Curse

Carinae · Mar 16, 2006, 12:01 AM // 00:01

Wow, no wonder we have so many misguided MM's everywhere. Check out Guildwiki's evil MM tips!

I added the top paragraph about N/Mo. It wasn't there before now.

I just couldn't leave those tips there without an alternative.

I fully welcome anyone's positive additions/improvements to the tips section.

http://www.guildwiki.org/wiki/Minion

Fungus Amongus · Mar 16, 2006, 12:26 AM // 00:26

You typically are correct with your advice about minionmastering. I agree 100% that Monk secondary is, without a doubt, the best choice for raising large armies in real battle situations.

Healing Spring from the Rangers' Wilderness Survival attribute probably could work better for healing more minions in one cast due to the fact that more minions could be lead into the Spring as opposed to the limited range of Heal Area. In reality, the fact that Healing Spring is so easily interrupted rules that option right off my skillbar.

The ability to reliably self heal with Heal Area is too much of a plus to overlook.

I do agree with the following statement:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guildwiki

When managing minions, bear in mind that degeneration grows with time so it is always better to replace a minion than it is to try and maintain an old one.

It costs less energy to create a new minion than to try to keep the dying ones alive. Not to mention, it's hard to maintain forward progress when you have to keep stopping to cast spells to keep dying minions alive.

As far as the statement made about Serpents Quickness? Well, why choose a sub-par secondary when collector's items and Greens grant, in my opinion, better recharge potential.

~Edit - Oh, and thanks, Carinae, for adding your expertise and knowledge to a site we all look to for information.

~Edit2 - Removed a comma.

~Edit3 - Added a " - " to Edit2. Boy I am picky.

kaldak · Mar 16, 2006, 01:00 AM // 01:00

yes, monk works, but would you please stop with it being the obvious superior answer?

serpent's quickness makes all recharges faster, not 20% of the time. have you tried it? especially now that bloodstained boots work, unless you're bringing all 3 animate spells you'll have downtime in a heavy battle waiting for them to recharge. AND you get to keep up verata's more of the time. how is that sub-par?

in any case you're right to add monk to the wiki (though calling heal area an advanced technique seems rather silly)

Fungus Amongus · Mar 16, 2006, 01:56 AM // 01:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaldak

how is that sub-par?

Because it requires a Ranger secondary. That is my opinion. I don't mean to state that Carinae or I am 100% correct, but I know that monk secondary works best for me. Perhaps it just suits my style of play better. Ranger is a viable secondary for a minionmaster, as other professions are. It's just that I find the Monk secondary to be most useful and practical.

Thanks for your input, kaldak, it helps us all enjoy the game more from its many diverse approaches.

Carinae · Mar 16, 2006, 02:18 AM // 02:18

My biggest gripe bout the Wiki info there was that N/E was the top suggestion, and N/Mo wasn't listed at all.

VS+GoR is THE very first combo starter necros think of....and it DOES work as advertised. No complaints there. But it has some very serious disadvantages that are not apparent initially. N/Mo and N/R mitigate those disadvantages quite well. THAT is why they are more advanced techniques.

I don't have a problem with N/R.

kaldak · Mar 16, 2006, 07:36 AM // 07:36

fair enough, sorry if my earlier comments seemed a bit nasty. i just seem to encounter alot of people who dont see any room for flexibility in a mm build whatsoever. nothing wrong with /mo working better than /r for you

dtopdawgie · Mar 17, 2006, 01:19 PM // 13:19

I don't usually post on here, but I think I will this time. It seems like everyone overcomplicates necros and MM's. I think whatever works for you, works for you. My necro has 3 secondaries, E / Me / Mo. I started with the E, then went to the Me, then went to the Mo. I switch back and forth sometimes. Mainly though, I leave it at Me. I can still raise extremly large armies with my Me secondary. (pplz are like, um, i can't get around his army, or "good God" gets said alot, haha)I was doing it so long that the heal area just wasn't doing it for me when i switched to monk. Also, other things to condiser are what happens when the corpses run out. We've all been there, and it sucks. Alternate damage dealing seems a necessity. That's why I prefer the N/Me. For arcane echo SS combos. Even at 10 curses, it's still not to shabby in cases where their are no corpses. If anyone would like to discuss builds, my IGNs are Mira Kerensky, Natasha Rathack, and Blade Wind Dragon.

Kidney Licker · Mar 17, 2006, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Out of curiosity, does anyone know where the idea that Heal Area increases degen in minions came from?

Normally I wouldn't care but I'm encountering more people who believe that now. I was in a SF farming group last night and as soon as they saw I was using Heal Area, two members go WTF?!, and after a brief argument (yes it does, no it doesn't) the two members of the party left, which was a first.

Where are they getting told about this, is it GuildWiki?

Stabber · Mar 17, 2006, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kidney Licker

Where are they getting told about this, is it GuildWiki?

Very unlikely. I don't see this myth in any of the major MM articles:

http://www.guildwiki.org/wiki/Genera..._mastery_guide
http://www.guildwiki.org/wiki/N/Me_Minion_Master
http://www.guildwiki.org/wiki/N/Mo_Minion_Meister
http://www.guildwiki.org/wiki/N/R_Minion_Master
http://www.guildwiki.org/wiki/N/E_Renewal_Minion_Master

I must also object to the general theme in this thread that GuildWiki is a source of misinformation. (A) It is a wiki, so it contains what the community contributes, (B) not every article in the wiki is of equal quality, and (C) many of us regulars spend day and night polishing and perfecting the information contained within. This is not to say that GuildWiki is infallible, but rather to appeal to you all to spend the five minutes it takes to correct any misinformation you see there. Complaining about wiki articles, especially on an entirely different site, is of no use to anyone.

bobrath · Mar 17, 2006, 05:25 PM // 17:25

I think the myth started because Heal Area was the first non necro spell used by most MMs out there for a while - before the nature of minion degen was really understood.

And once a myth gets legs, its hard to break. I guess that part of the reason I like Healing Spring - its new enough that folks don't go with the same old mythunderstanding.

Much like all the other classes, until you've played a MM (and not just one run!), you really wont' be able to get the nuances we deal with.

fiery · Mar 17, 2006, 05:27 PM // 17:27

I say monk is great with the heal area, and elemental is great for glyph of lesser energy. I wouldn't say it matters what your secondary is just that you had a surplus of bodies to use, and spamming blood of the master and veratas sacrifice.

Carinae · Mar 17, 2006, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stabber

I must also object to the general theme in this thread that GuildWiki is a source of misinformation. (A) It is a wiki, so it contains what the community contributes, (B) not every article in the wiki is of equal quality, and (C) many of us regulars spend day and night polishing and perfecting the information contained within. This is not to say that GuildWiki is infallible, but rather to appeal to you all to spend the five minutes it takes to correct any misinformation you see there. Complaining about wiki articles, especially on an entirely different site, is of no use to anyone.

Well, I started the thread, so this is really aimed at me. In this case, GuildWiki's information was incomplete to say the least. This is no fault of GuildWiki.

I immediately added a short contribution for N/Mo and posted here just to call attention to the I issue. It was, and still is, a good opportunity for someone to record some solid MM advice, especially for starter MMs. I could have added a great deal more information about Minion Mastering, especially for N/Mo, but I already get accused of drowning-out of other combinations and generally being a know-it-all smarty-pants N/Mo zealot.

I posted here in an effort to maybe get some members of the Necro community to make further contributions.

bobrath · Mar 17, 2006, 07:11 PM // 19:11

oh hush you... know-it-all smarty-pants N/Mo zealot!

Karlos · Mar 17, 2006, 08:05 PM // 20:05

You have to agree though that the title is mis-leading. You are booing the wiki for basically allowing different opinions other than your own to exist. It's like booing Wikipedia for saying that "some historians believe Alexander the Great was bisexual" simply because you don't believe in it. As an encyclopedic resource, it's the wikis duty to include all possible data AND opinions on a certain subject.

I would think a better title would have been "N/Mo's come to the defense of your minions!" or something.

Carinae · Mar 17, 2006, 08:35 PM // 20:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karlos

You have to agree though that the title is mis-leading. You are booing the wiki for basically allowing different opinions other than your own to exist.

The title of the thread is "Boo GuildWiki's MM Tips". That's not an attack on wiki, but on the tips contained therein. I did not remove the other tips, no matter what I feel about them. I just added a bit on N/Mo that wasn't there at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karlos

I would think a better title would have been "N/Mo's come to the defense of your minions!" or something.

Point made, and I agree.

Xeeron · Mar 17, 2006, 08:55 PM // 20:55

The whole tips section in the minion article is very new, so it was not yet finished, therefore uncomplete. Regrettable, but the only way to help that is someone putting more content into it. There is no hidden agenda of guildwiki to produce bad minion masters (and bad MMing has been around for longer than the tips 3 weeks of existance). Actually all of the MM build articles and the MM guide are being majorly rewritten right at the moment. So if you want better MMs, help us put better content in there =)

- Xeeron

Bel Ebih · Mar 20, 2006, 04:57 AM // 04:57

Yes, N/Mo with Heal Area is good, especialy early on in the game. But really, imo, N/E with Renewal and Lesser Energy is still better, so in no way are MM's who go this route 'misguided' as you say, and neither are the N/R's with SQ since that works very well also. Still, you're right, can't leave out the N/Mo's.

The_Janitor · Mar 20, 2006, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Heal Area is one of the best MM spells you can have. N/R and N/E is just not very good compared..

bobrath · Mar 20, 2006, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Heal Area: higher energy cost but instant heal in a smaller area
Healing Spring: lower energy cost with larger healing area but requires planning and casting time

HA is a great quick splash of healing, but you'll be digging into your mana pool pretty quickly.
HS can cover defen a bit more effectivly, but requires you to hang out in one spot. (oh and it doesn't heal enemies)

I've never personally run a N/E, but from my reading here in the forums through many ... extended .... discussions, it sounds as if they can optimize the casting delay and nrg management far better then a N/Mo.

There's no "perfect" MM build, but there are 3 very good ones out there. N/Mo, N/R, and N/E. Pick the one that you "understand" and enjoy playing and have fun being popular.

shadedcrusade · Mar 21, 2006, 01:32 AM // 01:32

I switched FROM N/Mo TO N/E and like it better. Granted, the downside to N/E is no good self heal. I'm running a budget Blood Renewal as my 7th slot right now and never use it. GoR'ed VS is quite nice. Plus, I can pump SR higher because I don't need OoB now (GoLE does same thing basically) and don't need points in Healing either for Heal Area. N/E I find in general has way better energy management, and I still want to try N/R. Yeah, Heal Area is nice, but it's not a battle use spell really because you take risk in healing enemies. So, if you are just using it out of battle anyway, why not just use BotM and let the monk heal you or just natural regen?

Just my 2 cents.

SC