Curse

Bugeater · Feb 22, 2006, 02:48 PM // 14:48

There's a lot of talk about balance with the World Campionships being over. The one skill that has people talking a lot on both sides of the nerf fence is Res Sig. I'll lay out as plainly as I can why I think the sig is unbalanced as it stands. One of the end purposes to game balance is to encourage variety in builds, both team and character. Without variety a game ultimately degenerates into a glorified game of "heads or tails".

A skill is unbalanced when it gives your team such and advantage that whatever build you come up with, you have to find a way to work that skill in. Of all the viable team builds in all levels of the game (and there are a lot, tally them up if you wish), there are none where a res sig doesn't give an advantage over at least one skill that would take its place. Most of those team builds have not one, two or thee copies of the skill, but four or more. In general if your character is not packing a res sig, you're either a monk, a flagger, or a liability to your team.

Is there any other skill in the game that comes any where near the effect that a res sig has? It virutally negates the efforts most or all of your opponents made while killing the player it's used on. Imagine a Monk skill called "Reversal of Time". When you cast it on a party member, all effects that they encountered for the past 15 seconds are negated. They have all the energy, hp, hexes, enchants, conditions... everything is exactly the same for them as it was 15 seconds ago. It's like an after-the-fact interrupt for anything that's happened to them - and it's available only to monks.

Is this skill balanced? It's a counter for all other skills and effects. If this skill entered the game we'd see a huge surge in monks because of this power. To "balance" the skill, ANet decides to allow all classes to have access to it. So now we don't see a million monks bringing this skill, we just see everyone bringing the skill. The effect is that almost everyone's skill bar has gotten one slot smaller and everyone has this overpowered skill.

Is that so much different from what we currently see with res sig?

I'm not suggesting a way to balance the skill, I'm just trying to open a dialog about whether the skill is unbalanced. It seems that people have come to think of a res sig as an inherent part of every build instead of realizing that it's one of around 140 skills you can put on your bar. I think the game would benefit if the choice of bringing a res sig was an actual choice instead of simply remembering it.

Sk8tborderx · Feb 22, 2006, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Of course it will be in everyones skillbar, only monks have hard rez. Rez sig is perfectly balanced the way it is and I don't understand why so many people want it nerfed.

The Real Roy Keane · Feb 22, 2006, 04:24 PM // 16:24

It's difficult to deem what's 'Balanced' and what's not.
Isuppose the fact that it's universal;can be used by anyone,makes it balanced in one sense. It does favour Warrior classes more however: use it on a warrior, you have a full strenth ally back from the dead, firing off adrenal skills. Use it on a monk and you have a an easy target,capable of casting one or two 5 energy spells before being beaten back into the ground. It's often said that the Ressurection Signet is an IWAY team's most powerful weapon.
To amend this arguable imbalance though, you'd have to tweak the skill so that it not only brings you back with full health, but also full energy. And in GvG and alter maps,where Morale Boosts are frequent, that'd be just plain unfair..
Anet, you decide what's best for us.

Bugeater · Feb 22, 2006, 11:02 PM // 23:02

We have 2 arguments so far. The first: "I don't understand why so many people want it nerfed" - does anyone mind if I ignore that one?

The second is "the fact that it's universal;can be used by anyone,makes it balanced in one sense." At first this seems to make sense. I mean if everyone has access to the skill, no one can claim an unfair advantage over anyone else right? But that doesn't at all solve the problem of a degenerate game invironment. It just means that instead of everyone playing the one class that has the overpowered skill, everyone plays whatever class they want and takes the overpowered skill. I agree it's less of an impact, but it's degenerate none the less.

That one skill is powerfully unbalanced, meaning that everyone has to take it. If there were a couple more such skills, everyone would take those too. No one would have an unfair advantage over everyone else, but there would be 3 skills you knew everyone had and 5 that they actually chose to take. You can see how an unbalanced skill, even if everyone has access to it, is still unbalanced and hurts the game overall.

I'm not sure I'm convinced they even need to nerf it. I mean the game is still pretty good even with 7 skills to choose, and they certainly have more important balance issues to worry about, but that doesn't change the fact that res sig is the single most unbalanced skill in the game.

kahn of war · Feb 23, 2006, 07:35 AM // 07:35

Basically what I can see from this is some people want it nerfed and some don't. I on one hand don't want it nerfed but on the other hand can see the other point of view about it being powerful.

Look at it this way, if it was nerfed what could they do to it? Give it an energy cost....Longer casting time....Res the person with only 50% hp and energy. All these things would pretty much make res signet pointless.

Look at it as it is now. 2 second casting time....You only get to use it once...The person who was ressed still has a DP...They are brought back right next to the battle they died in so they are likely to die again.

See my point? This skill doesn't need nerfing before its fine as it is, there are enough draw backs from its current state without a good seeing to with the nerfing stick.

Vermilion Okeanos · Feb 23, 2006, 09:38 AM // 09:38

Personally, I would like to see this "Ressurection Signet" not dominating all form of ressurection in "PvP".

In PvE, everyone know rebirth is godly. In PvP, there was only ONE time in the old tomb, where I was able to use it and turn the entire battle upside down.

However, even if it does get nerf really badly (cast speed mainly)... what will happen? Fast Cast Mesemer will dominate the ressurection, no doubt. Still domination of one way to play ressurection in the end. So what would be the purpose of balance for variety?

Now if they done nothing to the cast speed, but lower the health/energy... The nerf serve almost no purpose for vareity, it will still be the most widely use res.

If the recharge upon morale boost is removed, the biggest effect is on GvG strategy, then HA, then PvE. However, anywhere else... it won't matter. If there are more limitation/situation needed to recharge a ressurection signet (such as it take only positive morale Boost to recharge, or it require morale boost twice to recharge), things might then get more interesting, for a short while before this topic come up again.

If anything, I call for a buff in other ressurection skills.

I too, would like to see some changes to the way of ressurection as well.

Scown-dog · Feb 26, 2006, 05:19 AM // 05:19

I believe res sig should recharge over time....something very slow though.

zoozoc · Feb 26, 2006, 06:27 AM // 06:27

well i dont think they should nerf it in any way, but i think they should change it so that it favors casters more then warriors and rangers. Maybe change it to rez with 50% health and 50% energy or if thats to low of health 75% health and 50% energy. That way a caster, after being rezzed, can actually do something to help his/her team, which is what the warrior can already and to some degree the ranger.

Former Ruling · Feb 27, 2006, 02:44 PM // 14:44

So your idea of Unbalanced is if every build works it in?

How many rangers work in Troll Unguent? All of them basically...Is Troll Unguent unbalanced?

Wow.

Lady Lozza · Feb 27, 2006, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Bugeater, should only monks take res? What happens if they die? You call them noob and rage quit?
Res sig is a monk's godsend because they know if they die and the tank doesn't - which happens quite frequently - then the party isn't royally screwed.

Bugeater · Feb 27, 2006, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Former Ruling

So your idea of Unbalanced is if every build works it in?

If every build that has access to a certain skill has that skill, then yeah, you're looking at a very good candidate for an unbalanced skill. Especially when a thought isn't even given to whether or not it should be on the bar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Former Ruling

How many rangers work in Troll Unguent? All of them basically...Is Troll Unguent unbalanced?

I'd say closer to 60 or 70 percent. Check out the ranger thread or search for ranger builds and see how many don't carry it. Also watch some high level GvG and HA - it's definately there, but it's not on every ranger's bar. Then look at the same builds for res sig: around 95%. Troll Unguent unbalanced? Not terribly, but a minor nerf wouldn't hurt the game at all (or a buff to competing skills).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Lozza

Bugeater, should only monks take res? What happens if they die? You call them noob and rage quit?
Res sig is a monk's godsend because they know if they die and the tank doesn't - which happens quite frequently - then the party isn't royally screwed.

I'm not sure what your point is. You're arguing that Res Sig is a powerful skill that's able to pull the party out of a nasty situation they got themselves into - isn't that kind of what I'm saying? No one's saying that only monks should take res. And I'm not proposing that ANet should get rid of the Res Sig or nerf it to the point where no one ever takes it. But I don't think a minor nerf would be out of line. The res sig is such an integral part of how the game works, ANet would have to be pretty ballsy to make much of a change to it.

What I would like to see is some thought going towards whether or not it should be included in a build. As it stands you put it on your bar and don't look back. I'd like people to have to think, "I really want Skill X in my build - I think it will benefit the team more than another res sig"

sh4ft3d · Feb 28, 2006, 03:35 AM // 03:35

LOL. Res sig being nerfed... If EVERYONE has the skill, then why is it a problem? Are you considering making it "easily interrupted" or have an 8 second cast time?
If a skill is available to everyone, and everyone uses it, than it isnt imbalanced.

zoozoc · Feb 28, 2006, 06:14 AM // 06:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by sh4ft3d

LOL. Res sig being nerfed... If EVERYONE has the skill, then why is it a problem? Are you considering making it "easily interrupted" or have an 8 second cast time?
If a skill is available to everyone, and everyone uses it, than it isnt imbalanced.

If anyone read my post, i suggested making more caster friendly for that very reason, its the ONLY way to rez anyone thats reasonable. Monks are ok to rez with it since they have OoB, but still having to rely on another skill is sorta besides the point of a rez, any other caster that dosnt have a very good energy regen skill is sorta worthless for a long period of time. It isnt a nerf, its simply a change in the rez, of course if they make another rez like sig that solves this problem, that would work too.

Thrawn Foxheed · Feb 28, 2006, 10:02 AM // 10:02

<-- Points at avatar.

J/k. I also don't see why it's being called for a nerf. Everyone has access to this skill. It is not affected by attributes or other effects from a certain class e.g Fast Casting or Expertise.

I guess it is really a debate as to how many people would rather bring a skill to help themselves, or bring one skill that practically brings another seven back into play.

Cirian · Feb 28, 2006, 01:51 PM // 13:51

I have a feeling Res Sig was a thing for PvE so that people didn't need a monk around to recover from a death in the party.

With ritualist rezzes on the way, there will be a host of rezzing skills overshadowed by Rez Sig the way it stands.

Any /Ri or Mo would be able to rez in theory, so maybe the universal Rez Sig should be reworked as a PvE (or PvP) rez of last resort?

Bugeater · Feb 28, 2006, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by sh4ft3d

If a skill is available to everyone, and everyone uses it, than it isnt imbalanced.

Already addressed in the fourth post in the thread. It would be good if you have something to support your statement or or something new to bring to the table, but just stating "LOL" followed by something that's already been said doesn't really help refine the discussion any further.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thrawn Foxheed

I guess it is really a debate as to how many people would rather bring a skill to help themselves, or bring one skill that practically brings another seven back into play.

Your're totally right. And not only another seven skills, but another person as well. If your teammate is worth a damn that's better than seven skills. And everyone realizes that which is why everyone brings a sig, yet for some reason can't come to grips with how powerful the skill really is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zoozoc

If anyone read my post, i suggested making more caster friendly for that very reason...It isnt a nerf, its simply a change in the rez, of course if they make another rez like sig that solves this problem, that would work too.

While that does help solve the issue that res sig is more advantagous to non-energy reliant classes (which is another imbalance entirely), it wouldn't at all change the fact that the res sig would still be on everyone's bar. You'd just target different party members when you used it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cirian

With ritualist rezzes on the way, there will be a host of rezzing skills overshadowed by Rez Sig the way it stands.

Unfortunately this is true. We'll have to see what the final versions of these skills looks like, but if they're on par with monk reses then they will hardly have an effect.

sh4ft3d · Feb 28, 2006, 03:07 PM // 15:07

The res sig is not overpowered. Its a one time use, unless you get morale, which makes it a pretty OK skill in terms of a res. It CAN be interrupted, CAN be disabled, and of course you can always kill the person using it before it finishes. The last option is not always possible, but very feasible. Mesmers can prevent people from using signets, rust makes them take 3 times as long.... Its just that people dont actually try to counter ressing with a sig. Monk resses are not frequently used, because they can be interrupted by a standard skill set. The other resses need buffs, but the res sig does not need a nerf, plain and simple.

wsmcasey · Feb 28, 2006, 03:46 PM // 15:46

I wish that all characters just had a built in "one time rez function" so I could get the damn rez sig off my skill bar. Sure would make my character builds more versatile.

kdhoney44 · Feb 28, 2006, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by sh4ft3d

The res sig is not overpowered. Its a one time use, unless you get morale, which makes it a pretty OK skill in terms of a res. It CAN be interrupted, CAN be disabled, and of course you can always kill the person using it before it finishes. The last option is not always possible, but very feasible. Mesmers can prevent people from using signets, rust makes them take 3 times as long.... Its just that people dont actually try to counter ressing with a sig. Monk resses are not frequently used, because they can be interrupted by a standard skill set. The other resses need buffs, but the res sig does not need a nerf, plain and simple.

I totally agree with this statement. I play a pvp mesmer and know that I can counter (and often do) rez sigs. As also said, an elementalist can slow it down and a ranger can itnerupt it or even stop the use of one with frozen soil. A warrior can interupt with axe or hammer skills. So since the skill can be countered by many classes, I would say that it's really not unbalanced. Its really just a matter of whether or not you would rather bring more dmg skills to fight foes that can be brought back to life or bring one skill and take the time to try and stop that rez from being used. This is really a matter of making a good build to counter it and still be able to carry necessary skills rather than nerfing a universal skill that can sometimes be pivotal to other areas of the game.

Bugeater · Feb 28, 2006, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by sh4ft3d

The res sig is not overpowered. ... It CAN be interrupted, CAN be disabled, and of course you can always kill the person using it before it finishes.

Thanks for presenting an argument. The gist of what you're saying is that if a skill can be countered (even easily countered) then it's inherently balanced and not overpowered. This argument addresses a fundamental principal in game balance, and though it's been hashed and rehashed since before Guild Wars was even a thought in the back of Mike O'Brien's head, I'll give you a brief outline in GW terms.

Basically, in order to avoid a degenerate environment the power of a skill needs to be balanced in the absence of counters. If a skill is so powerful that the most reasonable response to it is to prevent it from executing then you've produced a game environment where all players are required to prepare the skill, prepare the counter, or both. Regardless of the side their on, the choices of the players have diminished.

In fact an overpowered, counterable skill that's available to everyone has the secondary degenerate effect of requiring more people to bring a counter as well as the original skill.

Check out Tom Cadwell's article on GameDev.net or pretty much any of the articles on David Sirlin's site for some light reading.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sh4ft3d

Its a one time use, unless you get morale, which makes it a pretty OK skill in terms of a res.

Whether you realize it or not, you've hit on one of the most important aspects of the res sig. Unless you're talking about 4v4 Arenas or parts of PvE where bosses are non-existent it's not a one time use. Not at all. The strategic elements involved in getting/preventing a moral boost for the single purpose of recharging the teams res sigs are not trivial. While some of the details on how a moral boost is awarded are sketchy (killing the enemy Hero at the forefront), res sig recharge adds a lot to the game and would be especially necessary should the sig get a bit of a power tweak.