Curse

Peewee · Mar 31, 2006, 11:49 AM // 11:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by dreamhunk

anything doing more damage than a fire class should be nerfed.

So thats warriors, lightning, degeneration..... the list goes on and on and on.

Meteor shower is gaurenteed dmg, SS is not. Secondly it is KD, which is invaluable. SS can be removed *shock horror!* but is is fairly powerful, perhaps overpowered. Knock the recharge up a little, increase nrgt cost to 25, or drop dmg down a little, and its fine.

JR · Mar 31, 2006, 11:56 AM // 11:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peewee

Meteor shower is gaurenteed dmg, SS is not.

Meteor Shower, and most Fire AoE skills are beaten by a simple but effective combination: Your W,A,S and D keys.

Pi_Numurian · Mar 31, 2006, 01:01 PM // 13:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by LouAl

I know that some people (Avarre) have very strong views on this but I wanted to compare them and get feedback from everyone.

I will be comparing at 16 point att lvl

SS
Affects: Target foe and all adjacent foes
Trigger: Attack or skill use
Cost: 15e
Cast: 2 sec
Cool: 10 sec
Duration: 21 sec
Single foe damage: 37 per hit, DoT 584 (assuming continuous attacks at 1.33 attacks per second)
Multi-foe damage: 37 per hit*(number of adjacent foes), DoT......lots... vs 2 foes: 1168, vs 3 foes: 1752, etc

Emp
Affects: Target foe
Trigger: Attack
Cost: 10e
Cast: 2 sec
Cool: 10 sec
Duration: 21 sec
Single foe damage: 31 per hit, DoT 489 (assuming continuous attacks at 1.33 attacks per second)
Multi-foe damage: none

The similarities:
Recharge
Cast time
Cooldown
Duration

The differences:
Elite (SS) vs. Non-elite (Emp)
Cost: SS is 5 more energy
Damage vs single foe: SS is 6 more per hit
Damage vs multiple foes: SS is infintitely better (literally).

Multiple hexed targets: If you take into consideration that after 10 seconds a second hex could be applied (empathy or ss) to a second foe the differences are staggeringly huge.
Against 3 foes the difference in damage for the first 10 seconds are 602 more damage with SS in the second 10 seconds the difference is 1204 more from SS.

Over the duration of the hex SS will deal ~1800 more damage than empathy (assuming one hex applied at 0 time and one applied at 10 sec). I know that this is over simplified, but the numbers are close to accurate (I did not take into account cast times in the DoT).

So, using SS, for an extra 5 energy and the use of an elite slot you will get an extra 285 dmg vs a single foe and an extra 1800 dmg against 3 foes over the 21 second duration.

This does not even take into account that a necor could use Awaken the Blood to boost duration to 22 seconds and dmg per hit to 41, or that SS triggers when a target atttacks OR uses a skill while empathy is atack only.

Is SS overpowered? Is Empathy underpowered? SS is basically, as Avarre (I think) said, "Empathy on Steroids" so why is it a Necor Curse? or reverse that, Empathy is basically a weak SS so why is it a Mesmer Domination spell?

Discuss.

EDIT:

To Add in Meteor Shower
Affects: Target Foes Location and all foes adjacent to that location - KD + dmg
Trigger: Being in or adjacent to that location
Cost:25e (exhastion causing)
Cast:5 sec
Cool:60 sec
Duration: 9 sec
Single foe damage: 119 dmg + KD every 3 sec, DoT: 357 dmg + 3 KD's
Multi-foe damage: 119 + KD every 3 sec*(number of foes in location/adjacent to location), vs 2 foes: 714 dmg +6 KD's, vs 3 foes: 1071 dmg + 9 KD's, etc

The value of KD is debatable, but is it worth the loss in dmg, exhaustion, cast time, AND recharge? If you echo/glyph your MS your KD's become much more valuable but is it worth the energy cost? A'Echo is 15e (could use glyph of lesser energy) + 1st MS at 25e causing exhaustion + 2nd MS (could use glyph of energy) = at a minimum 35 e with 25 of that causing exhaustion (I may have missed something there but I think the costs are correct), and could only be used in this way once every 60 seconds.

SS is better because Empathy is just like half of spiteful spirit

LightningHell · Mar 31, 2006, 01:49 PM // 13:49

No ****, but SS is Necro and Elite, which actually...balances out.

bu11z3y3 · Apr 03, 2006, 01:26 PM // 13:26

the biggest difference in my opinion is that SS also triggers with spells, wich empathy doesnt do...

wich basically means SS can be more of an all round curse that can, for example, dmg warriors or deal with the fast healing of a monk.

Sofia Sofia Sofia · Apr 04, 2006, 11:45 PM // 23:45

I think the balance between the two spell is perfect.

Empathy is a nice spell to casually toss around to mess with warriors, but SS is a more serious thing you really have to watch for.

Warriors almost always go for targets in pairs or even more. So the surround damage comes in handy. Then they hit Frenzy, and then the SS is devastating. Some warriors attack through it cause they either trust their monks or they just don't notice things.

Basically, SS is a role, a job, Empathy is part of something bigger than itself, so it's not an elite.

LouAl · Apr 06, 2006, 11:58 PM // 23:58

I haven't looked in here for a while...

I guess the point I was trying to make is that Empathy and SS cost almost the same, have the same cast times, and have the same recharge (and yes I know they are from different professions...), but SS for 5e more will do an outrageous amount of damage when compared to its weak little brother(empathy). Also, a target under empathy can still cast while a target under SS cannot attack or use a skill...so they can't do anything but stand or run unless they want to take damage.

@ sofia x3
Why is that a good balance? Aren't you saying that they are balance well because you don't really have to watch out for Empathy (more casual) where as you don't want to mess around with SS (more serious).

The difference I am seeing is that for 10e you can hex 1 warrior with empathy and hurt that warrior only but for 15e you can hex 1 warrior with SS and it will hurt any ally near that warrior.

So....the elite status and extra 5e of SS is worth more damage per activation and damage to all adjacent allies of that foe

It seems out of balance to me. The examples I gave of other Elite vs non-elite skills I think illustrate this well (what does it matter if they are from different professions, they are essentially the same skill except that one is vastly more powerful than the other)

JR · Apr 07, 2006, 09:19 AM // 09:19

Spitefull Spirit on a caster is really not worth the effort. Generally they aren't going to be casting enough to make it do worthwhile damage.

Cirian · Apr 07, 2006, 10:28 AM // 10:28

For me as a necro and a mesmer player, I find the single target nature and recharge times on the mesmer skills the most frustrating.

Empathy is a great example of a hex that could be 5e and 5s recharge, and suddenly it could be trivial to hex multiple attackers. In this respect it could be compared to Enfeeble, and work well as a Parasitic Bond-like cover hex or as a cheap hex to pair with Shatter Delusions.

LouAl · Apr 07, 2006, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Spitefull Spirit on a caster is really not worth the effort. Generally they aren't going to be casting enough to make it do worthwhile damage.

If you mean an elementalist, you are probably right (usually), but I get royally screwed when my mesmer gets hexed with SS. I tend to have FC fairly high and use quite a few skills in a short period of time. If I have SS on me I can't even use distortion without causing damage to myself and my team. I think the same is true with monks, they are casting enough that it can create real problems...

Not really my point though because empathy is fairly useless on most caster types (even more so than SS).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cirian

For me as a necro and a mesmer player, I find the single target nature and recharge times on the mesmer skills the most frustrating.

Empathy is a great example of a hex that could be 5e and 5s recharge, and suddenly it could be trivial to hex multiple attackers. In this respect it could be compared to Enfeeble, and work well as a Parasitic Bond-like cover hex or as a cheap hex to pair with Shatter Delusions.

It would make more sense to me if Empathy cost less (although it already does a hefty amount of damage per energy used, even if it is conditional) or if SS cost more/had a longer recharge.

I don't like to be the one who whips out the nerf bat, but it seems like the skill SS is quite overpowered (and probably linked to the wrong attribute, b ut that is an entirely different discussion).

What if... · Apr 10, 2006, 11:15 AM // 11:15

Really I don't see SS as a problem for mesmers either, it's just a matter of changing one's playing style to adapt to the situation. If one was to be caught with SS the obvious solution is the find the SS'er and kite randomly until it starts to wear off (this will also help you to avoid opportunistic warriors and rangers). Wait for the necro to try and re-appy it an then diversion (if you fast casting is high enough) or interupt it and bother him for a while. The only players who might have problems with SS are E-denial/Surger Mesmers who may not have a way to shut down the spell.

I realize this stratergy can't exist in a vacuum so if the team decides to SS you, it's probably because you're about to take a lot of damage and they don't want you defending/interrupting, but even then what's a 37-41 hit when compared to a 130 dmg hit from an air elementalist? I see SS more a mind-game skill than an actual threat to Mesmers, who really shouldn't be letting things like SS through anyway, but that's my opinion.

Pi_Numurian · Apr 10, 2006, 12:16 PM // 12:16

The way I see it. Empathy is kind of like the first step of SS

Mister Muhkuh · Apr 10, 2006, 01:15 PM // 13:15

ss is an elite and i think elites should have some kind of advantage to non-elite skills...

i think ss is very good for pve(fow- book trick, uw,sf- gear or keg trick), empathy maybe for pvp

every1 has to decide for himself whether to use empathy or ss(i prefer ss, even in pvp, coz i dont really need OoB coz i always have 8+ sould reaping)

Anarki · Apr 11, 2006, 01:58 PM // 13:58

You can't really compare SS to Empathy, because as previously said SS is AoE plus it triggers whenever foe does something, including using skills, Empathy works only against enemies that attack with their weapon.

Xpl0iter · Apr 13, 2006, 05:12 AM // 05:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Muhkuh

ss is an elite and i think elites should have some kind of advantage to non-elite skills...

i think ss is very good for pve(fow- book trick, uw,sf- gear or keg trick), empathy maybe for pvp

every1 has to decide for himself whether to use empathy or ss(i prefer ss, even in pvp, coz i dont really need OoB coz i always have 8+ sould reaping)

*chuckles at "some kind of advantage"
empathy has a damage which is nothing compared to that of an SS. People use Empathy only if they find some other elite needed to suppor ttheir build, mind you, includes the kind of damage they do. what i mean by "the kind of damage" is that, the damage could be spike, or could be a spam of elites along with regular skills supporting the build. Be that a player build, or a team build.

SS *is* for a fact, over powered. but like the person who mentioned this at first place said "another discussion thread would be suitable", i will end my post here.

Regardz
An Elementalist.

Murder In China · Apr 13, 2006, 08:14 AM // 08:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pi_Numurian

The way I see it. Empathy is kind of like the first step of SS

There's a huge gapping hole between Empathy and Spiteful Spirit =/

Angel Develin · Apr 13, 2006, 10:11 AM // 10:11

SS=Elite
Empathy=common
Energy surge =Elite

I think SS and ES (energy surge) are at the same lvl. the dmg they do is very high, I think Energy surge is a bit over powerd if used with Arcane Echo. At max they take (if used at the same time) 22-24 energy and do more then 180 dmg very fast, this is only from 1 player :O what if 2 players use it at the same target??? OMG and use Mind Wrack :S ouch......ouch

Xpl0iter · Apr 13, 2006, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angel Develin

SS=Elite
Empathy=common
Energy surge =Elite

I think SS and ES (energy surge) are at the same lvl. the dmg they do is very high, I think Energy surge is a bit over powerd if used with Arcane Echo. At max they take (if used at the same time) 22-24 energy and do more then 180 dmg very fast, this is only from 1 player :O what if 2 players use it at the same target??? OMG and use Mind Wrack :S ouch......ouch

heh
let me see, you think e-surge is more powerful than SS? sure, against one person, i might agree, but dude, look at SS compared to Empathy. Empathy triggers with an attack, not a spell, and definetly not an area damage. SS, oh well, talk about being overpowered with arcane echo and SS being used.
Oh, was it a necro who was bragging to me about doing more damage in-game with SS when compared to my entire skill set? ah well. Best skill for eles elite are not the damage ones, but the energy management ones. I mean seriously, who would keep a damaging elite for ele attributes over energy management when we have such a high energy usage at all times? Pushed down to regular skills, and depending on not elites to damage is pathetic. Ether prodigy and ele attune, one gives exhaustion, and one has a huge recharge time. big deal. SS is spamable as well as empathy, but SS gets triggered with no matter what you do while damaging foes adjacent to you. now "that's" overpowered compared to empathy and definetly better than esurge for pve.
Oh, and e-surge spiking is quite known for its damaging capabilities. an extremely good elite available to mesmers.
Regardz
An Elementalist.

Cirian · Apr 13, 2006, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Energy Surge isn't nearly as good in PvE, but then SS isn't what I'd call great in PvP either...

SS rocks in PvE because it's aoe AND triggers off so much as a fart... I mean, even if it didn't trigger off attacks, it would still trigger on using any skill - be that a shout, spell, stance, signet, glyph... anything! Mobs are just too dumb to know better, unlike humans. Well, most humans... Mesmers probably just see SS as a great opportunity to do 126 chaos damage with a smartly placed Shatter Hex bomb

Ention · Apr 13, 2006, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cirian

Energy Surge isn't nearly as good in PvE, but then SS isn't what I'd call great in PvP either...

SS rocks in PvE because it's aoe AND triggers off so much as a fart... I mean, even if it didn't trigger off attacks, it would still trigger on using any skill - be that a shout, spell, stance, signet, glyph... anything! Mobs are just too dumb to know better, unlike humans. Well, most humans... Mesmers probably just see SS as a great opportunity to do 126 chaos damage with a smartly placed Shatter Hex bomb

Empathy+Backfire+SS TOUCH ME AND YOU DIE!

oucheez...and also, not only is the SS powerful, but incredibly fun, in my experiences.