Curse

Thom Bangalter · Mar 25, 2006, 06:44 AM // 06:44

I have a huge problem with assassins. They are the second of only 2 melee fighters in the game, but they go down like a wuss. I get the idea that they're supposed to sneak in, get off their attack, and shadow step back, but a point blank aoe is going to mess them up. Any knock down skill messes up their combo, rendering them kinda useless. I see them being a popular secondary class for basically everone due to the shadow stepping and what not, but I doubt primary assassins are going to be of that much use.

Dauntless · Mar 25, 2006, 06:55 AM // 06:55

You obviously have not changed around your build, the default build is alright but you can do better with what skills you are given. It also sounds like you are dashing or shadow steping in ahead of your team giving them less time to come help you causing all agro on you. bad idea. I love my assassin. Death is not that much of an issue imo, just look at the available skills and adapt, be creative.

Siren · Mar 25, 2006, 08:22 AM // 08:22

The joys of being a primary Assassin? I think Critical Strikes is reason enough to go primary, honestly. You have a lot of killing power, not to mention Critical Strikes becomes an amazing energy engine for you, even if you don't decide to use Critical Eye along with the attribute itself. Combine it with Zealous daggers or whatever and you'll never run out of energy.

In order to be a successful Assassin, you need to constantly be aware of your surroundings, and be able to react very, very quickly. You're not tough. You're actually pretty squishy. But you're squishy because you can inflict so much damage so quickly. There has to be a trade-off.

Primary Assassins are incredible. I've been using one whenever I'm playing GW right now, heh. There are so many devastating skill combinations. Hell, the ability to put runes for any of those attribute lines is worth going primary. It's almost obscene to think what a 16 in Dagger Mastery could do.

You can avoid most attacks in the game as an Assassin. They've got some wicked evasion stances, their movement is pretty much unmatched, and if you use the right damage mitigation, AoE means absolutely nothing. Not to mention you could go A/Me and bring along a Mantra of _______.

LaserLight · Mar 25, 2006, 08:43 AM // 08:43

Heh...everyone tries the teleport-in-ahead-of-the-party trick and gets squashed like Elmer Fudd. it always happens, it's a prerequisite of playing a primary Assassin. The fun comes later, when and if you get over the humiliation and feelings of uselessness that initial squashing gives off, take a look at Dagger Mastery's raw damaging power, Deadly Art's hideous array of damage-boosting tools (Impale...*shudders*), and Shadow Arts is just...man.

Yeah, primary Assassins will do just fine once people have blown the packaging peanuts off them. it'll take some time to shake the class around and see what builds fall out, but even now I can see some real champs coming together.

Impale -> Wild Blow (Warrior secondary. Duh) -> Black Lotus Strike-> Twisting Fangs -> Moebius Strike. Let's see...ye get roughly 45-60 damage from Impale depending on your level in Deadly Arts, a critical hit (Energy!) and decent damage, plus an unavoidable defense-stance canceler, +30 or so damage and 5+ Energy for Black Lotus Strike (assuming maxed or damn near to it Critical Strikes), Twisting Fangs speaks for itself, and Moebius comes in with its +25 and up damage and instant recharge. This is on top of the Deep Wound and Bleeding from Fangs.

So yeah. Primary Assassins will more than pull their weight :-P

Lady Lorwinia · Mar 26, 2006, 05:06 AM // 05:06

The thing is.. I'm probably going to make an a/mo or some secondary that has hex removal.

SS + empathy really really really hurts because to do the damage that makes assassins, assassins they need to do fast chains of attacks.

Lead + off hand+ dual and lather rinse and repeat.

You can't do that without owning yourself with empathy +ss so either you get a secondary with hex removal, or you get lucky and find a monk who knows what he's doing^^

jpsantos20 · Mar 26, 2006, 07:19 AM // 07:19

somehow i am loving the assassins even tho i die many times. hehehehe I use warrior as my secondary. I use Frenzy or that new stance that gives me more attack speed to speed thing up a bit. but i still cant go one on one against a warrior but i will take him anytime with a monk by my side.

LaserLight · Mar 26, 2006, 10:19 AM // 10:19

Actually, in some of the 12v12 missions I've run, I've found that my Assassin primary can kick the snot out of the majority of Warriors one on one. Viper's Defense really helps - the teleport distance is long enough that by hitting VD, then Dark Escape, I can escape and evade enemies, but it's also short enough that I can use it to attack, inflicting Poison on an enemy Warr with maybe a second or two's interrupt in my attack flow.

That and the fact that Assassins just hit so much harder than Warrs, and I can usually do unto them before they do unto me. Heh...getting in two Critical Strikes (dual attack) a stream helps. Moebius Strike really is a lot better now.

Sidra · Mar 26, 2006, 02:24 PM // 14:24

Leaping Mantis is probably better than Black Mantis due to the fact that it cripples if the foe is moving away, (which is when I use it a lot because he often never stops running by the time i'm all recharged), but you have a hex in there (impale) so I think it should be alright. The energy becomes a bit of a scare though. Black Mantis takes 10. L.Mantis takes 5. Twisting also takes 10, And I think you can do more damage with Death Blossom which also does damage to nearby foes. Wild Blow is very nice because it will also cancel Whirling on rangers and things like glads defence on warriors, making it much easier to kill people with. If you kill mesmers very fast though (they never see death's charge coming- just hit them with your combo at light speed since they dont really interrupt. A normal mesmer wont even really notice in 12 v 12 because of all of the random melee).. A big problem is MMs, because you can easily take them out, but the minions usually kill you after if not before you finish your combo >.<. I've hit duel 70s on Blades of Steel once with 4 other skills recharging. If you have a warrior who is still alive after that, use vipers and get the hell out of there. try to heal yourself and run in and voila! dead warrior. unless they're a stance tank, but that can be countered by the wild blow.

sorry for going on so much. I think the assassin is my favorite class ever. ever.

system696 · Mar 26, 2006, 02:26 PM // 14:26

Personally, this beta weekend sucks... I have no idea what is good or bad for skills so i just left the beta alone...

glountz · Mar 26, 2006, 03:04 PM // 15:04

I seriously don't see assassins primary going far in PvP. They rock in PVE, where hex removal, condition removal, enchant removal, e-denial and anti-warr conditions are rare to inexistant. But in PvP... A mesmer/curse necro eat them at breakfast. As well as a blinding Ele. Or guardian on your lead attack.
Only time will prove me wrong or right, but seriously, there are simply too many ways IMO to mitigate them efficiently.
To deal their damage (not so awesome sorry, a pure axe warrior will do the same), they have THREE prerequisites:
- To have energy. It seems stupid as warrs need also adrenalin, but AD is by far easier to have and more difficult to loose than energy. If you miss an attack you skip a shot of AD, if you miss an assassin attack you loose your energy wether it succeeds or not. An assassin hexed by spirit shackles is reduced to nothing.
- Conditions/hex prerequisites. Most assassins attacks need your target to be affected by some condition. Some warriors attacks have also these kind of prerequisites, but quite less than assassins.
- To chain your attacks in a certain order. This is, I think, where the assassins are so weak. If only one of your attack is catched by diversion/diversion shot/etc..., this is the end. If you miss, same thing.

That's my point of view, but as assassins require so much prerequisites to deal effectively their damage, I think they will be easily screwed up in serious PvP.

Banebow · Mar 26, 2006, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

I seriously don't see assassins primary going far in PvP. They rock in PVE, where hex removal, condition removal, enchant removal, e-denial and anti-warr conditions are rare to inexistant. But in PvP... A mesmer/curse necro eat them at breakfast. As well as a blinding Ele. Or guardian on your lead attack.
Only time will prove me wrong or right, but seriously, there are simply too many ways IMO to mitigate them efficiently.
To deal their damage (not so awesome sorry, a pure axe warrior will do the same), they have THREE prerequisites:
- To have energy. It seems stupid as warrs need also adrenalin, but AD is by far easier to have and more difficult to loose than energy. If you miss an attack you skip a shot of AD, if you miss an assassin attack you loose your energy wether it succeeds or not. An assassin hexed by spirit shackles is reduced to nothing.
- Conditions/hex prerequisites. Most assassins attacks need your target to be affected by some condition. Some warriors attacks have also these kind of prerequisites, but quite less than assassins.
- To chain your attacks in a certain order. This is, I think, where the assassins are so weak. If only one of your attack is catched by diversion/diversion shot/etc..., this is the end. If you miss, same thing.

That's my point of view, but as assassins require so much prerequisites to deal effectively their damage, I think they will be easily screwed up in serious PvP.

All of those counters will also stop a warrior in his tracks. Does that mean warriors are not used? If the other team feels like they have to shut me down, I'll run one as a primary just so they can expend energy trying to stop me. Why will they try and stop me? Because I am a threat. The possibility exists of course that they won't bother shutting me down because I cannot do anything worth stopping, but that remains to be seen.

SparhawkJC · Mar 26, 2006, 03:54 PM // 15:54

A good assassin will let his/her team engage the opposition first and then jump in and "assassinate" a monk or other squishie. Oh and a combo that doesn't need your target to be under any conditions at all? Unsuspecting Strike+Fox Fangs+Critical Strike+Moebius Strike. Shadow Step in, throw down that combo and you've got a dead squishie. You need to stop thinking of assassins as a w/mo replacement. Anyone who plays an assassin like that isn't going to be very successful. They are as I remember someone else saying, "a glass cannon." Sure they're as fragile as rangers, but they shouldn't be going after warriors in the first place. Unless you're Nika, then you can go after anyone you please.

Sidra · Mar 26, 2006, 04:05 PM // 16:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

I seriously don't see assassins primary going far in PvP. They rock in PVE, where hex removal, condition removal, enchant removal, e-denial and anti-warr conditions are rare to inexistant. But in PvP... A mesmer/curse necro eat them at breakfast. As well as a blinding Ele. Or guardian on your lead attack.
Only time will prove me wrong or right, but seriously, there are simply too many ways IMO to mitigate them efficiently.
To deal their damage (not so awesome sorry, a pure axe warrior will do the same), they have THREE prerequisites:
- To have energy. It seems stupid as warrs need also adrenalin, but AD is by far easier to have and more difficult to loose than energy. If you miss an attack you skip a shot of AD, if you miss an assassin attack you loose your energy wether it succeeds or not. An assassin hexed by spirit shackles is reduced to nothing.
- Conditions/hex prerequisites. Most assassins attacks need your target to be affected by some condition. Some warriors attacks have also these kind of prerequisites, but quite less than assassins.
- To chain your attacks in a certain order. This is, I think, where the assassins are so weak. If only one of your attack is catched by diversion/diversion shot/etc..., this is the end. If you miss, same thing.

That's my point of view, but as assassins require so much prerequisites to deal effectively their damage, I think they will be easily screwed up in serious PvP.

Completely wrong. If you can take out the mesmer/necros fast enough they'll not have a complete chance at destorying you. Also, the build i use doesn't need ANY prerequisite conditions besides the combo attack thing. I find that it works incredibally well in PvP. Have you experimented with anything yet?

glountz · Mar 26, 2006, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sidra

Completely wrong. If you can take out the mesmer/necros fast enough they'll not have a complete chance at destorying you. Also, the build i use doesn't need ANY prerequisite conditions besides the combo attack thing. I find that it works incredibally well in PvP. Have you experimented with anything yet?

Yes, I love the assassin and played around a lot, especially with Temple Strike which stay as, to my mind, the best assassin's elite skill.
The thing is that you can't shut down a mesmer before he shut you down. Most combos work on conditions chains (if hexed then crippled if crippled then etc...) A simple Mend ailment screw it up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banebow

All of those counters will also stop a warrior in his tracks

No. Assassins are screwed up by conventionnal warrior hate.
But they are also shut down by many additionnal ways warriors don't suffer from. E-denial, for example. Devastating on a Assassin, annoyance on a Warrior. Attack skill disabling. Annoyance for warriors, chain combo destroying for an assassin. If a warrior miss one of his attack skill, he can often chain other ones without problems. You miss your Eviscerate? No problem, Penetrating and Executionner's are here. You miss your Black Mantis? Forget about your Temple Strike.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banebow

Oh and a combo that doesn't need your target to be under any conditions at all? Unsuspecting Strike+Fox Fangs+Critical Strike+Moebius Strike. Shadow Step in, throw down that combo and you've got a dead squishie. You need to stop thinking of assassins as a w/mo replacement.

A clumsiness/blind/distortion/guardian/even lightning javelin in your 5 attack skill combo and you have a dead Assassin. And I don't think assassins as a w/mo replacement, please.

SparhawkJC · Mar 26, 2006, 04:48 PM // 16:48

First of all, if an assassin misses his/her attack that doesn't make that assassin dead. What kills the assassin is the player's stupidity in sitting there wondering why their combo of death got disrupted and then eating an eviscerate in the face.

Also why does everyone cite Black Mantis Thrust as the lead attack that all assassins use? Unsuspecting strike, Jagged Strike and Leaping Mantis Sting are all much better lead attacks. So what if I miss? I'll retreat and start it up again in ten seconds or less, depending on skill recharge. That's without even mentioning way of the fox which only costs 5 energy, 3 second recharge, and makes sure your next attack can't miss for 10-30 seconds.

Having their attacks be energy based also has its advantages. The main one is that they don't have to charge up their adrenaline to set up their spike.

The assassin class isn't as bad as you think it is, but it also isn't overpowered either. Critical Strikes is one of the best primary attributes in the game, only bested by expertise. The only way to balance the killing power of the assassin was to make their survivability about the same as rangers.

Sidra · Mar 26, 2006, 05:28 PM // 17:28

+1 on Sparhawk. I'll say it again- There are definetely powerful builds that have NO NEED for previous conditions. I'm not sure if you realized that. Mesmers will not shut you down so easily if you lay down at least your first three hits of the combo and then run away once they start trying to degen you. I only lose to mesmers around 25-35% of the time. I don't know why nobody seems to be realizing that there are other ways to be effective besides psuedo-tanking which people seem to be obsessed with >.<

Banebow · Mar 26, 2006, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

The thing is that you can't shut down a mesmer before he shut you down.

Most mesmers have better things to do than make you their plaything, like shut down your mesmers. Three hits later they might know what happened, but at that point it is to late.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

Attack skill disabling. Annoyance for warriors, chain combo destroying for an assassin.

What do you plan to spike with while eviscerate recharges from diversion? Just because you can use the other skills does not mean the effect of a locked attack is merely annoying. Now, you are correct that an assassin suffers more from this, but I do wonder why you are using your skills through diversion in the first place.

I did not write your third quote by the way.

LaserLight · Mar 26, 2006, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Alright, so...just because the Assassin can be shut down by all sorts of means makes it a lousy class?

Uh-uh honey, no. As Banebow said, I'm content with them expending all sorts of resources and brain sweat stopping me, because then that means that they're not expending those resources and brain sweat stopping someone else. Because, see, if they don't shut me down, I'm going to be one of the most dangerous characters on the board. Dagger Mastery is vicious now, and can easily compete with and even exceed Axe Warr damage. And Warriors aren't half as mobile as Assassins are.

Yes, Assassins are both offensively and defensively fragile. This bites. However, they are capable of damage well in excess of just about anything else. That and they can cause more Conditions quicker than any other char on the board, and even if those Conditions are stripped away seconds later, guess what? The enemy had to expend resources to do it, and given the Assassin's Conditioning capability, probably a good deal of them.

As for long attack streams being a liability...I don't see many Warriors with less than four attack skills. Yeah, they don't have to chain them, but then they don't have a class of skills that clones itself with every use. Dual Attacks hit twice, and with some Dual Attacks, that is some serious pain. As has been stated, Blades of Steel can hit for insane amounts of damage, and Death Blossom and Critical Strike are pretty vicious too. Only Warrior skill I know of that doubles itself up is Hundred Blades, and that's a weak Elite.

It takes a different mindset to successfully play an Assassin. It's more like working a Ranger than working a Warrior to me. You can dole out some evil damage, but you better hope no one notices you doing it. Which happens more often than one would expect. And unlike either Warriors or Rangers, Assassins have a lovely offensive/defensive move called Viper's Defense, as well as several other skills designed to mess with people's heads while saving the Assassin's rear.

To answer the inevitable argument: yes, if you're running away you're not actively contributing to victory. However, if you run away and the enemy chases you, you've just pulled one of their guys away from the main battle. if that main guy was a Warrior, you've traded what is probably a secondary offense on your side for a primary offense on the enemy's side. And if you bolt and the enemy doesn't chase you, well then you're free to heal yourself, recharge, and swoop back into battle with a vengeance.

Stick and move. Story of an Assassin's life, people. These guys are the ultimate ToO hunters, and are easily serious threats on any battlefield for the simple fact that anyone who can hit that hard is a threat on the battlefield.

Oh, and just to note: all those things people already do to counter the Warrior-counters? They work on Assassins too XP.

Anyways. All my ramblings aside, quit thinking in Prophecies terms! Factions will release and offer whole new ways of doing things. Yes, in Prophecies Warriors and Monks were the only things that mattered. The Mesmers played with each other, the Necromancers tried to Weaken the Warriors, the Monks worked madly to keep everyone alive, and Els and Rangers were left almost entirely out in the cold. But in Factions, things are different. New skills, new professions, new combinations. Teams running two Warriors and two Monks, which is fairly standard, have four slots for swing characters. In Factions it was an Orders Necromancer, a Dom mesmer, a Wardmaiden or Blinding El, and a build specific. In Factions, who knows? I certainly think that Assassins will find their place, just like everyone else did.

So stop dogging about how Assassins are sooo inferior to Warriors and start looking at what they can do. Then you'll start to see what the rest of us do.

Sidra · Mar 26, 2006, 10:46 PM // 22:46

I found myself liking and adapting to Factions MUCH easier than I ever did to Prophecies. I just don't get how people pull the stuff they do in a COMRPG. I agree with everything Laser has said. If you can't take your Prophecies builds being messed up by the game, than don't play or adapt yourself, because a-net will not halt itself for you just because you are "leet"; I compare the assassin affectionately to the mosquito, who buzzes in, drops some diseases, and gets out of there, and if its a smart enough mosquito, stays alive. Be the mosquito. *completely fades out and starts mumbling to himself about animal instincts and primal callings*

Warcheif_Jonval · Mar 28, 2006, 07:27 AM // 07:27

Also, in PvE (where i live pretty much), i tanked often as my Assasin. in the preview, Flashing Blades, Shadow Refuge and ether feast (combined with the massive energy regen from my criticals) kept me alive through most battles.

Assasins can, although not in uber terms like a warrior can, tank effectively for notible amounts of time.