Curse

NatalieD · Apr 13, 2006, 03:51 AM // 03:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by holden

what's your point here? diversion causes the skill essentially to cooldown for 59 seconds. where do you get 6? are you confusing diversion with ether lord?

He means the 6 second duration of Diversion - the time during which the target will not use any skills.

Banebow · Apr 13, 2006, 04:38 AM // 04:38

Holy veil counters diversion only if veil is up before diversion lands on the target. Last I knew, monks don't run around maintaining this skill, they use it like they would smite hex. That means it is no better than normal hex removal at countering diversion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella

Migraine is better because diversion has a long cast, is energy intensive, has too short a duration, lastly I will bring to the arguement the "fodder" skills which can be used to "plow" through diversion with little or no trouble. Classic fodder skills are "Res Signet" "Long duration:short downtime stances" and "Situational Skills that fail to meet their niche" and "skill that only need to be cast once" (an example is I'm cast the obsidian flame that is going to kill you; it doesn't matter if it is delayed if you die- I accomplished my job, you as the mesmer may have disabled me temporarly but I have disabled you)

You are taking migrane in the context of a migrane mesmer with interrupts and taking diversion all by it self assuming no support skills. And what is this about fodder skills? Why do you need to use that res signet, have you let an ally die? That stance of yours is about to have a bloody long recharge time. Killing the mesmer is not using a fodder skill. The only skills that actually fit as fodder skills are things like anti-warrior skills when fighting a group without warriors.

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Migrane covered by conjure is 18 dmg per second that ignores armor. If they cast you power leak, power drain, leech sig, or cry the target. Shutting them down completely instead of just snagging 1 skill by chance

I am curious about how these migrane mesmers are getting 100% interrupt hits on 0.5 second RoF's. Do you get a higher overall shutdown? Sure, over any 20 second period of time it is probably true that a migrane mesmer will get more shutdown than a mesmer with diversion and nothing else on his bar. Funnily enough however, most mesmers have more than one skill dedicated to shutdown if they plan on running it. Yet you only include those other skills for the migrane mesmer, probably because no current FoTM build is going around that uses diversion, so we have no base case. Still, any comparison that has one side using 3+ skills and the other using 1 is not going to prove anything.

twicky_kid · Apr 13, 2006, 05:32 AM // 05:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banebow

I am curious about how these migrane mesmers are getting 100% interrupt hits on 0.5 second RoF's. Do you get a higher overall shutdown? Sure, over any 20 second period of time it is probably true that a migrane mesmer will get more shutdown than a mesmer with diversion and nothing else on his bar. Funnily enough however, most mesmers have more than one skill dedicated to shutdown if they plan on running it. Yet you only include those other skills for the migrane mesmer, probably because no current FoTM build is going around that uses diversion, so we have no base case. Still, any comparison that has one side using 3+ skills and the other using 1 is not going to prove anything.

Who says you use it on a boon prot? Find a healer, emo, or e surger to interrupt. Plenty of other targets then a boon prot.

Nothing to do with a FoTM build. Diversion and Migrane have both been equally used since the beginning of the game. Diversion used to dominate with its 2 second cast before FC.

The way I look at diversion is its a chance skill. You have a chance to disable a skill. Blackout there is no chance. Migrane there is no chance. I'm not going to use a skill that "might" work. It does have its place in some builds. With the current meta game I believe its cast time is too slow. If you do spam it that's all you'll be doing. If not you'll be interrupted majority of the time at high end gvg. 1 Ranger will own you trying to spam this all the time.

I'd use diversion the same way you use shame. Force them into a situation where they have to cast through it or react before they notice the diversion. By no means is diversion a useless skill but its very easy to get around.

Valkyries · Apr 13, 2006, 05:34 AM // 05:34

Quote:

At best, diversion will lock-down your target for 6 seconds. You lose 10 energy for disabling them for those 6 seconds, in those 6 seconds you gain 8 energy, likely they will as well.

You just destroyed your entire argument right here.

Read what you wrote. AT BEST Diversion will lock down your target for 6 seconds. Which correct me if Im wrong, thats the same thing Blackout does is it not? So lets look at the differences.

Blackout -> Touch spell. So you have to get CLOSE to the Monk/Spellcaster/Whichever. You obviously have never done any HA/GVG because you would know that these guys are usually on the back line. And if you go and try to Black them out you are probably going to loose at least half your life in the process, or even die. So if you think dying is worth a monk not having skills for 7 seconds, then by all means go for it.

Diversion -> MINUMIM they don't cast anything for 6 seconds (basically the same as blackout yes? Except they don't cast willingly because they are "scared" to loose a skill for an entire minute). Not to meantion your skills are still all well and good so you can Sure, Glyph, Power Drain, whatever your heart desires. Next, Diversion is a spell that can be cast from far away. So no dying just to TRY and get to a Monk.

You may use the argument, "yes but you use Blackout on a Warrior"... yes this is true. It kills their Adrienline. But do you realize what he is going to do to you when you have this 1.5 or so second "pause" in front of your enemy warrior and all his skills are disabled? Its not like he isn't going to know where it came from. Like it has any surprise factor. He is going to turn, and proceed to smash your face with his (Insert fav Warrior weapon of choice here).

So I really don't see how Blackout is better in any high lvl GVG. In RA/TA, it can be debated. In HA/GVG, its no comparion. Seriously, go into Observer mode and WATCH what EVERY HIGH LVL GUILD IS RUNNING. Blackout will be in about 5% while Diversion will be 95%. Yes those stats are made up but Im probably not that far off.

Valkyries · Apr 13, 2006, 05:35 AM // 05:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

I'd use diversion the same way you use shame. Force them into a situation where they have to cast through it or react before they notice the diversion. By no means is diversion a useless skill but its very easy to get around.

Ouch!

I Don't even know how to comment on this.....

Hella Good · Apr 13, 2006, 07:21 AM // 07:21

Blackout + Distortion is how it works. You can put Dist on while casting Blackout. Works fine for me. I get the evasion and I get the shutdown. I was just Echoing B/o earlier with Dist. There is something evil about keeping some1 in the dark till the cows come home.

And you actually have the time to use a skill inbetween your chain B/o-s.

Got side-tracked... On topic, all the shutdown skills you can chain so whatever it is your target is doing, it's either diverted, or shut down, or take massive damage for spells, or they lose nrg.

twicky_kid · Apr 13, 2006, 07:46 AM // 07:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valkyries

You may use the argument, "yes but you use Blackout on a Warrior"... yes this is true. It kills their Adrienline. But do you realize what he is going to do to you when you have this 1.5 or so second "pause" in front of your enemy warrior and all his skills are disabled? Its not like he isn't going to know where it came from. Like it has any surprise factor. He is going to turn, and proceed to smash your face with his (Insert fav Warrior weapon of choice here).

So I really don't see how Blackout is better in any high lvl GVG. In RA/TA, it can be debated. In HA/GVG, its no comparion. Seriously, go into Observer mode and WATCH what EVERY HIGH LVL GUILD IS RUNNING. Blackout will be in about 5% while Diversion will be 95%. Yes those stats are made up but Im probably not that far off.

Blackout is ran on rangers majority of the time. Some mes run it as well. If you blackout a war the most he can do to you is normal dmg since his attack skills are locked. 5-7 seconds is plenty of time to kite away. Besides you should have enough war hate to survive no problem. Blind, faint, blackout, ect is enough to shut down any war. If he turns on you and chases that's fine. I don't mind killing over extended wars.

The trick with blackout is few can use it well. You don't want to run to their back lines to blackout a monk. That is just dumb in the first place.

Valkyries · Apr 13, 2006, 07:55 AM // 07:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Blackout is ran on rangers majority of the time. Some mes run it as well. If you blackout a war the most he can do to you is normal dmg since his attack skills are locked. 5-7 seconds is plenty of time to kite away. Besides you should have enough war hate to survive no problem. Blind, faint, blackout, ect is enough to shut down any war. If he turns on you and chases that's fine. I don't mind killing over extended wars.

The trick with blackout is few can use it well. You don't want to run to their back lines to blackout a monk. That is just dumb in the first place.

Really??

So how are you going to "kite away" when all of your skills are disabled as well?

What Warrior Hate?? If you are running a Dom Mesmer, then you are probably not heavy illusion. Meaning you are not running REAL Warrior hate like Ineptitude, Clumsy, etc. Besides, your skills are locked. So if by Kite you mean Run then I really do not see the purpose of your argument what so ever.

You can either a) Cast blackout and run away which results in a lot more time wasted because there is really no point or b) Cast Diversion, not run away, and cast other spells on other targets as they come up. Power Draining Elementals, Cry of Frustation on the Warriors, etc, etc...

As for Rangers, why would you ever blackout a ranger??? If they are trapped based, that makes NO sense to me at all... if they are interupted based, they are probably in the back lines close to/protecting the Monk. Interupting from afar. So you would have to run to the back lines to get to them. Lets face it, Blackout is best used on a spellcaster, because then they are squishy with no way to defend themselves. It works well with a spike. Blackout Target, the rest of the team spike him/her, move on to next target.

Im sorry but that argument makes no sense to me.

EDIT: Oh perhaps you meant Ran AS a Ranger.

IE Ranger/Mesmer build? Is that what you meant? If so, not related to this mesmer discussion. Since this is what we are talking about. I won't even get into other classes because there are definitely pros/cons for that. And just for the record, I would consider running Blackout as a Ranger for shutdown, that would be viable.... Much much more than running Blackout as a Mesmer.

twicky_kid · Apr 13, 2006, 03:13 PM // 15:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valkyries

What Warrior Hate?? If you are running a Dom Mesmer, then you are probably not heavy illusion. Meaning you are not running REAL Warrior hate like Ineptitude, Clumsy, etc. Besides, your skills are locked. So if by Kite you mean Run then I really do not see the purpose of your argument what so ever.

You can either a) Cast blackout and run away which results in a lot more time wasted because there is really no point or b) Cast Diversion, not run away, and cast other spells on other targets as they come up. Power Draining Elementals, Cry of Frustation on the Warriors, etc, etc...

Yes kite means running away. You want to try to cross other players so the war gets stuck on them while he pounds the space bar chasing you. War hate coming from your team mates not just yourself.

Blackout a war = no spike. Backbreaker, evisc, and final take a while to gain enough adrenaline. Blackout erases that adrenaline. Diversion will just make his pound on you for another 6 sec before spiking you down.

Like it or not warriors are the meta game. No other class can output as much dmg. If you do not prepare for wars in ways of shutting them down you are not going to last long. There are the occasional spike teams but they simply do not last. The longer the battle goes on the worse it gets for spike teams.

As for the argument here diversion is better in the context of the arguement. That's because interrupts are never good alone no matter how you look at it. Interrupts synergy with other skills is what makes them so powerful. Diversion really doesn't have any synergy with anything its just something that is thrown in there because what else would you take from the dom line. You already have your dmg from surge, burn, ect....

If you try to look at this without including other skills this debate is really nothing. I have more than 1 skill on my bar. Its they synergy between those skills that make them affective. I don't think any skill is that great alone.

The Real Roy Keane · Apr 13, 2006, 04:16 PM // 16:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella

In my belief; diversion is not worth using since its nerf long ago. It needs its old power, we need a counter for BoonProts as at the time there is no class in the game that can take one down unassissted.

No, it doesn't. When you can almost completely shutdown an opponent using one skill it's broken, plain and simple.

What if... · Apr 13, 2006, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Real Roy Keane

No, it doesn't. When you can almost completely shutdown an opponent using one skill it's broken, plain and simple.

I'm curious, what were the conditions of the pre-nerf diversion?

twicky_kid · Apr 13, 2006, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by What if...

I'm curious, what were the conditions of the pre-nerf diversion?

Increased casting time to 3; Increased recharge to 10 seconds.

Used to be 2 sec cast and 5? recharge might have been 8

JR · Apr 13, 2006, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Barring skills such as Distracting Shot which give the interrupted skill a 20 second cool down, there is a fairly simple and logical rule.

Regards to the skill you are interrupting: If it's recharge is longer than the duration of your diversion (30s, 60s etc) then an interrupt is fine. If it is a very short recharge (2s, 5s etc) then diversion will be a lot more effective.

qwe4rty · Apr 13, 2006, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Players know not to cast through diversion. If you do catch some one with it blame it on luck not skill (well skill if they are complete noobs).

Otherwise its a 6 sec shutdown with a 4 sec cool down. Migrane interrupts is better because you can shut down a target for 15+ sec while draining their energy, gaining energy, and dealing dmg.

Diversion is a skills used for spiking. Cast diversion on a monk and spike the target. It forces him to cast through it if he wishes to attempt a save. Other than that there are better options. That 2+ sec cast time hurts in the long run.

You misread. The caster was already in the process of casting a longer than 2 minute spell. Therefore, if Diversion gets on him fast enough, he's screwed.

Mouse at Large · Apr 13, 2006, 08:26 PM // 20:26

Just out of interest, why is Clumsiness never mentioned in the context of interrupts. As far as I can see, the description is "For 4-7 seconds, the next time target foe attempts to attack, the attack is interrupted and target foe suffers 10-76 damage."

As far as I'm aware "attack" covers both melee and casting (possibly sigs as well?)

10 energy, 1 sec cast, 10 recharge.

Sure, it does not actually steal energy, so it's shutdown value is minimal, but combined with E-Surge on casters or Ineptitude on melees, I find it to be very useful

Theos · Apr 13, 2006, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by qwe4rty

You misread. The caster was already in the process of casting a longer than 2 minute spell. Therefore, if Diversion gets on him fast enough, he's screwed.

Two minute spell? Wow...

Anyway, I have to agree with Twicky. Diversion is too luck dependant... its also a hex. If we are comparing to Blackout, there is really no contest. Blackout is a far better skill that just works, it doesn't require an immense degree of luck or a long casting time spell... or some idiot hitting buttons.

As for Migrane, well to each his own. I'd take Migrane and the degen over Diversion though.

In GvG Diversion becomes pointless, it may get someone the first time its used but thats going to be it. Just a "oh wow didn't see that coming" deal. Next time you land it, or try to land it that cast time is easy to interupt, it will get removed or waited out. If people can survive Blackout shutting down their skills for 7 seconds, I am sure they can bare 6 seconds of an easily removable hex.

Now if you build a build that is designed to plow Diversion under many cover hexes then sure it won't get removed but it will get waited out. Its too conditional and luck based to have any realistic value in PvP where monkey mashers are not involved.

Diversion mesmers are also prime targets for Distracting Shot rangers, "Hey look diversion... slowly being cast... pow... oop no more diversion."

LouAl · Apr 13, 2006, 08:52 PM // 20:52

@ theos
I think qwe4rty meant a 2 sec cast, not 2 minute... (maybe you knew that and were being sarcastic)

@ mouse at large
Clumsiness is an interrupt-ish spell in the same way that shame or guilt is an interrupt-ish spell, it only works IF they try to attack (in the case of clumsy) or cast (in the case of the guilt/shame). To answer your question on clumsiness triggers, it only triggers on an attack, not a spell/non-attack skill (ie vamp touch)

My opinion is that clumsiness is there to catch a warrior before s/he can stopp attacking so in that sense it is a create pressure/catch them off gaurd type spell, and the interrupt is just there as a bonus.

Mouse at Large · Apr 13, 2006, 09:10 PM // 21:10

@ LouAl - it's not that I doubt you, but is there a second opinion on the clumsiness trigger. I thought that "attack" covered melee/physical and spell/signet attacks. The only things left out would be stuff that targets allies/self e.g heals, hex removals etc.

holden · Apr 13, 2006, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theos

Now if you build a build that is designed to plow Diversion under many cover hexes then sure it won't get removed but it will get waited out. Its too conditional and luck based to have any realistic value in PvP where monkey mashers are not involved.

Diversion mesmers are also prime targets for Distracting Shot rangers, "Hey look diversion... slowly being cast... pow... oop no more diversion."

i dont think you've ever played with diversion. you said some goofy things. In gvg diversion becomes pointless? i don't know how you can justify that.
i dont know how this became a debate between diversion and blackout. many mesmers take both.

mesmers have fastcasting. this allows a lot of freedom. is the ranger just going to sit on me and wait for diversion? if so i'm doing a great job. i'd rather him sit on me than the monk.

degen is for chumps. noobs. and degen spells are all hexes as well. removed just as easily as diversion.

cover hexes are a great idea.

Valkyries · Apr 13, 2006, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theos

Two minute spell? Wow...

Anyway, I have to agree with Twicky. Diversion is too luck dependant... its also a hex. If we are comparing to Blackout, there is really no contest. Blackout is a far better skill that just works, it doesn't require an immense degree of luck or a long casting time spell... or some idiot hitting buttons.

As for Migrane, well to each his own. I'd take Migrane and the degen over Diversion though.

In GvG Diversion becomes pointless, it may get someone the first time its used but thats going to be it. Just a "oh wow didn't see that coming" deal. Next time you land it, or try to land it that cast time is easy to interupt, it will get removed or waited out. If people can survive Blackout shutting down their skills for 7 seconds, I am sure they can bare 6 seconds of an easily removable hex.

Now if you build a build that is designed to plow Diversion under many cover hexes then sure it won't get removed but it will get waited out. Its too conditional and luck based to have any realistic value in PvP where monkey mashers are not involved.

Diversion mesmers are also prime targets for Distracting Shot rangers, "Hey look diversion... slowly being cast... pow... oop no more diversion."

This is really not meant to be rude at all but its going to sound it. You seriously have no idea what you are talking about. Diversion is pointless in GVG? Are you kidding me? Diversion is AWESOME in PVP.... AWESOME!

Learn to play a bit in high lvl PVP. Before you make judgement calls on things you know little about. Im sorry, Im not trying to be rude but your comments erk me.

Holden said it best. Most mesmers take both blackout and Diversion. Why this turned into a huge debate on which to take Im not really sure. I made the argument that if you were to take one, in HA/GVG Diversion is superior and I know this is true because Ive tested it, Ive read the forums, I've looked at the top guilds and I've talked about it wtih people in game and on this site. I highly doubt that EVERYONE is wrong. As said, its good to take both in some situations but if I had the choice of one or the other its Diversion hands down.