Curse

Cherng Butter · May 04, 2006, 10:27 PM // 22:27

with the "nerfing" of the esurge trinity, i found myself compelled to follow a new route for my mesmer, so i came up with this

Mantra of Recovery (e)
Energy Burn
Shame
Feedback
Energy Tap
Drain Enchantment
Blackout
Res Sig/Ressurect

11 Fast Casting (10+1)
14 Domination (10+4)
12 Inspiration (11+1)

I'm not entirely sure if this is any more (or less) effective than energy surge, energy burn, and SoW, but it seems logical...

You can keep up MoR 80% of the time, effectively doubling your monk hate. Energy burn every 10 seconds, shame and feedback every 15, tap and drain every 13, etc. I opted for black out instead of diversion because BO is less energy intensive, and double spells isn't exactly healthy for your energy (though inspiration helps).

I can't decide whether speccing in inspiration or domination would yield greater results...loosing 1 second on BO, and 1 energy on burn and shame for 1 energy on tap, feedback, and drain...hmm.

well, even if it's completely useless, at least it is a little less monotonous than e-surge to play...XD

Zoo X · May 05, 2006, 09:24 AM // 09:24

surge mesmers are not as efective as before, even been a mesmer by heart, i am glad about it, however, good mesmers are still able to do as much harm as before, however is easier to find a good monk rather than a good mesmer, almost90% of the surge mesmers i found at arenas while playing a monk are anything but good mesmers

PS i miss diversion at your build

SziP · May 05, 2006, 11:45 AM // 11:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zoo X

surge mesmers are not as efective as before, even been a mesmer by heart, i am glad about it, however, good mesmers are still able to do as much harm as before, however is easier to find a good monk rather than a good mesmer, almost90% of the surge mesmers i found at arenas while playing a monk are anything but good mesmers

PS i miss diversion at your build

E-Surge mesmers are still very effective no matter what, builds change over time and new, better ones come out, i still see people spamming LF E-Denial Mesmer for balanced....etc. There are new elites in Factions that i saw groups asking mesmers to use.

shoot n loot · May 05, 2006, 12:52 PM // 12:52

heres an idea, use stolen speed then just use all the annoying ass mesmer interrupts, trust me its easy.. specially if you train on a RANGER where you have to wait a sec before interrupt hits.. i love my mesmer =)

Cherng Butter · May 06, 2006, 12:42 AM // 00:42

i wasn't trying to imply that esurge was completely out of the picture, just trying to make something that might be more effective, as e-denial spells have long-ish cast times? so how does my build compare? statistically it reigns supreme, but i'm not sure if its practical

i replaced BO with diversion cause i had a hard time spamming it with all the other spells im spamming XD...diversion never caught on with me anyway

shoot, if i was going interrupts i would do migraine, i'm not sure exactly the point of stolen speed as mesmers cast fast anyway

Dragannia · May 06, 2006, 03:41 AM // 03:41

Stolen Speed has a 6 second recharge; spam it on multiple targets to interrupt them all.

Mental Leteci · May 06, 2006, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Drain mesmers aren't nerfed at all. They're totally the same,if you just put some more effort and check all the skills mesmers have you'll see what I mean. It is true,some skills got nerfed,but the whole point of drain mesmers is draining and not skills which are used to drain. I hope you understood me.

Evilsod · May 06, 2006, 08:39 PM // 20:39

E-surge was made anything but worse. It was made more powerful imo.

The 2 less energy means nothing when your surging monks with barely any anyway. But the 2 extra damage can make a difference.

Target has 7 energy,
Current E-Surge = 7 x 10 = 70 AoE damage
Old E-surge = 7 x 8 = 56 AoE damage

More damage for less energy, and lets face it monks rarely have energy.

Cherng Butter · May 06, 2006, 10:17 PM // 22:17

right now i'm running

MoR
Eburn
Shame
Etap
SoW
Remove Hex/Diversion
Drain Enchant
Res Sig

i plan to spec inspiration once i install factions and unlock feedback

If MoR was up 100% of the time and i casted spells the instant they were ready, i would drain 162-ish energy a minute (using feedback instead of SoW)...esurgers drain 64 energy a minute, not counting aoe effect

i can maintain MoR 80% of the time, so lets lower e-drain to 150 energy a minute (might be more or less, i'm too lazy to actually calculate)

I'm not sure where e-surge beats MoR e-denial actually, besides simplicity and the aoe damage (and face it, 80 damage to a couple people isnt exactly the end of the world)...and my energy reserves last forever!

Kariston The Swift · May 06, 2006, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Diversion is your best friend.

Eaimirth Etaivella · May 06, 2006, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Going to need some major e to keep up diversion...

Themis · May 06, 2006, 11:34 PM // 23:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cherng Butter

If MoR was up 100% of the time and i casted spells the instant they were ready, i would drain 162-ish energy a minute (using feedback instead of SoW)...esurgers drain 64 energy a minute, not counting aoe effect

i can maintain MoR 80% of the time, so lets lower e-drain to 150 energy a minute (might be more or less, i'm too lazy to actually calculate)

I'm sorry, this is not quite accurate. Let me explain :

Your character gets 80 energy per minute (4>>>>).

Assuming you have 14-domination and 13-inspiration.

MoR + eBurn + eTap + Feedback + Shame
cost you exactly 74 energy/minute with a 10% recharge bonus. This takes into account your energy gain from eTap, but doesn't take into account neither MoR recharge bonus nor energy drained through Shame.
Since you keep MoR up 80% of the time, then uninterruptible combo will cost you about 120 energy. In other words, you'll be OOE in less than 90 seconds.
Using this combo (and assuming your target has always an enchantment for Feedback) you deny from target 58 energy per minute with MoR down and 92 energy/minute with MoR up (without Shame). In other words you deny 0.78 energy per energy spent.

Let's compare this to the eSurge denial :

eSurge + eBurn + SoW + Shame
cost 80 energy/minute with a 20% recharge bonus (you can use 20% since this is all on domination line). This doesn't take into account energy drained through Shame.
Using this combo you deny from target 64 energy per minute (without Shame). So, you deny 0.8 energy per energy spent. And you're never out-of-energy.

In my opinion, that's the real problem of MoR : it has a disastrous effect on energy cost on the domination/illusion line. It's good only for inspiration.

Cherng Butter · May 07, 2006, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Themis, right now i'm using Signet of Weariness in place of Feedback because i havent installed factions, but keep in mind that i gain 10-11 energy from drain enchantment every 13 seconds. With my current build (with sig) i have never once run out of energy, even when facing e-denial (in both TA and GVG)

i also expect to spec in inspiration once i unlock feedback, so thats even more energy for me right there (might replace diversion for cry of frustration, anti-spike skill)

Themis · May 07, 2006, 06:11 PM // 18:11

No doubt. But let me explain a bit further :

Combo MoR+eBurn+eTap+SoW+Shame consumes 54 energy per minute with a 10% bonus without MoR bonus (without taking into account eventual benefits from Shame).
So this combo with MoR up consumes about 80 energy/min.

What i meant, in fact, is that SoW prevents you from running OOE.
In my opînion, this won't be true anymore if you replace SoW with Feedback.

Cherng Butter · May 07, 2006, 09:16 PM // 21:16

If i use feedback, i will spec in inspiration instead of domination (14 inspiration)

this would give me +11 net from drain enchant every 13 seconds, and +9 net from energy tap every 13 seconds, so +20 every 13 seconds

energy burn * 6 /minute + feedback * 4 /minute + MoR * 3 /minute = 130 energy spent a minute

60/15( lets just say i can use etap and drain every 15 seconds) * 20 = 80 energy gained a minute (this doesnt account for shame, but lets just say shame costs 0 net energy)

130-80 = 50 net energy spent a minute

i may have calculated wrong, but that certainly seems like a lot of leftover energy (not counting rezzing allies, removing hexes/interrupting spikes), especially because ive given a little leeway for my emanagement skills

*note, this is considering MoR is up 100% of the time, but if spell usage and energy gain is both increased, it should even out anyway

EDIT: I might scrap feedback for diversion for diversion lock, but that would need some blood ritual help XD

Eaimirth Etaivella · May 07, 2006, 10:25 PM // 22:25

Back onto diversion; no way do you have enough energy to pull it off.

Themis · May 07, 2006, 11:53 PM // 23:53

Well Cherng, problem you'll face if you have 14 in inspiration and a fair 12 in fastCast (to justify MoR) is that there's not much left for Domination (Shame and eBurn), let along secondary prof skill points... if needed. Which will (in my opinion) lead you to the conclusion that efficiency of eBurn and Shame is not justified anymore.

In other words, this build becomes cheaper in energy but probably less efficient in straight e-Denial, since the only "real" e-denial is eTap. But, after all, isn't debuffing the hidden side of eDenial ?

Another difficulty is that two skills depend on target's enchantments, which will oblige you to switch targets constantly (you should probably consider switching wher MoR is down) seeking for nearby targets with enchantments. This may become an increased difficulty when MoR is up, since "time is energy" !

I'm not saying that it's not an interesting build, but perhaps you should consider dropping Domination alltogether (consider Ether Lord?). I tried it, and i came to this conclusion. But i agree, you should give it a try by yourself, perhaps it fits your gamestyle.

Mental Leteci · May 08, 2006, 12:46 AM // 00:46

You should go back to this IMO:
Stop calling drain mesmers 'Surge Mesmers'. They're called that way because most of the people is using surge as their elite,but if you go back where we started you'll see that the point of having a drain mesmer in your team is to drain. It doesn't matter which way you're gonna do it. Since Mental Block invented surge mesmers I can tell you that there are better combinations than that.

Cherng Butter · May 08, 2006, 09:00 PM // 21:00

the break point for energy burn (8 v. 7) and shame (13 v. 12) is 13 domination, so using a superior inspiration and major domination would put you at the highest values for every skill, making you a ENERGY EATING MONSTER

(10+4) Inpiration
(11+2) Domination
(10+1) Fast Casting

MoR, Shame, eburn, etap, feedback, drain enchant, remove hex/diversion, resurrect

hale staff of fortitude, sup vigor = comfortable 465 hp

i find that monks usually have enchantments on them, given the number and effectiveness of boon prots (before i get to them, of course XD), and if i have to search for an enchanted person i could always e-den them instead...

mental, if i referred to drain mesmers as surgers im sorry, im just trying to compare my build to the metagame (if it even is that anymore, i'm not sure)

*i realized that MoR has no effect on spell recharge if its activated after the spell is cast, so i suppose i have to watch out for that, maybe cast diversion in that 4 second time period...

twicky_kid · May 08, 2006, 11:59 PM // 23:59

I would add ether feast to this. Under MoR its a 4 second recharge, self heal, and very cheap.