Curse

Rajamic · Jun 23, 2005, 09:28 AM // 09:28

Would be a useful spell if they changed it to do damage when they use a skill.

CKaz · Jun 23, 2005, 07:56 PM // 19:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rajamic

Would be a useful spell if they changed it to do damage when they use a skill.

I'm not sure you're talking about Wastrels.. the whole point is damage when NOT doing something in time..

and again PvE it's tough to make a GREAT argument with mob AI
(as I believe its built in -spam whatever you can as often as can) but PvP?

someone drops it on you, you DON'T have 3 seconds to act but actually only 3 SECONDS TO COMPLETE A SKILL. Noticed that when mobs used it on my e/me with some big casters :b lol. Now warrior no problem, some other classes a fair bit of choices. But a lot of spells take a second or two - were you ready to go? huh?? huh?? it pushes you..

So you get past one.. hey here it is again.. dang that ones recharging..
I'll try this one.. oohh slow cast *hit for damage* energy now lower..

Ahh crap AGAIN?? dang not ready/low E rush or *hit for damage*
Ahh CMON AGAIN?? ...

at 5 energy and a mesmers talent for getting energy back only fast casters/skill spammers (ie warrior/monk) might get off scott free

for that, backfire/empathy/arcane conundrum/migrain etc..

and as mentioned, make them cast slower, more powerful..

arredondo · Jun 24, 2005, 02:51 AM // 02:51

Excellent post CKaz. I also noticed the same thing in that the spell needed to complete itself, but I'm using it differently than with backfire.

However, if you DO match it with backfire turned on first, it still can be more powerful a combination than people give it credit for. Take the info mentioned above about the skill needing to finish if WW is to be dispelled, then add the little acknowledged fact that Backfire does NOT dispell when it is triggered!

If someone casts a non anti-hex spell while under backfire, they will get tagged for the big damage, and Backfire remains on them to snuff out the next spell too. This is GREAT because if you cast BF, WW and they don't get their spell off in time (say it is Balthazar's Spirit, a 2 sec. spell), they will get hit by both Wastrel's Worry and then Backfire for combo 172 damage!

Not only that, Backfire remains on for another snuff opportunity if you cast WW again. Let's say this time they are able to stop WW this second time, Backfire takes another 119 chunk (at Lvl 12) for a total of 291 damage in that 10 second span. During that time you've casted three times and used only 25E. From that, you can build around it if you're going for max damage.

Now, let's say you began that skirmish with some nice Degen spells before Backfire. For my MeNe, I can open up with Life Siphon and Life Transfer (E) for -10 Degen (and +10 Regen, heh) in under 4 seconds of casting time (with decent FC points).

Next might be Archane Conumdrum to slow down their casts, which helps the WW/BF combo muy mucho. Now I can cast Backfire, Wastrel's Worry. If they both connect along with the Degen, things are looking pretty good (450 at least).

In this unbalanced but damaging build, you can also add to the tail end of this attack sequence by casting the 2nd WW before Backfire ends. Regardless of it connecting or not, have Energy Burn ready for a quick 80 point hit.

All of this is some good damage in 15 seconds or so (500+ in the best of scenarios), Nothing game breaking by any means, but on a Monk, at least he keeps his eyes on his own butt instead of helping others. Els will react with concern as well I'd bet.

You don't want to use all of these options I'd bet because you'd be too focused on one play strategy. Also, anti-hex builds and the like can hurt it a bit, but this BF/WW combo is unique in that it attacks people who try to attack it, lol. Not perfect, but far from worthless.

AristonCC · Jun 24, 2005, 03:55 AM // 03:55

I love using this skill along with Shatter Hex. Instead of wasting a Mesmer hex against the enemy, you can throw on WW and then immediately fire off Shatter Hex causing at least some damage.

StandardAI · Jun 24, 2005, 04:47 AM // 04:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

uh..what? Do a better job of trolling please.

Dreamsmith: I'll go into detail here.

Backfire:
For 10 seconds, whenever target foe casts a spell that foe takes 35-119 damage.
Energy Cost
15
Casting Time
3 seconds
Recharge Time
20 seconds

Wastrel's Worry
Description
After 3 seconds, target foe takes 8-53 damage. Wastrel's Worry ends prematurely if that foe uses a skill.
Energy Cost
5
Casting Time
1/4 seconds
Recharge Time
1 seconds

If you apply both to the same target you've just changed the conditional damage on both spells into guaranteed damage on the conditions of the opponent not using a skill. The opponent can break WW by using a non-spell ability and wait out BF while you continue to try and pile on another WW.

But assuming they didnt, you've just spent 20 energy and 4.75 seconds of casting time to give the opponent a choice of(at 12 dom): 53 damage every 3 seconds or 119 damage every x+.75 seconds where x is the casting time. I'm sure anyone would pick taking ~17.6 dps over at best 119 dps.

Wastrels Worry is horrible in energy denial builds because now you're locking into one target on the hopes that they can do nothing. And a guy that can do nothing is out of the picture so throwing around 5 energy hexes just doesn't help anymore. It's the same reason Mind Wrack, and all those other Elementalist Mind skills are terrible.

Actually you lay wastrels over it to make sure that backfire DOES NOT get removed from remove hex, obviously. The point here is to stop a monk from healing for 10 seconds, allowing the rest of your team to kill the target.

Jun 24, 2005, 05:36 AM // 05:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by AristonCC

I love using this skill along with Shatter Hex. Instead of wasting a Mesmer hex against the enemy, you can throw on WW and then immediately fire off Shatter Hex causing at least some damage.

Shatter Hex is target ally.

Standard AI: If you want to cover backfire why not use a better hex to cover it with. Or instead of trying to protect it, why not just get rid of their hex removal options by targetting the people removing hexes.

Pharalon · Jun 24, 2005, 06:42 AM // 06:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

why not just get rid of their hex removal options by targetting the people removing hexes.

Indeed. Hex removals are some of the juciest targets for interrupts a monk will carry. 2-3 second cast, and you know that backfire will draw it out almost without fail. Why waste time and energy buffering an already suppressed opponent with a useless hex when you could be using the interrupt of your choice (concussion shot in particular on the long casts) on a fresh target?

You may be able to do something with WW in combo with Soul Barbs, but even then I'd guess it would be very marginal. I'm yet to see a solid argument in favour fo this skill. Incidental damage to suppressed targets doesn't excite me overly much.

silvertemplar · Jun 24, 2005, 02:19 PM // 14:19

Quote:

You could probably do at least the same amount of damage with a max damage cane within 3 seconds as you can with WW, assuming it activates.

Exactly. I can't see the point of using Wastrels for it's damage capabilities [because i'm pretty sure there are spells [i.e. Flare/Lightning Strike?] that can do CERTAIN damage to the same extend [if not even more...]. Being on the receiving end, having WW on me, will certainly not change my behaviour out of fear of taking the extra damage...

So in short, i would only use WW combined with Shatter Delusions , or i would use it to cover up another hex which i don't want to be removed instantly [as was mentioned above] In both cases the actual damage of WW does not even come into the equation, just a bonus if it does go off.

Itbegins · Jun 24, 2005, 09:25 PM // 21:25

ok guys ima give a hint for pvp that owns and pve i should get money for this i have full details on how it works but to get it started....Soul Barbs....Wastrels worry

Cymmina · Jun 25, 2005, 02:14 PM // 14:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itbegins

ok guys ima give a hint for pvp that owns and pve i should get money for this i have full details on how it works but to get it started....Soul Barbs....Wastrels worry

Have you actually tried this or is this TheoryCraft? I thought the same thing. Used Soul Barbs and loaded up on hexes. I even tried spamming WW to trigger SB more often. It was the least impressive damage I've ever seen.

Itbegins · Jun 26, 2005, 05:50 PM // 17:50

yeap doing mesmer domination with second class necro owns with this.

monk
soul barb, backfire, wastrel, wastrel, wastrel, wastrel Shatter delusion. Dead..........

Warrior
Soul barb,empathy, wastrel, wastrel, wastrel, wastrel, shatter delusion...Dead

Jijimuge · Jun 26, 2005, 08:01 PM // 20:01

ItBegins, you do realise that Shatter Delusions has been changed, don't you?

It used to be "Shatter all mesmer hexes", but now it only shatters the most recent one.

Also, each copy of wastrel's will not stack on top of the previous one, so all you're doing is refreshing the hex or resinstating it if it's either ended with damage or ended by virtue of the target using a skill. Because wastrel's lasts 3 seconds, I can't see you managing to have 4 wastrel's inflict damage before backfire expires unless the target is stupid enough to repeatedly cast through backfire.

If you're going mesmer primary, then the max skill you can have in curses is 12 (barring a +1 20% of the time, but we'll ignore that).

That means that when each hex is cast it'll inflict 27 extra damage....which isn't great for spike damage. Soul barbs has another use, which is to discourage someone from casting enchantments on themself. Because the damage is so low, I don't really think it does this very well, either, mind you. A better option vs enchantments is, of course, the enchantment removal spells, which often have an upside, such as shatter enchantment inflicting fairly hefty damage.

Remember also that wastrel's takes a few seconds to fire off its damage so chain casting 4 wastrel's is unlikely to be very effective.

arredondo · Jun 26, 2005, 09:47 PM // 21:47

I have a build that I will test based on his WW setup. If you misunderstand what Itbegins is describing, I try to expand on it here:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=25610

elenna · Jun 28, 2005, 04:59 PM // 16:59

This spell totally confuses me. I have it cast on me all the time by mobs and no matter what I do (cast a spell, do nothing, or just attack with my wand) I take damage. I've noticed that when I use a spell the spell ends prematurely, but I still take the damage. Is this broken?

arredondo · Jun 28, 2005, 05:24 PM // 17:24

If you used a spell and were hurt, Backfire is what did the damage, not WW.

elenna · Jun 28, 2005, 05:26 PM // 17:26

But is says right next to the damage that it was Wastrel's Worry that did it. It is those Reed Stalkers right outside Temple of Ages that cast it on me. I haven't seen them cast Backfire.

arredondo · Jun 28, 2005, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Then the problem is the cast time (and your input timing) of the skill you used. It has to completely finish casting to dispell WW. If you started a 2-second spell when WW activation time is down to 1 second, you'll get smacked.

elenna · Jun 28, 2005, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Well, that makes sense. I didn't think about the cast time. I'll experiment with it more tonight to see if that makes a difference.

Thanks.

Mercury Angel · Jul 05, 2005, 04:24 AM // 04:24

Using Wastrel's Worry happily now after all again.

Hex Breaker bait.

Hex Breaker was improved with release, or possibly prior to that, not really sure, and is cheap and effective to use. Many mesmers start the battle with backfire, but if you do that against a Mo/Me, I highly doubt it's going to stick.

Many many people these days with Mesmer primary or secondary are packing Hex Breaker.

So I toss on Wastrel's Worry twice, once to check if they have it, and if so, to break the stance, and then once again to break the re-used stance, since it lasts so long they can recast it instantly after the first break.

And then it also does have its uses outside of that, even if limited, so I'm content.

Rajamic · Jul 05, 2005, 07:13 PM // 19:13

I was doing something similar to that last night. But I was using Arcane Conundrum as the test hex. If I happen to hit them where they have Hex Breaker up and recharged at the same time, this doesn't work. On the other hand, Conundrum is more useful for other purposes than Wastrel's.