Curse

Ira Blinks · Mar 04, 2006, 05:17 AM // 05:17

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Originally Posted by Manic Smile

Frankly you are making an ass of yourself...and not because of what you are saying.

frankly i dont care if i ack like an ass when i know for sure that im right and my opponent already slapped me with bunch oh blanket statements.

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Back to the discussion, it is the overall utility of HA and the presence of a hard rez that makes /mo strong. In PvE any rez >> rez sig...so what if a great party never needs rezing it's about that one time everyone dies off and you're the last left alive without a rez...it happens. Not to mention I can think of many cases where rebirth saved a game where rez sig(granted any rez but rebirth but that's rather mute) would hav be utterly useless.

I always used to have rez with me untill I realized that the only time i need it is when I already know that this group is going to fall apart in a few minutes. And heal area... you dont need it if aggro didnt break thru, and if it did you can not use it anyway. So why waste precious attribute points on one skill with very limited use when you could pump everything into death and soul reaping and raise, raise, raise...

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Hexes are an iffy thing to depend on for the sake of self healing as you may not get the full benefit, have it smited off for more damage, and not even get it off in some cases with their casting times. Enchantments are the same problem.

Not sure if I understand you right, but I dont use blood magic. I mostly rely on taste of death (used with death nova) and sometimes consume corpse (when ss isnt doin good job and i feel like beating binders to the corpse). It is up to monk to heal me or not, but i will not die if he chooses not to.

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SF is a horrible place to test your builds strength due to the gear/keg trick.

Now you clearly missed the point here. The keg/gear trick ensures that each team member only does his job (tho keg/gear isnt really required, it just makes it more newb friendly), thus making SF the ultimate place to test build.
It comes down to: how many minions can I raise and keep alive granted mobs are not attacking me. You might say that this is ideal situation and it doesnt quiet work that well in other places and I will disagree. First of all mobs do strip, put hexes and degen on you even if there is keg tank around. And second I am able stay out of aggro even if there is no keg/gear involved, it just takes more effort and team coordination.

As a side note I am convinced that keg/gear/book trick is an ebil exploit, and the sole reason 90% of FoW pugs dont make it past tower of courage. It makes people too relaxed and teaches them not to bother to stay out of tank's aggro circle untill he gets all mobs on him (in fact most people dont even know that they should do that).

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Finally you don't use any mez skills so it's rather arbitrary what sub class you play.

thats what i said, and that guy started trying to prove me that I suck because i dont use heal area.

Carinae · Mar 04, 2006, 07:51 AM // 07:51

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Originally Posted by Ira Blinks

this thread (as well as "Do You Need to Be A Monk Secondary to be an effective MM?") is a stinky pile of trash mr. smartass.

Well done. You have fully refuted these entire threads. Such Insight.

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Originally Posted by Ira Blinks

Your statement about absence of self heals on pure death necro is simply pathetic - go study necro skills, that might give you a clue.

Yes, Taste of Death. I've already discussed ToD in the stinky pile of trash thread.

So your self-heal is to consume a minion. OK fine.

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Originally Posted by Ira Blinks

You can argue as much as you want that i can not get as many minions as N/Mo, because i can.

I don't need to argue it (again) because you just proved it.

Your self-heal destroys a minion. Heal Area heals you and nearby minions. So, N/Mo gains +1 minion and 100+ health/minion vs your build, per usage.

That's why people use it.

Ira Blinks · Mar 04, 2006, 03:22 PM // 15:22

honestly i've quit trying to help shortsighted people in game and dont know why im doin this here. If you dont understand the meaning of the trade off between healing and raising and think im killing minion that you wouldnt be able to raise anyway, that is fine with me. If you dont understand that every member of the group has to do his job and do not try to substitute someone else by sacrificing own efficiency, that is fine with me to. Basic rules of math and teamwork still apply wherever you like it or not, and they have yet to fail me. You think N/Mo is self sufficient and can hold bigger armies? Thats fine to, but i've seen the opposite. I made my build based on what i have seen to deal with problems that occur as opposed to people who stole newb-friendly build from forums and now trying to make up excuses for using it, because they were too lazy to try anything else.

Manic Smile · Mar 04, 2006, 08:16 PM // 20:16

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Originally Posted by Ira Blinks

frankly i dont care if i ack like an ass when i know for sure that im right and my opponent already slapped me with bunch oh blanket statements.

His statements appeared to address specific points to me...

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Originally Posted by Ira Blinks

I always used to have rez with me untill I realized that the only time i need it is when I already know that this group is going to fall apart in a few minutes.

Very not true. I can think of litterally hundreds of times rebirth has saved a party I was in. This is all over the game before Wiki or anyone else was really sure what the missions/bonuses or what all the quests are till more recently. A death or two doesn't make a bad party nessisarily.

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Originally Posted by Ira Blinks

And heal area... you dont need it if aggro didnt break thru, and if it did you can not use it anyway. So why waste precious attribute points on one skill with very limited use when you could pump everything into death and soul reaping and raise, raise, raise...

Yes you do as saccing = damage. What do you do just stand there with half your life sacced out and wait for natural regen? You can't do that outside of SF and it's gear/keg trick. As for healing while running away yes you can HA...who cares if you heal an already full life dwarf anyway...it's at full life...cause it if wasn't then likely something would have picked it up and it wouldn't be chasing you. MM > party when you have minnions...i.e. heal yourself even if you heal the enemy for the most part your minnions can make up for it in seconds...but I've already said that.

I have 17 death and 10 in soul reaping...frankly i don't really need more soul reaping so the 8 in healing and the 9 in blood are both not a problem. I mean really with OoB and all the deaths you dont' need 13 in soul reaping at all...in most cases with an SS it's a waste(all mobs tend to die at once).

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Originally Posted by Ira Blinks

Not sure if I understand you right, but I dont use blood magic. I mostly rely on taste of death (used with death nova) and sometimes consume corpse (when ss isnt doin good job and i feel like beating binders to the corpse). It is up to monk to heal me or not, but i will not die if he chooses not to.

ToD is self defeating and Death Nova is pointless unless you're bombing and then minnions > horrors and no fiends at all and say echo maybe. I mean think about it. Nova will do about 70 to 100 dmg at the cost of one fiend say. That fiend otherwise would do about 5 to 25 each hit as well as run meat shield(you run behind them) as well as provide a minnion for infuse or dark bond. In 10 hits a fiend could make up and/or over take the damage from a nova as well as it frees a spot for another skill...assuming you use ToD and DN while I have HA. And consume corpse is worse... as an MM you shouldn't need energy at least at the cost of a corpse...self defeating. And leaving your healing up to an already taxed or perhaps kiting monk is just foolhardy and in somecases inconsiderate as, if the monk doesn't heal you then they have to deal with all your minnions but if he does he has a harder job. The only reason this even works is because again you are in SF.

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Originally Posted by Ira Blinks

Now you clearly missed the point here. The keg/gear trick ensures that each team member only does his job (tho keg/gear isnt really required, it just makes it more newb friendly), thus making SF the ultimate place to test build.
It comes down to: how many minions can I raise and keep alive granted mobs are not attacking me. You might say that this is ideal situation and it doesnt quiet work that well in other places and I will disagree. First of all mobs do strip, put hexes and degen on you even if there is keg tank around. And second I am able stay out of aggro even if there is no keg/gear involved, it just takes more effort and team coordination.

Yea that's it...that's not why so many call PvE a joke... No matter how well you play you cannot avoid agrro all the time. Maybe the monk kitted it to you or a pratrol came up behind you. There are so many casess where you cannot control aggro. As for SF being a good testing groud I disagree. You should pratice how you play or you'll play how you pratice. I.E. if you are going to be using your MM build throughout the game, best to test it throughout the game...and while nothing you have or don't will break your build...I still feel it isn't as efficeint or self suffiecnt as my own with /mo.

byteme! · Mar 05, 2006, 01:23 AM // 01:23

It's an overwhelming decision that N/MO is more self sufficient and arguably better at being a MM. You can argue til the cows come home and nothing will change what the majority of people think about this issue. If you keep telling yourself how good other N/ combinations are better someone might actually believe you but then again who cares? You're a minority.

kaldak · Mar 05, 2006, 01:50 AM // 01:50

there is no best. how many times does this have to be said? its kinda the whole point of guild wars...

i gave heal area a fair try and honestly i find healing spring much more effective. it does more total healing, it only effects allies, and it does it over time. this means it can actually keep a minion at full health topped off for 10 seconds even with verutas down and it can significantly increase the health of a minion that is low. it works super well when there's a bit of downtime while spirits go up and the puller gets in place for the next encounter. and if the situation is right (all enemies are already engaged) i sometimes even lay it down near the battle without worrying about healing the enemy. it works so well i dont even bother bringing botm alot of the time anymore (i know, thats mm sacralige).

additionally this lets me bring serpent's quickness for faster recharge on summonings and VS. that has quite a noticeable effect.

now how is that definitely worse than a monk secondary? granted, no rebirth, but as long as a number of people on the team have it i've never run into any trouble

i'm not saying n/mo cant work, but claiming that its the only way to go is just closeminded. have you actually tried these other builds with an open mind?

on another note, i actually got kicked out of a group today for not being n/e. n/mo might be a majority, but its a pretty slim majority at best...

Manic Smile · Mar 05, 2006, 02:15 AM // 02:15

The problem with Heal Spring is casting time/interuption as well as recharge

To be honest I rarely use BotM either as it's a saccing spell...but I find it worth keepig on my bar

Serpents I find isn't really needed for summoning but yea it can be helpful for VS.

Only real loss is a hard rez...but if you read the general posts out there /R was on the debatable list of sub classes.

Acutally all I have ever claimed is /mo is more efficient/effective at keeping minnions up over extended periods as well as maintaing the largest army nothing else...even /ele and /me can be done

Was it a pug group that kicked you...I'm sorry but that says very little...

if you like /R try out winniowing when you have a large group up...I found it *fun*

Carinae · Mar 05, 2006, 02:35 AM // 02:35

Yea, I won't argue against N/R. I don't think it's quite as good, but some like it. It's the only other real option IMHO.

Manic Smile · Mar 05, 2006, 02:41 AM // 02:41

Hey Carinae I got your message but your inbox is full so I couldn't msg you back...but yea I agree.

kaldak · Mar 05, 2006, 02:43 AM // 02:43

yeah, a pug. and i really just mentioned it to show that even people who think there is one best build dont neccessarily think its /mo. but you're right, it doesnt say much.

my comments were really aimed at byteme! and others who dont seem to even want to debate the topic.

you do have a point with the quicker reacharge and interupts, but remember that springs does go for 10 seconds off of 1 cast and i'm usually doing it when far away from/not in combat, so interupts arent so bad.

and i find serpents does have a noticable impact on my summoning speed. energy becomes much more of a concern than when i'm not using it and thats simply because the summonings are being cast more frequently.

maybe its really nothing more than style...i find i end up with bigger armies as n/r than n/mo, but evidently alot of people dont. doesnt mean anyone is wrong...

Manic Smile · Mar 05, 2006, 03:32 AM // 03:32

I don't think /R is an unreasonable choice.

My case for the interupt problem is for when say you are kiting or taking damage and you are casting it to heal yourself or another party member and get poped. It doesn't even have to be an interupt skill...you only need be hit for a chance to be interupted which can be a pain. That said I do find it more useful as you said to keep up the army when in down time as you do not have to keep casting it as often. So for this skill trade of it is more of a style choice.

My reason for saying SQ is uncessisary with summoning spells is that with a Bortak's Bone Cesta and a 10% casting speed death deadly cesta I find that I'm usually waiting on a corpse 9/10 times instead of on the skill to recharge...where as without any recharge in my wand/offhand set the recharge on VS is much more useful to me.

Also winnowing can be used when you have that huge army up just to see all those large numbers pop up.

Samueldg · Mar 05, 2006, 04:49 AM // 04:49

the MAIN reason why I changed from n/r to n/mo is due to healing spring...

its got a long cast time and requires me to stay in one spot to get the benit from it aka 3 sec cast time.. now I have to stand there and cast my sac spells before I can move on...

as a n/mo I can cast sac spells as I move and keep walking then hit HA

the time between mobs increases more than anything the time it takes to do a run so the object for me is to cut that as much as possible..

If I could find an effiecent spell to cast that would regen me fully the sac from minion feeding Id be all about it...

BUT then we run into another wall rebirth...

for me there are a few things Ive found that work like a charm..

apart from the basic 2 summoned spells and the 2 healin minions spells
( fiends /horrors, minions /horrors... veritas sac and BOTM)

having deathy swarm for a "aid de camp" spell and since ive already got 16 dm.. makes sense.. not much else that doesnt require me to get close, use up 15 ene , or require the use of a corpse within the death magic sheme that works as well so cheaply on ene.

now with heal area I can help in the backfield and heal a backfired monkwhile he heals another.. I can keep that same monk happy and take care of myself healing up my life saccin..

in TOPK rez sig is seriously useful in my book as MM.. the orders goes down or the monk gets smacked.. bam rez sig .. if the monk died the orders is right there with him using BR.. so the monk is back up and healing within 3 seconds.. thats kinda nice..

and always rebirth.. just incase a bad pull etc etc.. the game aint over so long as ONE GUY with rebirth is still kicking...

Manic Smile · Mar 05, 2006, 06:23 AM // 06:23

*that came out wrong* sorry too many arguements

let me reword that...perhaps try these suggestions

2 sup runes

weapon switch

Šiljo · Mar 05, 2006, 09:15 AM // 09:15

IMO heal area is a total waste of atr points...veratas and blood of the master are enough to keep ur minions alive...better put points in blood magic and use oob..u can get 18 ene wit 12 blood magic i think..7 in soul reaping and 16 dm...and u can heal urself by spammin life siphon all round while u sacrifice ur health...

Manic Smile · Mar 05, 2006, 11:28 PM // 23:28

In case you didn't read any of the previous posts...Life stealing hexes are an unreliable source of healing and do your party no good at all, nor your minnions(in terms of healing). 18 energy from OoB is entirely overkill and BotM is not enough to keep your minnions alive once Verata's Sac is beat out by uncapped dp as well as the 9 seconds you can't keep it up(without another skills help) as well as it requires saccing. My soul reaping is above 7 and my Death Magic is at 17(20% of the time but a large inpact on minnions none the less). How is my build hurt by HA.

Fates · Mar 07, 2006, 02:51 AM // 02:51

Interesting read.

I'm going to side with the non HA group, especially for tombs BP builds. I run 16 (20%-17) death, 11 (10+1) SR and whatever's left put in Blood (for BR). Couldn't tell you how many times I've been called a good MM. Also couldn't tell you the number of times I've run tombs w/ my ranger and get totally frustrated with the MM that can't raise any minions due to not having enough E (both from casting HA after his sacrifices in battles, and from having low SR)

Standard Nec/Mo skillbar with all death except for Blood Rit and Rebirth. For the most part, im just casting fiend and horror. Whenever Verata's renews, cast that, keep it up as much as possible. My job is to keep that wall of minions up and am not going to waste any energy on heal area that could go to raising a minion. I use every corpse created. 15 fresh minions are way more effective as a wall than 15 old minions that have been kept alive w/ HA. Use BoM between battles to keep em alive between Veratas.

It is the monks job to keep people healed and if he needs E and the Orders isn't near him, I'll toss a BR on him. Rebirth for obvious reasons.

Wicked Shadow · Mar 07, 2006, 04:14 AM // 04:14

I totally agree that HA should not be used during battles to counter Verata's. You need all the energy you can get for summoning. I've been using blood recenty and found it useful, though I doubt I'd use BR. You'll need all the health you can get considering you're already sacrificing for Verata's and if you die your army goes rogue. Dark bond is very useful though, and I've been using Life transfer as a good health repleneshing spell.

Manic Smile · Mar 07, 2006, 07:04 AM // 07:04

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Originally Posted by Fates Monk

Also couldn't tell you the number of times I've run tombs w/ my ranger and get totally frustrated with the MM that can't raise any minions due to not having enough E (both from casting HA after his sacrifices in battles, and from having low SR)

*cough* pug *cough* Having done 4 man Tomb runs whith my build, the MM you speak of was not very skilled nor is your example proof of anything. OoB...for one gives me back 15 energy for 5 energy. And how is 10 not enough Soul Reaping while 11 is. Did you even read all the posts?

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Originally Posted by Fates Monk

Standard Nec/Mo skillbar with all death except for Blood Rit and Rebirth. For the most part, im just casting fiend and horror. Whenever Verata's renews, cast that, keep it up as much as possible. My job is to keep that wall of minions up and am not going to waste any energy on heal area that could go to raising a minion.

I can use BR and use HA...I just take out my protection skill...either Infuse or Dark Bond. Heal Area = better healed minnions as I guarentee that you cannot keep your minnions alive as long with just one heal skill, that requires saccing none the less, as I can with two and one that counteracts the saccing....unless you are going to drain the monks that should be healing the rest of the party taking damage from all the craziness in Tombs. Show me a SS of your completed 4 man run or better and then I'll say "maybe" you have the right to say I can't do my job. I'm not saying 3 man can't be done...I know it can but I had 3 friends on at the time.

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Originally Posted by Fates Monk

I use every corpse created. 15 fresh minions are way more effective as a wall than 15 old minions that have been kept alive w/ HA. Use BoM between battles to keep em alive between Veratas.

lol...so do I...except I have the 15 fresh ones as well as the other 20 or so not so fresh ones...who wins you think...

pay attention people...ENERGY IS NOT THE MINNION MASTER'S REAL PROBLEM...time and corpse replacement are...and corpse replacement is only an issue because of the time problem...due to the increasing minnion dp. The insane damage the SS necro provides fixes most of the corpse replacement issue so then the real issue becomes buying as much time on the margin as possible for your current army to get to your next source of corpses then keeping them alive during that battle long enough to replace or increase your army. How can you heal your minnions once verata's can't keep their life regen positive...

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Originally Posted by Fates Monk

It is the monks job to keep people healed and if he needs E and the Orders isn't near him, I'll toss a BR on him. Rebirth for obvious reasons.

It is the Monk's job to keep those taking damage in battle healed...not keep the MM healed every 30 seconds or so. I assume much less actually as BR, VS, and BotM all require life, which you cannot replace....should you say blood damage...what about outside/before battle?

Manic Smile · Mar 07, 2006, 07:07 AM // 07:07

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Originally Posted by Wicked Shadow

I totally agree that HA should not be used during battles to counter Verata's. You need all the energy you can get for summoning.

How about do both...keep yourself heald and continue to summon minnions...it can be done I assure you.

Fates · Mar 07, 2006, 07:35 AM // 07:35

Great thoughts, will have to try some of them. May even try HA again.

No screen shot, but I have completed the last 2 levels with me as MM and 4 rangers, lost our monk, orders and one ranger to err7 all at once on the third wurm in lvl 2. I assure you, I can keep an army up.

My one comment would be, for all your complaining about sacc'ing, don't you think the 20% for OoB is a bit much to gain a little E?