Curse

Align · Mar 27, 2006, 09:11 PM // 21:11

My guildmate and I got into a little argument about which elite was more useful. Basically:
With Heal as One, you don't have to spread out so much(no need for WS and Troll Ungent)
With Ferocious Strike, you have practically infinite energy, thanks to Expertise

Feel free to prove me wrong.

Lady Lorwinia · Mar 27, 2006, 09:33 PM // 21:33

Both are useful for different things.

Bunny thumpers use ferocious strike for the energy. And for more damage.

I actually wouldn't bother with heal as one. But it can be a good skill for other builds I guess.

I just have many other skills that I like that are elites.

Jenosavel · Mar 27, 2006, 09:48 PM // 21:48

I think your argument for Heal As One is a rather weak one, since I don't think it has ever been a good idea for a Beastmaster to split off into WS for Troll Unguent. Of course, tons of people do it anyways and use it as a reason that Beastmastery sucks.

The way I see it, Beastmasters either go full Beast and Expertise only or they split into Beast, Expertise and Marks for a little extra umph from their bow attacks (benefitting from Tiger's Fury).

As a pet heal, Heal as One is so-so. It can't compare to the healing power of a spammed Comfort Animal in an emergency. For all other healing needs Predator's Pounce is usually plenty, especially since it frees up your Elite spot for Ferocious Strike which is such superb energy management.

What it does allow is for a beastmaster to finally have a decent self-heal (since Troll Unguent was never really an option in the first place). It gives you around the same health back as would Ether Feast (with appropriate attribute points behind it), but with a slightly longer recharge time.

The other self-heal now available to a Beastmaster will be Predatory Bond. How the two stack up will be interesting to see. Predatory Bond should be better for erasing small annoying damage over time, while Heal As One will be better in a pinch when you need some healing fast.

Which elite is better will most likely come down to whether or not you need a self-heal in your build (ie: whether or not you'll be able to avoid taking damage), and if Predatory Bond will be enough for your situation.

Personally, I prefer to play a Beastmaster that can use the pet to avoid taking damage (manipulating AI is interesting) and relies on a heavy offense as your only defense. For me, therefore, Heal As One probably won't see too much use. I'll definitely try it out, but I'm not expecting it to be a tough choice at all.

...now if it either removed conditions and/or hexes along with healing, it could actually compete with Ferocious Strike in its overall usefulness. ...we beastmasters desperately need an option to rid our pets of conditions/hexes.

Align · Mar 27, 2006, 09:50 PM // 21:50

If you don't get Troll, how're you going to get healed?

Jenosavel · Mar 27, 2006, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Healing is over-rated.

Haggard · Mar 27, 2006, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Being killed isnt

jibikao · Mar 27, 2006, 10:24 PM // 22:24

In another forum, I've shared my reactions towards the new skills and basically here is what I think:

The 3 Elites:

1. Ferocious Strike: This skill is still a 5/5 Stars Elite for beast masters because it gives us almost unlimited energy. It totally denys energy drain builds and it allows BM to spam some spells that cost too much for bow Rangers without Marksman Wager. It also does healthy +29 at lvl 16. You can't beat this! Ferocious Strike is even better in long battles.

2. Heal as One: I used this skill a lot over the weekend just to see how it does. I rate it 3/5 Stars. The idea is NICE. A.Net finally figures out that they need to find a way to BOND the Master and the Beast. It heals 151 Health at lvl 16. The healing is nice but it has requirements. 12s recharge doesn't make it too useful when you are under attack. The elite status means you can't use Ferocious Strike for energy fuel and you need your pet alive to use this skill. Well, guess what? I've tried just to bring Heal as One and leave Comfort Animal at home. All is well until some axe warriors decide to go after my pet. Heal as One is NOT going to help you. After your pet is dead, you are pretty much shutted down. So we are back to SQUARE ONE = we need comfort animal. So this means Beast Masters need to bring two utility skills for the pet. You are left with VERY FEW skill slots. Do you bring a defensive stance or do you bring some pet attack skills? Tight choice.

However, in PvE, I would rate Heal as One a 4/5 Stars. In PvE, you have more time to recharge skills and you are not always the focus (unlike in PvP when you are being called out). You have more time to heal yourself and your pet. I can see this skill being quite useful. And you can rely less on "human" Monks healing you and your pet.

I've also combo Heal as One with Predatory Bond. Not very impressed. I would rather save that skill slot for a defensive stance if I want defense. Predatory Bond is NOT good... which I'll get to later.

3. Enraged Lunge: Adds +16 (lvl 16) for each recharging BM skill and the max. +damage can't exceed 60. I've tried it several times. There are problems with this skill. First of all, you need BM skills that are recharging. Well, Comfort and Charm don't recharge so you are left with 5 skill slots (assuming you bring rez sig). A.Net has created quite a few pet skills that cost 5E and recharge at 20s. Sounds like they created those skills to compliment Enraged Lunge. I took out Pounce and Poisonous Bite to give myself more recharging time to use Enraged Lunge. The damage is decent but both Pounce/Poisonous bite need 20s to recharge so you are left with almost one pet attack skill per 5s. That's NOT good. I believe I can achieve the similar damage output with Ferocious + Brutual Strike (37 + 37) + Melandru's Assault (21 + 37 + 37). When I use Enraged Lunge, I find myself wanting to use skills so much just to increase my recharging time. My energy got drained so fast. And I have almost no self heal (unlike Heal as One). I rate this skill 2/5 stars. It will be nice if they change it to "Enraged Lunge adds +15 for each Pet Attack skill equipped and the damage output can't exceed 45". The point is Enraged Lunge needs to meet a "condition" in order to deal good damage but this damage isn't even better than Brutual Strike which adds 37 + 37 when the health is below 50% (and not an elite!) and Melandru's Assault.

I guess Enraged Lunge may be a good choice for utility Beast Masters who use Viper's Nest and spirits. Those skills have long recharge time.

----------------------
Predatory Bond stacks with Live Vicarously. I've tried it and while it does heal nicely, your damage output is quite bad and you need Ferocious for energy fuels. The healing still can't save you if the warriors decide to go after you. You need your pet to attack in order to get healed. I haven't tested if it has to be a "successful" hit but without Call of Haste, your pet is not going to attack fast enough to heal enough. Another thing is if your pet is chasing a "kiting" target, good luck leeching his/her health! I guess the skill can be more useful in PvE where monsters are less intelligent! It will be nice if Predatory Bond heals BOTH the Master and the Pet.

Jenosavel · Mar 27, 2006, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Ever heard the phrase "the best defense is a good offense"?

Not even a warrior can last long under the assault from an aggressively offensive pet after the pet skill buffs. Bestial Pounce and/or Melandru's Assault make incredibly short work out of anything. With a little attention to positioning you don't need any self-healing, especially in a team situation where you will undoubtedly have a teammate dedicated to healing the party.

Edit: This was directed at Haggard. Jibikao managed to slip his post in the middle.

jibikao · Mar 27, 2006, 10:36 PM // 22:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenosavel

Ever heard the phrase "the best defense is a good offense"?

Not even a warrior can last long under the assault from an aggressively offensive pet after the pet skill buffs. Bestial Pounce and/or Melandru's Assault make incredibly short work out of anything. With a little attention to positioning you don't need any self-healing, especially in a team situation where you will undoubtedly have a teammate dedicated to healing the party.

Edit: This was directed at Haggard. Jibikao managed to slip his post in the middle.

LOL... I must have edited my post 4 times!!! I kept forgetting to mention the stuff I tested.

You are right, Heal as One seems even less important in Team Organized Battles where you have dedicated healers.

Now, if Heal as One can "cure" one of pet's condition, then I'll definitely rate it higher. I don't know how many times an Ele keeps my pet Blinded for the whole match. Oh god, I hate that!!!

SnipiousMax · Mar 27, 2006, 11:40 PM // 23:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenosavel

What it does allow is for a beastmaster to finally have a decent self-heal (since Troll Unguent was never really an option in the first place).

Personally, I prefer to play a Beastmaster that can use the pet to avoid taking damage (manipulating AI is interesting) and relies on a heavy offense as your only defense. For me, therefore, Heal As One probably won't see too much use. I'll definitely try it out, but I'm not expecting it to be a tough choice at all.

...now if it either removed conditions and/or hexes along with healing, it could actually compete with Ferocious Strike in its overall usefulness. ...we beastmasters desperately need an option to rid our pets of conditions/hexes.

/agree

Condition removal is another issue I have with beast mastery lately.

frojack · Mar 29, 2006, 07:03 AM // 07:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenosavel

Ever heard the phrase "the best defense is a good offense"?

Not even a warrior can last long under the assault from an aggressively offensive pet after the pet skill buffs. Bestial Pounce and/or Melandru's Assault make incredibly short work out of anything. With a little attention to positioning you don't need any self-healing, especially in a team situation where you will undoubtedly have a teammate dedicated to healing the party.

Edit: This was directed at Haggard. Jibikao managed to slip his post in the middle.

Agree/

Beasts are incredibly powerfull when used properly. Example. Take Brutal Strike. A more or less free (with high expertise) Final Thrust, spammable every 5 seconds?
I just find it monsterous when I'm hitting an opponent with Penetration Attack (perfect vamp. mod) + Kindle Arrow + Brutal Strike and dish out 100+ dmg in total to a fully armoured warrior. Nasty...

J1000 · Mar 29, 2006, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenosavel

Ever heard the phrase "the best defense is a good offense"?

Not even a warrior can last long under the assault from an aggressively offensive pet after the pet skill buffs. Bestial Pounce and/or Melandru's Assault make incredibly short work out of anything. With a little attention to positioning you don't need any self-healing, especially in a team situation where you will undoubtedly have a teammate dedicated to healing the party.

Edit: This was directed at Haggard. Jibikao managed to slip his post in the middle.

I'm moonlighting here with Jibikao. For some serious BM domination, try R/E with MA, BS, FS, and Gale. BM 14, Exp 12, Air 9 (for the staff), Wilderness 5.

And on the subject of HaO, I agree it's not very useful. I'd say that means it flat-out sucks, since it also uses up an elite slot. The real kicker to me is that you have to wait till either one of you is below 75% before healing! Is this true?? If so, it only seems useful for people who let their pet die and keep fighting.

jibikao · Mar 29, 2006, 05:09 PM // 17:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by J1000

I'm moonlighting here with Jibikao. For some serious BM domination, try R/E with MA, BS, FS, and Gale. BM 14, Exp 12, Air 9 (for the staff), Wilderness 5.

And on the subject of HaO, I agree it's not very useful. I'd say that means it flat-out sucks, since it also uses up an elite slot. The real kicker to me is that you have to wait till either one of you is below 75% before healing! Is this true?? If so, it only seems useful for people who let their pet die and keep fighting.

What does "moonlighting" with me mean? Sorry, English isn't my first language... it's always good to learn something new everyday!

In regard to Heal as One, it's not a "bad" skill per say. This skill is not as bad as "Skull Crack". It has its use but it still doesn't solve the "core" problem. We need to bring Comfort Animal because Heal as One's healing is not going to justify the lack of "pet ressurection".

Heal as One should be at least useful in PvE and in random PvP.

jibikao · Mar 29, 2006, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack

Agree/

Beasts are incredibly powerfull when used properly. Example. Take Brutal Strike. A more or less free (with high expertise) Final Thrust, spammable every 5 seconds?
I just find it monsterous when I'm hitting an opponent with Penetration Attack (perfect vamp. mod) + Kindle Arrow + Brutal Strike and dish out 100+ dmg in total to a fully armoured warrior. Nasty...

I've been running Melandru's Assault + Vamp Touch. Man, the amount of damage I can do is beyond crazy. Ele is my most favorite target because 99% of them have enchantments on.

I target an Ele, click MA and click Vamp Touch.... almost +150 damage! Then by the time my pet finishes the first MA, you can use MA again. BANG... then one more Vamp Touch = NEAR DEATH or running Ele.

MA's average damage on caster is easily 37 + 85-90. Tell me one melee skill that gives you well over 100 damage per 5s!!!! Too bad there is a condition to meet. hehe

MA is one of my favorite skills now. It allows me to do huge damage on W/Mo!!! lol

Brutual Strike is great too but I prefer having at least one interruption, disrupting lunge.

J1000 · Mar 29, 2006, 05:30 PM // 17:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by jibikao

What does "moonlighting" with me mean? Sorry, English isn't my first language... it's always good to learn something new everyday!

Moonlighting generally refers to a case where you are working a second job, but instead of jobs, we are working a second forum

frojack · Mar 29, 2006, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by jibikao

I've been running Melandru's Assault + Vamp Touch. Man, the amount of damage I can do is beyond crazy. Ele is my most favorite target because 99% of them have enchantments on.

I target an Ele, click MA and click Vamp Touch.... almost +150 damage! Then by the time my pet finishes the first MA, you can use MA again. BANG... then one more Vamp Touch = NEAR DEATH or running Ele.

MA's average damage on caster is easily 37 + 85-90. Tell me one melee skill that gives you well over 100 damage per 5s!!!! Too bad there is a condition to meet. hehe

MA is one of my favorite skills now. It allows me to do huge damage on W/Mo!!! lol

Brutual Strike is great too but I prefer having at least one interruption, disrupting lunge.

Very nice. I'm definately gonna' have to try that one. Though I don't like the idea of having to touch your foe, since warriors don't take too kindly to being touched, lol.
I have used Vampiric gaze though. Works wonders when you can't get line-of-sight. Melandru's Assault sounds like fun though

. Thanks for the suggestion.

jibikao · Mar 29, 2006, 05:38 PM // 17:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by J1000

Moonlighting generally refers to a case where you are working a second job, but instead of jobs, we are working a second forum

I see. I am at work.. what can I do?

jibikao · Mar 29, 2006, 05:42 PM // 17:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack

Very nice. I'm definately gonna' have to try that one. Though I don't like the idea of having to touch your foe, since warriors don't take too kindly to being touched, lol.
I have used Vampiric gaze though. Works wonders when you can't get line-of-sight. Melandru's Assault sounds like fun though

. Thanks for the suggestion.

Well, yes, warriors don't like to get touched and that's why I always bring Disrupting Lunge with me to interrupt their Healing Sig. One interruption will save you so much time/energy to kill them. But Warrior is usually not my first target.

My first target is always Ele, then depends on the situation... there are quite a few 55hp monk in random now. In fact, last night there were two 55hp monk in one random game, and I just touch them TWICE. My team was like "wow, how did they die so fast?" I said "I touched them..." lol

Even if I don't touch them, one Melandru's Assault with lvl 16 BM (or 15BM) does over 55HP anyway. I've killed 55hp with one MA if that monk isn't careful with the pet. But if Protective spirit is on, you can't kill the monk with one MA. Just touch him.

Of course this build has downside. Energy cost is much higher and you have no defensive stance. Trappers are my most hated build because I can't afford to get crippled. And then there is Distortion mesmer/necro who are extremely annoying and there is Spiteful S Necro!

Linkusmax · Mar 29, 2006, 08:11 PM // 20:11

I find the best types of Pet Rangers are Melee or close range based rather then marksmanship.

In my 2 GvG builds one has both a Hammer and Sword R/W Beastmaster and the other has that plus a Touch Ranger. When you combine that with E/R Fire Nukers ala Rift you have some massive preassure potential.

Ferocious Strike is still the best elite, HAO only really has any use in PvE and that attack elite just plain sucks because the best pet skills have a short recharge. (shorter now after the update)

jibikao · Mar 29, 2006, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linkusmax

I find the best types of Pet Rangers are Melee or close range based rather then marksmanship.

In my 2 GvG builds one has both a Hammer and Sword R/W Beastmaster and the other has that plus a Touch Ranger. When you combine that with E/R Fire Nukers ala Rift you have some massive preassure potential.

Ferocious Strike is still the best elite, HAO only really has any use in PvE and that attack elite just plain sucks because the best pet skills have a short recharge. (shorter now after the update)

Yeah, exactly. I've tried Enraged Lunge and I just can't picture how this elite can justify the damage you get from Brutual strike and Melandru's Assault. Sure, they cost more energy but that's what Ferocious Strike is there for! I mean even Predator's Pounce has some great use in PvP with low energy and recharge.

Anyone else tried Enraged Lunge? What's your reaction to this new elite?