Curse

SnoopJeDi · Apr 14, 2006, 03:29 AM // 03:29

A zealous bow just to upkeep barrage? I'd rather put a few points in expertise and get a vampiric string, to up my damage.

Carinae · Apr 14, 2006, 04:30 AM // 04:30

As far as Tombs goes, wouldn't a Deathbane grip be best?

LordMahal · Apr 14, 2006, 07:08 AM // 07:08

I dont get it... you want maximum damage and you dont use a short or horn bow? Why not? Horn has the 10% ap and short is faster. I could be wrong on all this of course.

XvArchonvX · Apr 14, 2006, 12:27 PM // 12:27

Ok, couple of things to address here. As for the last person that posted, a flatbow will do the most damage using barrage due to it's increased refire rate. It is proven that the refire rate of barrage is affected by the refire rate of the bow used. I cite the following link as proof:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...d.php?t=136832

As for bow strings, I am not sure what build most of yall run, but I have really never had energy problems using barrage and therefore can't find merit for the use of a zealous string.

Perhaps I can clarify my reasoning for considering this bow string by explaining the build I will use it with a bit more. I will be using this for imp and golem farming. The full explanation of the build can be found at the following link courtesy of Master Shira:

http://wiseelben.com/rangersbeacon/

Basically since I'm using balthazar's aura or essence bond, I regen energy almost faster than I can use it when I take dmg from multiple targets. Also since I use Live Vicariously along with several other healing skills, health and defense is not really an issue. The enemies I will be attacking will be stationary, so the flight time of arrows from a flatbow realy doesn't matter.

I know the suggested bow is a fiery bow, but I found that a fiery bow is only advantagous against golems, and that a vamp bow does more dmg against the imps.

There may be other times that I choose to use this bow, but the more I consider the use of the marks grip, the less I am leaning towards it's use.

Iskrah · Apr 14, 2006, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Ok, couple of things to address here. As for the last person that posted, a flatbow will do the most damage using barrage due to it's increased refire rate. It is proven that the refire rate of barrage is affected by the refire rate of the bow used. I cite the following link as proof:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...d.php?t=136832

That is bull. It's well known that the refiring rate, the motion rate and the arrow rate of the Short Bow is overall faster than the Flatbow (because of the arrow, the rest being equal). I can't see how it can be slower. It's more accurate and the motion is no different.

Quote:

As for bow strings, I am not sure what build most of yall run, but I have really never had energy problems using barrage and therefore can't find merit for the use of a zealous string.

That may be because you stick too much to Barrage and don't use anything else with it. Like Tiger's Fury. A Vamp is best, a Zealous to switch.

Jenosavel · Apr 14, 2006, 06:54 PM // 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskrah

That is bull. It's well known that the refiring rate, the motion rate and the arrow rate of the Short Bow is overall faster than the Flatbow (because of the arrow, the rest being equal). I can't see how it can be slower. It's more accurate and the motion is no different.

Actually, I don't think he meant to say that the flatbow was better than the shortbow, although that's the way it came off. The discrepancy which made the flatbow look better than the shortbow in the linked thread was undoubtedly due to human error. The refire rate of the short and flat bow are identical. The flight-time of the arrows has no impact on the refire rate, since your ranger doesn't sit there and wait for the arrow to land before starting to move on to the next one.

Quote:

That may be because you stick too much to Barrage and don't use anything else with it. Like Tiger's Fury.

Usually the point of Barrage builds is to just spam Barrage. It's about synergy, as other attack skills take away from Barrage's power. It's a similar matter with Tiger's Fury... from the linked thread:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Funny_Bunny

For those that run Increased Attack Speed, such as Tiger's Fury, in their Barrage builds, you gain an increase in SINGLE target damage per second, but you sacrifice your overall AoE damage potential. With a Flatbow/Shortbow, you fire every 1.33 seconds with Increased Attack Speed (total refiring time) Unfortunately, it does nothing to help with Barrage's recharge time, so you barrage, regular attack, barrage, regular attack, etc. Essentially, you Barrage every 2.66 seconds, instead of 2.2 seconds. It could work I suppose if you're interested in added SINGLE target DPS. Though you lose out a little on the AoE damage.

SnipiousMax · Apr 14, 2006, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenosavel

The discrepancy which made the flatbow look better than the shortbow in the linked thread was undoubtedly due to human error. The refire rate of the short and flat bow are identical.

Which I stated in the OP. Had I done more trials, the difference would have approached zero. But I felt the point was proven with the few I did make.

But seeing how Shortbow = Flatbow in fire rate, then other things need to be considered....Like Range.

Iskrah · Apr 14, 2006, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

But seeing how Shortbow = Flatbow in fire rate, then other things need to be considered....Like Range.

Or accuracy.

Iskrah · Apr 14, 2006, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenosavel

Usually the point of Barrage builds is to just spam Barrage. It's about synergy, as other attack skills take away from Barrage's power. It's a similar matter with Tiger's Fury... from the linked thread:

And this little bit of information is wrong too. With IAS, you can still spam Barrage every time, or else you just have TERRIBLE reflexes. There is no hurt from the refiring, and the motion is just going faster. Of course you don't gain as much, but you still gain some.

Iskrah · Apr 14, 2006, 08:56 PM // 20:56

BTW, sorry for the third post, but to come back on the discussion a bit before, Barrage is a GREAT way to gain back energy with a Zealous mod. It's not only to maintain it but also to be able to afford your interrupts or stances. And Judge's Insight, of course.

ubermancer · Apr 14, 2006, 08:57 PM // 20:57

First of all, that comment about the +1% (20% of the time) gave me a migraine. No joke. I just took some Ibuprofen. Please be more careful in what you post in the future.

Secondly, range is preferable to accuracy in this case, because if you needed to really speed up your attack speed, you could close in. Shortbows have average arc size (not the best!) and are therefor only a single step away from flatbows in arc size.

A flatbow can be used for higher DPS if you need to, by simply closing range, however you have the ability to stay out of dodge with a flatbow, and when soloing this is very important.

In high end PVE, you should never be scattering enemies. Its just that simple. A single AOE'r (an ele) is all you should have, and then the rest of the area damage dealers be either SS or Barrage. And if you have to scatter them, they should all be snared anyways so... whats it matter?

If I was to recommend a single bow type over all the others, itd be a flatbow..... for anything BUT interupting.

(my ranger usually uses a zealous flatbow of defense, utilizing frenzy and watch yourself. barrage, dual, barrage, penetrating, barrage starts to lay down the hurt pretty quick)

SnipiousMax · Apr 14, 2006, 09:10 PM // 21:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskrah

And this little bit of information is wrong too. With IAS, you can still spam Barrage every time, or else you just have TERRIBLE reflexes. There is no hurt from the refiring, and the motion is just going faster. Of course you don't gain as much, but you still gain some.

Barrage Spamming is limited by how fast barrage RECHARGES. The point made, was that this is a wasted skill if you are playing a barrage build. Even if you have it on, even though it doesn't neccesarily interrupt the timing of Barrage (though one could argue that it does), it doesn't add anything to the build. It doesn't give you the ability to fire off barrages any faster.

Iskrah · Apr 14, 2006, 10:43 PM // 22:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

Barrage Spamming is limited by how fast barrage RECHARGES. The point made, was that this is a wasted skill if you are playing a barrage build. Even if you have it on, even though it doesn't neccesarily interrupt the timing of Barrage (though one could argue that it does), it doesn't add anything to the build. It doesn't give you the ability to fire off barrages any faster.

It does. The motion pre-recharge goes faster. Barrage doesn't take always the same time to fire, and with an IAS, that part of the movement goes faster.

Am I clear? I'm talking about the time when your character moves and you're not waiting for Barrage to reload anymore.

Valerius · Apr 15, 2006, 12:23 AM // 00:23

it's been tested Iskrah... just cause' you appear to attack faster doesn't mean you are

Katari · Apr 15, 2006, 12:27 AM // 00:27

1. You hit the skill button
2. Your character draws the bow
3. Barrage fires and starts to recharge

Are you guys trying to argue that IAS dosn't speed up step 2, or am I missing something?

Iskrah · Apr 15, 2006, 02:32 AM // 02:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katari

1. You hit the skill button
2. Your character draws the bow
3. Barrage fires and starts to recharge

Are you guys trying to argue that IAS dosn't speed up step 2, or am I missing something?

They are. Which is complete non-sense and a pretty common mistake.

I can understand saying it's a marginal gain. But not denying it.

Jenosavel · Apr 15, 2006, 03:11 AM // 03:11

As I understood the other thread, yeah, that's what was being argued. It was put forth in the other thread that all bows have a universal 1.2 second draw time and that the only change in recharges is the time after that (.8 seconds in shortbow, etc). Mistakenly or not, this bled over to Tiger's Fury. If Tiger's Fury couldn't touch that 1.2 seconds, then it would offer no benefit to Barrage. Since I've never tested Barrage speeds myself before, I decided to do so and put the confusion here to rest.

I'm sorry to say that my above post was mistaken, as Tiger's Fury does benefit Barrage. The assumptions drawn in the other thread were very much mistaken.

First, I tested speeds with a shortbow. Averaging my trials together to help eliminate some human error (I did three trials except where stated otherwise), I came up with 28.3 seconds for 13 Barrages (yeah, somewhat arbitrary number there

), or 2.18 seconds per Barrage before Tiger's Fury.

With Tiger's Fury up, I was generally able to use Barrage every attack, however some normal attacks would slip in despite my best efforts. I even tried the button mashing route a couple of times to see if it made a difference, and it didn't. I usually had one or two normal shots slip in among my 13 Barrages. I ended up doing 6 trials to try and find a middle ground for how many normal shots would slip in, and the average came up with 25.1 seconds for 13 Barrages, or 1.93 seconds per Barrage. This is right around an 11.5% increase in attack speed. So while Tiger's Fury didn't hit its full 33% speed increase, it was still a noteable increase.

Then, I tried using a Hornbow to see how the numbers fair on the other end of the bow spectrum.

Before Tiger's Fury, I averaged 34.45 seconds for 13 Barrages, or 2.65 seconds per Barrage. With Tiger's Fury up, I averaged 26.18 seconds for 13 Barrages, or 2.01 seconds per Barrage. This is approximately a 24.2% increase in attack speed. While it still doesn't hit the full 33% increased attack speed, it doubles the increase of the Shortbow.

Of course, they say curiousity killed the cat and I really wonder if I'm not a cat sometimes.

So since there is a bigger benefit to Tiger's Fury for a Hornbow than a Shortbow, I had to see if this helped even the playing field for them at all (before considering all the flat buffs that will likely destroy that level playing field all over again). This, of course, requires figuring out DPS etc, which requires being absolutely certain of what the Hornbow's innate armor penetration is.

I tested it. It's 10%, spot on. (I was kinda hoping the rumors would be wrong, and it'd be 20 or something, but no such luck).

Then, comes the number crunching. Yippee! (again, bolded conlusion with the results at the bottom of the post)

I considered bows that were max damage, customized, and had the +15% boost in effect, vs level 20 AL 60 foes, and at a Marksmanship attribute of 16. I took into account the +17 damage per hit from Barrage, and the DPS when only able to hit 1 foe vs when able to hit a full 6.

Shortbow damage range: 29.27-54.65 crit: 77.28
15 * 1.2 * 1.15 * 2 ^ ((5 * 16 - 60) / 40) = 29.27
28 * 1.2 * 1.15 * 2 ^ ((5 * 16 - 60) / 40) = 54.65
28 * 1.2 * 1.15 * 2 ^ ((5 * 20 - 60) / 40) = 77.28
Hornbow damage range: 32.48-60.63 crit: 85.74
15 * 1.2 * 1.15 * 2 ^ ((5 * 16 - 54) / 40) = 32.48
28 * 1.2 * 1.15 * 2 ^ ((5 * 16 - 54) / 40) = 60.63
28 * 1.2 * 1.15 * 2 ^ ((5 * 20 - 54) / 40) = 85.74

Shortbow average damage per hit: 67.43
((29.27 + 54.65) / 2) * .76 + 77.28 * .24 + 17 = 67.43
Hornbow average damage per hit: 72.95
((32.48 + 60.63) / 2) * .76 + 85.74 * .24 + 17 = 72.95

Shortbow DPS vs 1 enemy: 34.93
67.43 / 1.93 = 34.93
Hornbow DPS vs 1 enemy: 36.29
72.96 / 2.01 = 36.29

Shortbow DPS vs 6 enemies: 209.62
67.43 * 6 / 1.93 = 209.62
Hornbow DPS vs 6 enemies: 217.76
72.95 * 6 / 2.01 = 217.76

So, if for whatever reason there are no buffs involved and you're using Tiger's Fury, a Hornbow will do better DPS than a Shortbow. Now to see just how bad the flat buffs kick the Hornbow back down. I'll consider the ranger being under Order of the Vampire at 16 Blood, RTW at 16 Marks, FW at 16 Marks, and Winnowing at 16 Wilderness (hey, might as well go all out, right?).

Shortbow average damage per hit: 115.43
67.43 + 16 + 10 + 11 + 11= 115.43
Hornbow average damage per hit: 120.95
72.95 + 16 + 10 + 11 + 11 = 120.95

Shortbow DPS vs 1 enemy: 59.80
115.43 / 1.93 = 59.80
Hornbow DPS vs 1 enemy: 60.17
120.95 / 2.01 = 60.17

Shortbow DPS vs 6 enemies: 358.84
115.43 * 6 / 1.93 = 358.84
Hornbow DPS vs 6 enemies: 361.04
120.95 * 6 / 2.01 = 361.04

Conclusion

Can someone check my math??

The Hornbow just came out better than the Shortbow on all fronts when Tiger's Fury enters the mix. I was very much not expecting that.

Before RTW and Order of the Vampire, the Shortbow's Barrage DPS ranged from 34.93 to 209.62 depending on how many enemies could be hit with it. The Hornbow got a range of 36.29 to 217.76. That's a difference of 1.36 to 8.14 in favor of the Hornbow.

When RTW, Order of the Vampire, FW, and Winnowing are all up the Shortbow's Barrage DPS ranged from 59.80 to 358.84 depending on how many enemies could be hit. The Hornbow got a range of 60.17 to 361.04. That's a difference of .37 to 2.2 in favor of the Hornbow.

So while flat buffs universally benefit the Shortbow more so than the Hornbow, it isn't enough to make up for the fact that Tiger's Fury benefits the Hornbow more than the Shortbow. When using Tiger's Fury and Barrage, the Hornbow is simply better.

I should come back and check out how the two compare under Tiger's Fury when we're not dealing with Barrage... but that's waiting for another time.

SnipiousMax · Apr 15, 2006, 03:42 AM // 03:42

That's it. I've been wrong twice about Barrage. I'm not trusting anything anymore....Jeno excluded of course.

I apologize for my Ignorance!

Iskrah · Apr 15, 2006, 04:14 AM // 04:14

No apologies needed Snipious, it's all in good spirit.
Thanks for the effort Jeno, your math seems correct for the most part, as i do get by experience those numbers for critical hits when using different bows. I may check some more later.

Can i throw my celebration party just now that i'm proven right?

Sidra · Apr 16, 2006, 12:22 PM // 12:22

I use a Zealous Horn Bow of Marksmanship and a Vampiric Horn Bow of Marksmanship when I do b/p runs in Tombs. I find them very likeable :-D.