Curse

Hidden Prayers · Feb 09, 2006, 05:25 AM // 05:25

Ah there's one, though I actually got the idea of playing puppeteer with your party members with those monk res skills.

"The Necro giveth, and the Necro taketh away"

Soul Reaping would be nice if you toyed with your party members, they just may not have as much fun as i would...

Any others, i was thinking more a long the line of effective healing or protecting.
I think going as far as adding smiting prayers to a MM build is a stretch, but it could happen

BBoy_Manchild · Feb 09, 2006, 08:04 AM // 08:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darr

I love my N/R minon master.

Animate Bone Fiend
Favorable Winds &/or Winnowing
Healing Spring

FTW!

FAVORABLE WINDS DOES NOT EFFECT FIENDS i cannot say this enough

Samueldg · Feb 09, 2006, 08:29 AM // 08:29

you know... with 16 death, blood of the master, and veritas you shouldnt NEED further healing on minions since your making more from bodies anyway..

even in tough spots Ive had no problem maintaining fiends.. generally I try and keep using fresh corpses for more minions.. with a decent soulreaping amount ive never had issue with energy either..

I even play about with my n/r and use odd stuff because well theres room in my skillbar...

for a decent MM you need essentually three skills freeing up FIVE for whatever you want..

Id thought about orders but like spirits the minions get no benifit from either.. SO
may as well toss on SS spinal shivers or whatever for fun..

using death magic soley gets kinda boring to me anyway and well sometimes your minions get blasted in certain places... (series of meteor storm from hydras outside ember.. stupid fiends...)

even when REALLY bored Ill pack dust trap on my n/r for melee monsters who break aggro on a tank etc etc..

but my point is with 16 death.. blood of the master and veritas are plenty.. trying to monk more life in a minion that WILL degen and WILL give you ene back when it pops seems kind of a waste... I wont use heal area on my monk.. why would I use it on my necro..

if your having problems keeping an army up with 16 death /BOTM and veritas I dont think heal area is going to help you much..

basically IMO make your secondary something fun...

sparks · Feb 09, 2006, 01:12 PM // 13:12

Well I have tried the veratas and glymp and still once I minion reaches some
magical number he is going to die...NO MATTER WHAT
I have seen one with 50% health get heal area to 100% and VS and health
goes down like crazy.

SO as usual Anet has put in crap code to make sure you can't keep them going.
WHY?
who knows with those guys.
kinda stupid that 100% health and +10 hp regen and their health goes down?

so it won't matter if you are M or R or whatever secondary.
with this stuff built in you can't win

sparks

Carinae · Feb 09, 2006, 01:57 PM // 13:57

If you're really determined, N/Mo can keep a minion alive forever. It's not really practical, but it can be done.

BBoy_Manchild · Feb 09, 2006, 02:41 PM // 14:41

it can be done, but your moving like 5 steps inbetween VS/BotM/heal area take you like 5 hours to do a oro run
the real trick is keeping them alive the longest without it hindering your movement and slowing down the team, im usually closer to the front then the bonder monk with like 8-9 fiends trailing me

bobrath · Feb 09, 2006, 04:29 PM // 16:29

I don't know how many "experienced" groups have kicked me before starting a farming run because I'm a N/R minion master. There's this wonderful urban myth that only N/Mos can be the best mms.... I can understand keeping our army/self alive a bit longer, but if you could have a few less minions but doing more damage - isn't that faster?

Winnowing makes all minions better.
Healing Spring won't heal enemies.
Serpents Quickness overcomes the delay in cranking out minions (as long as you don't inadvertently sac too low!)
Troll Unguent makes you self sustaning.

When I run oro, I let minons die during the longer runs cause I only keep VS up. Those few that make it are enough to get my army cranking along again. How many times have folks had to wait for the MM to catch up? Not in groups I'm in.

I'm sure there are other areas out there where you have a limited number of bodies and will need to keep your army alive as long as possible... for those a N/Mo might be a better idea, esp since you can bring vengence along. But comeon folks, N/R has so much more to offer for the current green farming scene.

Nessaja · Feb 09, 2006, 07:26 PM // 19:26

I'm going against the flow here by saying that a MM who uses their monk secondary, is worse then a necro that doesn't.

Quite simply put - first things first, your job is to make minions, and keep them alive, nothing else. Don't try to be a healer, you're ineffective at that.

Secondly;

You need OoB to be a decent minion master - many people will say *but that's what soul reaping is for - why yes, ofcourse, but your minions arent supposed to die a lot if you want to rate yourself a good minionmaster. In order to achieve this you need near endless energy, and a balance of OoB and soulreaping gives this. And also, you actualy have the energy to use blood of the master - which is just as effective as heal area, unless you devote so much points into heal area that you don't have any energy management.

Bringing Heal Area is 1. Not energy sufficient, 2. makes you put points in healing while there's already a shortage in attribute points and 3. takes atleast 1 skillslot.

The ONLY exception here is if you got a BiP necro, otherwise, a Monk secondary is not needed, and if you ask me, even worse.

Carinae · Feb 09, 2006, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nessaja

I'm going against the flow here by saying that a MM who uses their monk secondary, is worse then a necro that doesn't.

Totally incorrect. There's just enough points to go around.

Blood Magic: 9
Death Magic: 16
Soul Reaping: 9
Healing: 7

Vampiric Gaze
Offering of Blood {elite}
Horrors
Fiends
Verata's Sacrifice
Blood of the Master
Heal Area
Vengeance

VG does 43 points of startup damage/self-heal.
HA is a 100-point heal.
OoB is a ~48-point sacrifice.
BotM is a ~48-point sacrifice.
VS is a ~72-point sacrifice.

Without a strong self-heal, you will quickly sacrifice yourself to death or be a major drain on the monk.

Vilaptca · Feb 09, 2006, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samueldg

you know... with 16 death, blood of the master, and veritas you shouldnt NEED further healing on minions since your making more from bodies anyway..

even in tough spots Ive had no problem maintaining fiends.. generally I try and keep using fresh corpses for more minions.. with a decent soulreaping amount ive never had issue with energy either..

I even play about with my n/r and use odd stuff because well theres room in my skillbar...

for a decent MM you need essentually three skills freeing up FIVE for whatever you want..

Id thought about orders but like spirits the minions get no benifit from either.. SO
may as well toss on SS spinal shivers or whatever for fun..

using death magic soley gets kinda boring to me anyway and well sometimes your minions get blasted in certain places... (series of meteor storm from hydras outside ember.. stupid fiends...)

even when REALLY bored Ill pack dust trap on my n/r for melee monsters who break aggro on a tank etc etc..

but my point is with 16 death.. blood of the master and veritas are plenty.. trying to monk more life in a minion that WILL degen and WILL give you ene back when it pops seems kind of a waste... I wont use heal area on my monk.. why would I use it on my necro..

if your having problems keeping an army up with 16 death /BOTM and veritas I dont think heal area is going to help you much..

basically IMO make your secondary something fun...

Heal Area makes you more self sufficient. I can keep casting BotM and Verata's all I want, but eventually I'm going go sac myself to death. You can't always depend on your teams monks. Especially in PUGs!

Heal Area not only becomes your self heal, which every character should have, but it also becomes a nice way to heal more minions and other players nearby at the same time.

No, Heal Area is not necessary to be a MM, but it helps more than it hurts. I myself used to be a N/Me running around as a MM, Heal Area just made things so much easier.

Hidden Prayers · Feb 10, 2006, 12:26 AM // 00:26

I'd never though of using troll ungent for self-heal.
That will be a good replacement for ToD for me, though
it is health in regen, not immediately...

And i feel the pain of MMs who don't get accepted to groups for being something other than N/Mo. That kind of thing sucks bad.

Also when being self-sufficient i prefer Deathly Swarm to VG.
It deals more dmg to more enemies. Though i do realize the true
reason you use it is to maintain health just a little bit. It's a good quick and dirty fix. Still, when i solo or do things of that nature i prefer dealing enough dmg to get a minion up. Then all hell can break loose

.

Samueldg · Feb 10, 2006, 12:51 AM // 00:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vilaptca

Heal Area makes you more self sufficient. I can keep casting BotM and Verata's all I want, but eventually I'm going go sac myself to death. You can't always depend on your teams monks. Especially in PUGs!

Heal Area not only becomes your self heal, which every character should have, but it also becomes a nice way to heal more minions and other players nearby at the same time.

No, Heal Area is not necessary to be a MM, but it helps more than it hurts. I myself used to be a N/Me running around as a MM, Heal Area just made things so much easier.

why not /r using troll ungent ( least tehn u have wild surv and can use something like dust trap etcetc

or how about n/w ?? since your a MM and arent using any elite as a MM skill take tactics and gladiators def with heal sig..

backfire doesnt effect any of those skills...

BUT there is a host of mezmer spells that DO effect heal area..

thats why I dont like using heal area.. the benifits are outwieghed by the cost.. sure you can heal everything in your area... including monsters...
and you can get backfired guilt, powerblock, etc etc...

there is a host of monsters using anti spells very few use any anti skill stuff..

Nessaja · Feb 10, 2006, 01:54 AM // 01:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Without a strong self-heal, you will quickly sacrifice yourself to death or be a major drain on the monk.

I have yet to 1. Hear any monk call me a major drain 2. Meet a monk that can't handle healing me when I'm playing MM.

Are we talking about the same minion master here? The subclass that kills entire groups in mere seconds - a monk is complaining over that? interesting, to say the least.

Fact remains you're getting less energy/minion and less energy over time. When you're dealing with big numbers you'll have a disadvantage. Being self sufficient but I'd rather go all out damage - in a above average situations, no-one but the monk should bring self heals, and the rest of the team focus at what they do best, wether it's tanking, nuking, or mastering your minions.

Hidden Prayers · Feb 10, 2006, 02:59 AM // 02:59

In answer to topic creator, it is not necessary
to be a N/Mo to be an effective MM.

Three Main types of MM displayed in topic:

N/mo: large number of well healed minions, heavy focus on sustaining numbers

N/r or N/e: large numbers of minions dealing a lot of dmg, heavy focus on dmg output.

N/e: not really emphasized in this topic, but minion bomber. Not the same type of mm, but it is a concept that should be considered when thinking mm

Eve · Feb 10, 2006, 05:53 AM // 05:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hidden Prayers

In answer to topic creator, it is not necessary
to be a N/Mo to be an effective MM.

N/e: not really emphasized in this topic, but minion bomber. Not the same type of mm, but it is a concept that should be considered when thinking mm

I believe Nec/ele uses Glyph of Renewal to maintain verata's sacrifice constantly. It is still considered an effective way to be a MM and especially this is usually used to solo Thirsty River mission with a MM.

Hidden Prayers · Feb 10, 2006, 12:07 PM // 12:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hidden Prayers

In answer to topic creator, it is not necessary
to be a N/Mo to be an effective MM.

Three Main types of MM displayed in topic:

N/mo: large number of well healed minions, heavy focus on sustaining numbers

N/r or N/e: large numbers of minions dealing a lot of dmg, heavy focus on dmg output.

N/e: not really emphasized in this topic, but minion bomber. Not the same type of mm, but it is a concept that should be considered when thinking mm

I think i included that somewhat.

Iori Shozu · Feb 12, 2006, 11:11 AM // 11:11

I don't think I have seen anyone post this point yet. But I play n/e for farming north kryta, thirsty river, and 5 man sf runs, anyways a freshly summoned Lvl 18 minion will not die when you taste of death him and with veratas sac and one cast of blood of the master he will be healthfully back on his way to full health. The biggest restraint that it has is seeing as how your elite is being used for glyph you have to kill enemies fairly rapidly in order to keep your energy levels high.

I played n/mo for a long time and honestly the minions seem to die alot faster when you are using heal area on them. Maybe its just because you have a few seconds of down time for veratas sac.

anyways its a boring build to play and I do much faster doing 55 necro ss builds or dark bomber for fighting I only play it occasionally so I can rape the tengu and get some satisfaction out of soloing those annoying birds.

kazz · Feb 12, 2006, 07:05 PM // 19:05

I use N/Mo in oro farm groups for one skill: Essence Bond.

it gives me enought energy to take MM skills and have enought leftover energy to also cast SS (25 damage), or any other skill i need to bring.

Dei of Solios · Feb 13, 2006, 04:14 PM // 16:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazz

I use N/Mo in oro farm groups for one skill: Essence Bond.

it gives me enought energy to take MM skills and have enought leftover energy to also cast SS (25 damage), or any other skill i need to bring.

Its my understanding that SS do not stack. So in an Oro group you ahve a primary SS cracking out 37 minimum SS your casting a spell that will get over taken?

I do like the Essence Bond Idea. OoB seems like a better choice than SS. IMO that is.

--Dei

Glints Bane · Feb 13, 2006, 04:21 PM // 16:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dei of Solios

Its my understanding that SS do not stack. So in an Oro group you ahve a primary SS cracking out 37 minimum SS your casting a spell that will get over taken?

SS does not stack