with a Mesmer.

I plan on taking one of the following depending on my build to help handle Assassins: Shacks, Empathy, or IoR. Other than that I will leave it to the team Necro or whoever is doing the Warriors Bane.

Again, you blatant belief that Assassins are these godly things send from Heaven to bring justice to the Mesmer race is ridiculous. I would have at least felt some level of difficulty fighting Assassins during the last two events, if any of what you are bragging about had even the slighest support. On the contrary, I handled all with ease...

At this point, I would suggest you making a thread called "Oh heck. Mesmers (Assassin thread)" in the Assassin forum to try to solidify your optimistic persuasions.

Cry more

Siren · Apr 03, 2006, 03:21 AM // 03:21

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Originally Posted by Hella Good

You are convinced that you will be allowed and I mean allowed to do your dance while the rest of the world sits, and watches, and claps... I mean really... you are in for a cold shower.

Point to where I've said (or implied) anything of the sort and I'll concede the point. As far as I can recall, however, my point is and has always been that Mesmers should not underestimate Assassins, and certainly should not shrug them off as mere second-rate Warriors. Check your aggression. And don't try to play spin-doctor, lol.

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You expect Mesmers to shiver and sweat just because you have several non-evasion skills... well you need to wake up and smell the coffee. Warriors have had non-evade, non-block skills for far longer and mind you in higher number than Assassins. Still I don't see a single Mesmer losing his or her mind over a Warrior...

Am I to doubt Assassin skills simply because various Warrior anti-evasion skills are less than spectacular? I count no more than five anti-evasion skills in Warrior. And out of those five, only three are actual anti-evasion. I promise you that Assassins easily have more potent and numerous anti-evasion skills. Try playing Assassin if you don't believe me. Look at their skill synergy. They're far more a debuffer class than you're giving them credit for.

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As for your precious Scorpion Wire... don't make me laugh... by the time you get in range to activate it, your nrg will be gone or you will be hexed beyound recognition. That or you will be interrupted, your hex removed, or simply destroyed using any other means.

Am I putting Scorpion Wire up on some pedestal? Implying it's God-like? Am I saying anything of the sort?

No, I am not. I said it will have its uses. And it will have its uses. Check your aggression, mate. It's completely unnecessary here.

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The only Assassin skills that can cause any notable damage are Temple and Moebius Strike. I clearly doubt you will be able to do your skill sequence to get to use those and, mind you, even if you do, nothing you do cannot be easily handled by the Monk on the team, which, doh!, you are not targeting because you are busying yourself with a Mesmer.

If you honestly believe that Temple and Moebius Strike are the only notable damage skills in the Assassin skillset, you really do need to read-up on Assassins, mate.

What's even more interesting (and telling) regarding your assessment of Assassin skill sets is your implication that Temple and Moebius Strike are only accessible after one does the skill sequence. Anyone minimally versed in Assassin build design would never, ever place Temple and Moebius in the same sentence, in the context you're using. Assassin players (and those open to what Assassins offer) know what I'm getting at here.

Also, nowhere in this thread have I been talking about targeting Mesmers above any other professions. But if the opportunity presents itself, and if the situation calls for it, the Assassin should certainly knock out the Mesmer who is disrupting a Monk. In 8v8, there's considerably more versatility and fluidity in team combat. Assassins won't always have to target Monks or Ritualists, especially if the team has another CasterHate build. Again, check your aggression, please. I'd appreciate some more comprehension and less spin-doctoring.

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I plan on taking one of the following depending on my build to help handle Assassins: Shacks, Empathy, or IoR. Other than that I will leave it to the team Necro or whoever is doing the Warriors Bane.

Go right ahead. Good Assassins won't care.

And by "Warrior's Bane," I hope you aren't referring to the pre-built N/Me template.

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Again, you blatant belief that Assassins are these godly things send from Heaven to bring justice to the Mesmer race is ridiculous.

Again, I'd suggest you not try to play spin-doctor here. ^_^

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I would have at least felt some level of difficulty fighting Assassins during the last two events, if any of what you are bragging about had even the slighest support. On the contrary, I handled all with ease...

A span of 48 hours is hardly enough time to make broad, sweeping generalizations like "Assassins will be of no concern to me because I handled all of them with ease over a weekend." If you think Assassins will be complete pushovers, you'll get to prove it 3-6 months after retail/introduction, because that's generally the timeframe for most players to start developing more advanced builds and figuring out hidden strengths of the new professions.

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At this point, I would suggest you making a thread called "Oh heck. Mesmers (Assassin thread)" in the Assassin forum to try to solidify your optimistic persuasions.

My optimistic persuasions are solidified already because I'm not basing my assessment of Assassins on two weekends filled with generally mediocre performances from brand-spanking-new Assassin players and a general refusal to explore the possibilities and options of Assassin skills.

I don't believe for a second you've had any actual experience with Assassins at all, apart from "pwning" novices during weekend previews.

You barely know the skills...that much is clear when you say that Warriors have more anti-evasion skills...not to mention when you list Temple and Moebius Strike has the "notable damage" dealers from Assassin.

You outright trash Scorpion Wire yet clearly have no idea how it will be useful, just like you apparently have no idea how useful Critical Strike, Iron Palm, or Signet of Malice will be, because if you did, you wouldn't be trying to pull this "Assassins only have three worthwhile skills" crap.

LightningHell · Apr 03, 2006, 04:32 AM // 04:32

GW is a team game. Even so, if you try 1v1 Mesmer vs Assassin (w/out secondary), I can safely bet my money on the Mesmer.

SnipiousMax · Apr 03, 2006, 04:51 AM // 04:51

Another point that should be brought up, as it's been ignored to this point.

I keep hearing that (and even said) that Assassins will be weak without energy. But honestly in a team battle, why would you pick an assassin over a monk or another mesmer to start your usual E.Denial? If someone started casting burn/surge/weariness on a warrior, when there were other targets around, I would say it was an inexperienced Mesmer.

I think it would be important to think outside the 1 on 1 box, and start putting Assassins in a living and breathing team. So a couple of questions I got....

How high a priority target will an assassin be? After Monks and Mesmers? Just before warrior?

Will you really be able to babysit an assassin, that is going to be hard to keep up with to begin with, while everything else is going on?

I agree, that should the mesmer devote his entire attention to assassin duty, then the assassin won't be much of a threat...Only on a one on one basis. But then again, if that assassin plays perfectly, and the mesmer plays average standard mesmerism...I think they will be suprised how quickly the tide changes.

And slightly (by slightly I mean alot) off subject... Avarre, your newest Avatar is freaking cool. What did you use to create it?

Hella Good · Apr 03, 2006, 05:10 AM // 05:10

I think it's fair to say that the two won't be facing each other much. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Assas aren't incorporated as primaries in 8v8 builds at all but rather are used as secondaries. Could be wrong of course.

As was already said:

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Originally Posted by Avarre

Mesmers aren't going to specifically spec to kill assassins in 8v8, besides the occasional shackles or diversion tossed on them perhaps.

I also agree 100% to this:

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Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

I agree, that should the mesmer devote his entire attention to assassin duty, then the assassin won't be much of a threat...Only on a one on one basis. But then again, if that assassin plays perfectly, and the mesmer plays average standard mesmerism...I think they will be suprised how quickly the tide changes.

zoozoc · Apr 03, 2006, 05:16 AM // 05:16

wow the way everyone makes mesmers anti-everything, im suprised a team of 8 mesmers cant pwn any other team, i mean they are anti-everything.

Anyways, assasins can pretty much be shut down in better ways then warriors, of course left alone they can wreck havoc (of course so can warriors, and much better dps too). The ways that dont generally work on warriors are A. Kill them, much lower armor then warriors B. Energy denial C. Stop 1 of their chains in their chain of attacks.