Curse

lord_shar · Apr 15, 2006, 04:33 AM // 04:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spiteful Soul

I wouldn't be able to explain it to you cause I dont know the answer to that
either. Maybe because the Vilnar's set is two piece. A wand and a offhand.
And the Stave well it's one piece. All I can say using any of my staves I mention above . The +1 Curses kicks in alot more comparing to Vilnar's . Plus when I cast DE with the stave equiped. it hits up to 116 alot of times. I never saw that using the Vilnar.

Here is the answer: A 20% +1 curse device has the same odds of activating as any other 20% +1 curse device. The only component that matters in Vilnar's set is Vilnar's Glove since it alone carries the 20% +1 curse bonus. The Claw has a 20% faster casting speed accelerator, which doesn't influence Spiteful Spirit's displayed damage numbers.

What you described above is something called human perception, human observation, and human memory. While all three are related, the last item is notoriously unreliable. It would explain why you perceive the staff as activating more often even though this is mathematically untrue when tested over a large number of iterations. If you cast SS 1000 times, roughly ~200 of those casts will be a +1 curse level above normal, regardless of what +1 20% curse item you use, whether it be Vilnar's Glove or your collector's +1 curse-mod 20% staff.

Just the rules of probability and statistics, nothing more...

EDIT: Also, please don't take this as a flame. I agree that a 20/20 +1 curses staff is better than the default Vilnar's Claw/Glove combo, but not as good as a Vilnar's Glove with a +5>50 one hander with casting, recharge, or enchantment mod (e.g., HoD sword w/ 20% enchant pommel) since the latter yields +17 energy vs. the staff's +15.

xXa1 · Apr 15, 2006, 05:51 AM // 05:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by sno

For UW I take 3 sets:

Those are the best I've been able to find, but if anyone has anything better (and may be willing to sell) Please let me know

Also: for those using Villnars Claw, WHY DO YOU? The collectors curse truncheon is WAY better, since for SS, fast recharge is much more usable than fast cast.

Also, try to keep this thread on topic, for questions about the build itself please refer to the following thread:
Cerb's Ultimate SS/SV Guide

let me tell you why: Spinal Shivers, this skill is a staple on any decent and self-respecting SS necro and it requires cold damage to trigger the interrupt.

woe on the teams who face casters when the SS has spinal shivers but no cold damage weapon

lord_shar · Apr 15, 2006, 06:06 AM // 06:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by xXa1

let me tell you why: Spinal Shivers, this skill is a staple on any decent and self-respecting SS necro and it requires cold damage to trigger the interrupt.

woe on the teams who face casters when the SS has spinal shivers but no cold damage weapon

UW ss/sv nec's don't normally use spinal shivers.

xXa1 · Apr 15, 2006, 06:33 AM // 06:33

it's the main reason they use Villnar's irregardless of where they go.

lord_shar · Apr 15, 2006, 06:36 AM // 06:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by xXa1

it's the main reason they use Villnar's irregardless of where they go.

I only use the glove for the +1 curses and 20% faster skill recharge. The claw is generally useless for 2-man smite runs since only coldfires cast hexes on your necro.

xXa1 · Apr 15, 2006, 06:40 AM // 06:40

you're citing a specific map, he was asking why they use villnar's and that is the obvious reason it is used in general irregardless of where they go.

Spiteful Soul · Apr 15, 2006, 06:47 AM // 06:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

Here is the answer: A 20% +1 curse device has the same odds of activating as any other 20% +1 curse device. The only component that matters in Vilnar's set is Vilnar's Glove since it alone carries the 20% +1 curse bonus. The Claw has a 20% faster casting speed accelerator, which doesn't influence Spiteful Spirit's displayed damage numbers.

What you described above is something called human perception, human observation, and human memory. While all three are related, the last item is notoriously unreliable. It would explain why you perceive the staff as activating more often even though this is mathematically untrue when tested over a large number of iterations. If you cast SS 1000 times, roughly ~200 of those casts will be a +1 curse level above normal, regardless of what +1 20% curse item you use, whether it be Vilnar's Glove or your collector's +1 curse-mod 20% staff.

Just the rules of probability and statistics, nothing more...

EDIT: Also, please don't take this as a flame. I agree that a 20/20 +1 curses staff is better than the default Vilnar's Claw/Glove combo, but not as good as a Vilnar's Glove with a +5>50 one hander with casting, recharge, or enchantment mod (e.g., HoD sword w/ 20% enchant pommel) since the latter yields +17 energy vs. the staff's +15.

I understand what you are saying buy still not True Bro....
I went into FoW to test out both weapons. With Vilnar's glove equiped. I was only dealing 41-42 dmg using atb+SS. And 64-74 dmg in DE. With my collector's stave. I was dealing 41-43 dmg using atb+SS. And 74-117 dmg using DE. Remeber, one thing the staves kicks in alot. I was farming FoW for 3hrs.

sno · Apr 15, 2006, 07:34 AM // 07:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spiteful Soul

With Vilnar's glove equiped. I was only dealing 41-42 dmg using atb+SS. And 64-74 dmg in DE. With my collector's stave. I was dealing 41-43 dmg using atb+SS. And 74-117 dmg using DE. Remeber, one thing the staves kicks in alot. I was farming FoW for 3hrs.

First of all, you will never deal 42 damage.

16 curses: 37 damage (possible normally, no ATB)
17 curses: 39 damage (possible 20% of the time, using villnars glove and no ATB)
18 curses: 41 damage (possible normally, with ATB)
19 curses: 43 damage (possible 20% of the time, using villnars glove and ATB)

Do you see a pattern? It's quite clear, villnars glove will increase the damage per attack by 2 each time it triggers (20% of the time, 1 of every 5 casts.)

Bel Ebih · Apr 15, 2006, 08:42 AM // 08:42

What I use:

The staff is my main weapon and the Trunch+Cesta is for energy management and to trigger Shivers when necessary. Much better than Vilnar's set imo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xXa1

let me tell you why: Spinal Shivers, this skill is a staple on any decent and self-respecting SS necro and it requires cold damage to trigger the interrupt.

woe on the teams who face casters when the SS has spinal shivers but no cold damage weapon

Not reason enough to use Vilnar's set. We can have multiple weapon sets to switch to for a reason. I would much rather switch to my collector's Trunch when necessary that have an inferior main weapon.

xXa1 · Apr 15, 2006, 08:47 AM // 08:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bel Ebih

What I use:

The staff is my main weapon and the Trunch+Cesta is for energy management and to trigger Shivers when necessary. Much better than Vilnar's set imo.

Not reason enough to use Vilnar's set. We can have multiple weapon sets to switch to for a reason. I would much rather switch to my collector's Trunch when necessary that have an inferior main weapon.

exactly, even a pre-sear water wand will do the trick for shivers. however, it is the main reason people opt for Villnar's set and that is what im pointing out.

The Fenixxor · Apr 15, 2006, 08:53 AM // 08:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spiteful Soul

I wouldn't be able to explain it to you cause I dont know the answer to that
either. Maybe because the Vilnar's set is two piece. A wand and a offhand.
And the Stave well it's one piece. All I can say using any of my staves I mention above . The +1 Curses kicks in alot more comparing to Vilnar's . Plus when I cast DE with the stave equiped. it hits up to 116 alot of times. I never saw that using the Vilnar.

Quit while your not too far behind

Spiteful Soul · Apr 15, 2006, 10:44 AM // 10:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by sno

First of all, you will never deal 42 damage.

16 curses: 37 damage (possible normally, no ATB)
17 curses: 39 damage (possible 20% of the time, using villnars glove and no ATB)
18 curses: 41 damage (possible normally, with ATB)
19 curses: 43 damage (possible 20% of the time, using villnars glove and ATB)

Do you see a pattern? It's quite clear, villnars glove will increase the damage per attack by 2 each time it triggers (20% of the time, 1 of every 5 casts.)

Yes....thx for the post. those are the numbers I do for SS. I thought I've seen 42 before cause not. But that V glove doesn't work for me. I hardly ever see 43. With useing a stave with Curses +1 19% or 20% I see 43 alot for some
reason.

lord_shar · Apr 15, 2006, 02:24 PM // 14:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by xXa1

you're citing a specific map, he was asking why they use villnar's and that is the obvious reason it is used in general irregardless of where they go.

The reason I cited this map is because of Sno's header:

Quote:

Originally Posted by sno

For UW I take 3 sets:
...<SNIP>...

Sno was addressing only UW SS necro's using a full Vilnar's set and made no reference to any other sub-types.

lord_shar · Apr 15, 2006, 02:31 PM // 14:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spiteful Soul

Yes....thx for the post. those are the numbers I do for SS. I thought I've seen 42 before cause not. But that V glove doesn't work for me. I hardly ever see 43. With useing a stave with Curses +1 19% or 20% I see 43 alot for some
reason.

Instead of relying on human memory, try pencil and paper. Every time you cast SS, write down the damage number output (37, 39, 41, 43, etc). Once you've cast at least 100 SS's with your staff (you'll get there fast), try it again with Vilnar's Glove and any other 1-hand primary weapon. If you can carry out this experiment and show a significant damage advantage using either specific weapon, then you will prove your point. Hint: it could happen, but odds diminish as your sampling rate approaching infinity.

JR · Apr 24, 2006, 02:19 PM // 14:19

Spitefull, I am afraid you are wrong.

A 20% chance bonus from one item is EXACTLY THE SAME as a 20% chance from another. There is no random undocumented difference between any two. What you are implying is utterly ridiculous, and any more extraneous posts debating the matter will be deleted.

lennymon · Apr 26, 2006, 08:13 PM // 20:13

admittedly when I wield a -staff- without +1 curses and vilnars glove I never see the +1 kick in :P
For UW I use a req 8 illusion cane with +4^50 and 19% half recharge time for curses and vilnars glove. But its really just for the fact that I love the cane, its hardly better than the collector curse wand.