Curse

oljomo · Apr 10, 2006, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Hi

Running out my choking gas + practiced stance in a gvg i noticed some interesting effects of it, most noticeably the interrupts cant be evaded or blocked, and cant be stopped by blindness either. This means that unlike someone using solely the timed interrupts (those you have to activate), you cannot be more or less taken out the fight by a single blinding flash casting ele.

However choking gas is also easier to evade, as a good player will wait until theyve just been hit to start casting a new spell, this can be countered by cahingin one of the timed interrupts after a standard arrow, however this will not always catch them (sometimes it will come too quick to catch the spell)

the other advantage of using choking gas is the extra damage it does, sure +7-8 dmaage per hit doesnt sound like much, but it does add up (im not sure, but it might also be especially useful against reversal of fortune as it triggers it)

Note you can use both, and most people probably will so that they can interupt actions other than spells however if everyshot you fire niterrupts spells it is very had to catch a spell to trigger the effects of concussion and savage shot.

also, choking as is nigh on useless without practiced stance, so with just using the timed interrupts you have room for anotehr elite (marksmans wager so you can spam concussion, or even melandrus arrows for added DoT, punishing for yet another interruopt, or oath shot to help with recharges such as whirling defense)

Another key is that choking gas spam requires very little skill to use, whereas using the timed interrupts can be very difficultespecially if your trying to interrupt 1 second casts

So what do you prefer to use, and what do you think is better

oljomo

NatalieD · Apr 10, 2006, 01:48 AM // 01:48

"Timed" interrupts can also be spammed. With Distracting, Punishing, and Savage, you can drench a target in interrupts pretty well without bothering with gas.

You'd still be vulnerable to block/evade and blindness, though.

Jenosavel · Apr 10, 2006, 02:11 AM // 02:11

The main reason I moved away from Choking Gas is because it's useless against skills. It's nice for catching one second casts, but timed interrupts are the only way to stop key skills.

SnoopJeDi · Apr 10, 2006, 02:15 AM // 02:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by oljomo

Another key is that choking gas spam requires very little skill to use, whereas using the timed interrupts can be very difficultespecially if your trying to interrupt 1 second casts

I disagree tbh. Playing my CG build requires way more situational awareness than any interrupt spam I've ever really played. I've seen MORE success interrupting those 3/4 second cast spells like RoF with CG than I ever have with interrupts, no matter how practiced I am. Also consider that some of the most effective builds are extraordinarily simple, and don't really require much in-game skill, but require meta-game skill, paying attention to spells being cast, target movements, etc.

But I digress. It really depends on what you intend to do. Since CG only affects spells, it offers very little use against bow/melee attacks, signets, etc.

Attack interrupting is effective, but the long recharge can make things hard on you. Interrupt + Oath Shot + Interrupt is a favorite of mine, especially with poison. You can put some pressure on a monk rather quickly that way, as they try to mend themselves, wasting energy and time.

My CG build mixes a little of both worlds. Of course, I'm laying CG on the caster as much as possible, but I still have distracting shot to knock out important things (cough, res sig). I can also knock out annoying non-spell skills (like signet of devotion) from time to time, when necessary.

In the end, it really depends on your situation. Neither build is definitively better than the other, and you just have to decide for yourself. That said, I like playing CG in RA much more than interrupt spammer.

Siren · Apr 10, 2006, 02:26 AM // 02:26

Snoop summed it up nicely. But one thing he didn't really go into detail regarding how CG can be used without Practiced Stance. The trick is getting your timing down. Using Serpent's Quickness with a 30-second duration puts your Choking Gas duration at 12 seconds (Wilderness Survival at 15).

SQ-->CG-->Oath Shot is pretty nice. With SQ decreasing the recharge on Oath Shot to roughly 13 seconds, you can keep Choking Gas up indefinitely. Granted, it's not as automatic as Practiced Stance+CG, but I find it's much more efficient.

Plus, with Oath Shot, you can bring Distracting Shot, Savage Shot, even Debilitating Shot and have them all recharged pretty frequently.

I've found a mix works best. SQ/CG/Oath Shot, then the usual interrupt attacks, with a Throw Dirt...uh thrown-in for good measure. And if you have a WarHate character on your team already, Pin Down works nicely. I've been running a 10-11-10 attribute spread lately, and it works out well. 10+1 in Expertise, 11+4 in Wilderness, and 10+1 in Marksmanship.

I've found that a zealous bow is pretty handy, too.

LordMahal · Apr 10, 2006, 05:28 AM // 05:28

The massive drawback from CG is not stopping skills. Sure I can bring DS and SS, but thats now 3 interupts and an elite on my bar. I really really wanted to like CG and practiced stance, but I found I was better at using DS, SS and sometimes even punishing. Its a timing thing. If you know your enemy, watch how and what they cast, youll have them by the throat in no time. I will say that CG is great if you have a bunch of casters standing together... as if that ever happens.

swordfisher · Apr 10, 2006, 05:40 AM // 05:40

I imagine that the Serpents Quickness, Oath Shot, Choking Gas combo is very effective...because it involves Oath Shot and Serpents Quickness. This makes for some serious possibilities- drain enchant becomes a very potent skill for energy management, 60s spirits recharge about every 14 seconds, etc etc.

LordMahal · Apr 10, 2006, 08:13 AM // 08:13

But two recharging skills... at the same time? I dont know if Id like them both on my bar just so I could use CG. CG isnt that great.

leeky baby · Apr 10, 2006, 09:05 AM // 09:05

i rember playing agaist 2 r/w in gvg we got owned

was on the fire map in a tight area near flag stand

they were r/w

pratice stance
chocking gas
flurry
savage
distracting

Siren · Apr 10, 2006, 04:04 PM // 16:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordMahal

But two recharging skills... at the same time? I dont know if Id like them both on my bar just so I could use CG. CG isnt that great.

It's all about the synergy, man. It's pretty amazing having Oath Shot recharging in 12-13 seconds (gotta love SQ), instead of its usual 20 second recharge. Provided you stay above 50% health, you have SQ up all the time, because Oath Shot recharges it.

swordfisher raises a great point about something like Drain Enchantment for e-management and a minor target debuff, too. Oath Shot will recharge that, not to mention if you use Drain Enchant while under SQ, its 25-second recharge becomes 19-20 I think.

And Debilitating Shot+Choking Gas is hell for a caster. They're interrupted, lose the energy for the spell, than an additional 10 energy on top of that. Pretty damn evil I'd say.

SnoopJeDi · Apr 10, 2006, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Wow, good point with Oath Shot + SQ + CG siren, I never even thought of that. I'll definitely have to run that one some time, because it allows me to unlock a second tier of caster-hate:

Serpent's Quickness
Choking Gas
Flurry
Pin Down
Debilitating Shot
Distracting Shot
Oath Shot
Pin Down (extra time, oh man!)
Debilitating Shot
Distracting Shot
SQ, CG, etc.

That's a full 7 skills there, which ostracizes "Watch Yourself!" from the other build (need a spot for res), but makes it even more deadly. Wow.

[edit]Talk about increasing meta-game pressure though. That's definitely not a build to play when you're tired or distracted.

Siren · Apr 10, 2006, 05:51 PM // 17:51

The only trick there is timing the use of SQ and Flurry. Pity both are stances. What probably is worth doing is SQ-->CG-->Oath Shot-->Flurry

That will probably enable you to keep CG up all the time, then when you need to use another Oath Shot, flick back into SQ, use CG again (it would probably be available), then back into Oath Shot, then back into Flurry. I think it'd more break down like the following:

Serpent's Quickness
Choking Gas
Oath Shot
Flurry
Pin Down
Debilitating Shot
Distracting Shot
SQ, CG, Oath Shot, etc

Using Oath Shot after CG is an absolute necessity, because you need to be able to go back into CG immediately after the first 12-second duration expires, to keep it going.

I find that Pin Down and Debilitating Shot (with CG) work well against casters, while the Distracting Shot isn't necessarily used with CG, although it can be, certainly. I more use Distracting Shot as a safety. Catch the Heal Sigs, Res Sigs, Troll Unguents, and spells that I won't be able to Choking Gas auto-attack in time to interrupt.

ubermancer · Apr 10, 2006, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by swordfisher

I imagine that the Serpents Quickness, Oath Shot, Choking Gas combo is very effective...because it involves Oath Shot and Serpents Quickness.

LOL - so true.

Dr. Fire · Apr 12, 2006, 01:42 PM // 13:42

Ok, I am still not quite sold on this build. I like it, but am not signing on to it just yet. The reason is the lack of damage. I have been using a PvP build that is a damage/interupt. Points being 13-12-12 (1 Sup used, and only 1 point wasted). As all of you know, when you go above 12 in any attribute, with the exception of maybe Elementalists, you are gaining, but at a diminished rate. I have done extensive experimentation in the GToB, and am pretty much sold on no more than 12 for Marksmanship. Obviously you are going to gain (though diminished) armor penetration with a higher Marksmanship, the difference in the damage that I was doing to the armor dummies was not significant enough to justify sacrificing points out of Exp, or WS. There in is the rub for me in using CG. Is the point sacrifice from Marks and Exp to pump up WS worth the loss of damage dealing and energy reduction just to squeeze a few more seconds of time and 1 more point of extra damage out of CG? Plus the use of Flurry again is reducing damage output. CG is also an inexact science, and once on to you the enemy can in fact interupt your casting of it. I have used a plethora of builds in PvP and still like the damage deal + DoT + interupt build. Utilizing Penetrating Attack, Poison Arrow, savage shot for spells, distracting shot for skills, pin down, troll unguent for self heal and rez sig. I use the 8th slot for either read the wind for added damage; ignite arrows for the added fire dmg, and splash damage; or serpents quickness to speed up recharge times of your staple skills. Another nice wrinkle is utilizing Necro as your secondary. One thing is certain in PvP, and that is that one or many of your opponents are going to use conditions. So with Necro secondary I take off poison arrow, and add Plague touch. In this build I just give one of them all the conditions that they put on me. I can then add another elite of my choice. I often add Escape. You get + 25% run speed and 75% chance to evade attacks. With a 30 sec recharge it is far preferrable to WD, or LR. Of course everything changes if going with a Ranger Spike team.

I apologize for getting a bit off topic.

Now on the positive side, I think the CG build could be a nice support build in some 8v8 match's depending on the team build.

Siren · Apr 12, 2006, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Fire

Is the point sacrifice from Marks and Exp to pump up WS worth the loss of damage dealing and energy reduction just to squeeze a few more seconds of time and 1 more point of extra damage out of CG?

Yes. With CG, you don't care about doing damage. Pumping more points into WS is only for increasing the duration. The damage increase is irrelevant.

Dr. Fire · Apr 12, 2006, 08:10 PM // 20:10

Well I must say that this is what makes this game so much fun. Debateing Strats and trying them out is a blast. With only 8 skill slots, there are just soooooo many possibilities. I tried the CG build in the Random Arena today for the fun of it, and as I predicted an enemy Ranger interupted my casting of CG!! I don't think the Random Arena was a fair test of this build so I will give it a shot on one of my next 8v8 matches if it works out in the group build.

SnoopJeDi · Apr 12, 2006, 09:22 PM // 21:22

CG isn't about doing damage, so if you want to be a damage ranger, don't play it, or add another preparation and swap them around for the situation. Heck, there are plenty friendly enchantments that could help boost your damage if you're looking for a team build.

And flurry isn't really decreasing your power, because you gain the CG power. (which is absolute, rather than flurry's relative decrease) So, you're more or less at a standard, if not better, hit than a normal ranger.

I've never had CG interrupted on me personally, but I always try to play it real quiet when I do use it. I feel like a stealthy person, sneaking up on unsuspecting monks and ruining them

Dr. Fire · Apr 12, 2006, 10:31 PM // 22:31

It isn't that I don't understand the concept of the build, because I do. I realize that this is a build based on shutting down a caster by rapid fire of CG and utililizing the skill speed ups or oath shot to keep it up constantly. I get that. I was merely offering up a different perspective on the utilization of attribute points, and the seeming heavy cost to gain a few seconds of time. I also acknowledged the possibilities of this build in 8v8, and plan on giving it a try. So I am not bashing the build but rather throwing some other points out there.

ump · Apr 12, 2006, 10:35 PM // 22:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Fire

Well I must say that this is what makes this game so much fun. Debateing Strats and trying them out is a blast. With only 8 skill slots, there are just soooooo many possibilities. I tried the CG build in the Random Arena today for the fun of it, and as I predicted an enemy Ranger interupted my casting of CG!! I don't think the Random Arena was a fair test of this build so I will give it a shot on one of my next 8v8 matches if it works out in the group build.

Not that I want anyone to use this combo on me, but couldn't you replace Flurry with Lightning Reflexes for both attack speed and evading? SQ->Oath->LR->CG. Then, fill out the build with utility like maybe Throw Dirt, Distracting Shot, Savage Shot, or Called Shot. By the way, how does choking gas work exactly? Does it work exactly when the arrow hits? How long does it last after the arrow hits? How does the spreading of the gas work? How long does it last then? With that in mind, do I have to keep firing arrows at my target to keep them under the effect of the gas?

swordfisher · Apr 13, 2006, 12:23 AM // 00:23

Yes, the gas is an additional hit when your arrows land, and is simultaneous with the arrow damage (or miss). I doesn't "last" on an enemy, but as long as you keep firing arrows at them, choking gas will keep interrupting. I assume the AOE on Choking Gas is 'adjacent.'