Curse

Manic Smile · Mar 01, 2006, 01:52 AM // 01:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

It's more critical than HA, sorry.

I feel for ya, Necro's don't really come into their own until they get to level 20. There's a lot of struggle to get to 20, then things get easier.

I'd suggest Curses (which work well at low levels) or Blood for now.

Minnion LVL >>>>> Verata's Sac >>>>>> Heal Area > Blood otM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

A renewable rez is nice, you're right about that. But I prefer Vengeance. Rebirth would be my second choice, but the loss of all your energy is the killer for a MM.

Rebirth is good if you've LOST the battle and need to regroup. And by definition, if the MM is still alive, the battle's not lost.

Weapon switch is a must for any build with rebirth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jessyi

The one thing I hate about Heal Area more than anything else is that if you get a chance to safely get up beside a group of minions beating up say, a boss for example, and they're dying, you can't heal them with heal area without healing the boss as well. Use BotM - if your monk(s) can't heal your sacrificing, you're all boned (no pun intended) anyways.

-Jessyi

Know the range of HA...I do this all the time without healing the enemy and sometimes I heal the enemy anyway...110 life vs 80+ minnions...yea

however being able to heal YOURSELF is so much more powerful then anything...the order of MM once he has an army up is this

Self Preservation > Army Preservation > Army Raising > Helping Party

With dark bond up and Heal Area I can go without saccrificing anything skill points wise using two superior runes and still not die. You talk about the over use of the idea of Nec/Mo but never think past the over use of the idea of only one superior rune...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jessyi

Use BotM - if your monk(s) can't heal your sacrificing, you're all boned (no pun intended) anyways.

-Jessyi

The monks have better things to do then worry about the MM getting spiked/degened to death. Especially true in Grenith's Footprint and TotPK

Manic Smile · Mar 01, 2006, 02:06 AM // 02:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samueldg

BOTM is to heal your minions when theyre grouped...
heal area is to make you self sufficent..its a big heal for when your clear of monsters and sacing life..

QFT...

Wicked Shadow · Mar 01, 2006, 04:39 AM // 04:39

I much prefer heal area over BoTM. Same recharge, cast time, energy cost, and it heals more per attribute point without a health loss. I have my stats spread 16 death, 10 healing prayers, and 9 soul reaping (only one superior rune) and heal area still heals more. True, heal area heals enemies, but if you're on the front lines you're having problems anyway. Trying to keep horrors alive by hurting yourself will make you a more attractive target. I basically use verata's sacrifice constantly between raising minions and only use heal area between battles. I even tested the radius on the two spells. They're almost exactly the same, although BoTM has a slightly larger radius.
I'm still experimenting, but here's my current build:
Deathly Chill (just to do some damage to start things out)
Healing Breeze
Heal Area
Verata's Sacrifice
Animate Bone Fiend
Animate Bone Horror
Rebirth
currently uncertain

Samueldg · Mar 01, 2006, 07:21 AM // 07:21

Im a fan of simplicity for purpose so heres my build for MM in Topk and oro farming
n/mo
16 death sup rune
11 soulreap
8 healing

Fiends ( in oro)OR Minions ( in TOPK) ( the reason for minions is simple 25 ene for a 22 return.. making minions cost me 3 ene to cast.. while theyre dieing and blocking rangers are killing and provideing me with MORE bodies my job is to block and protect via having a mass of minions.. killing is the business of the rangers with orders on them in Oro farming my job is to kill so I take ranged killers and spam as many as I can... if on the last guy Ive got 15 ene I make a horror til we get to the next batch of monsters)

Horror
veritas sac
bOTM
heal area ( for myself mainly, as monk I hate having to heal up every sac and sure dont enjoy following behind a MM who is doing his job by sacing and keeping his minions up because it risks the rest of the team whos moved ahead in preparation for the next group, in TOPK this is a huge risk)

now here is where your free to do whatever..

for TOPK

deathly swarm because its something to do til something dies..
grenths balance.. this has saved my butt MANY times from a grasp and really I dont need OOB for ene Ive got soul reaping and plenty of things dieing
res SIG this has saved parties.. your monk gets spiked by every caster on earth all at once..
poof he is back up and not suffering too bad

and rebirth
IMO in an uncertain environment like TOPK everyone should have rebirth.. all too often someoen does something without thinking and the whole party is on the run and dieing... this can decide success or failure...

Oro farming it doesnt really matter what all I bring so long as the first four are covered.. I dont need to worry about ressing anyone cause all attacks are on the war with the gear... I can bring swarm, wells, whatever... so long as im making minions constantly the rest is play time..
point being you can go with ONLY minons and minion support because thats all you should be using..

personally Ill take a r/mo and a nec/mo over all else in topk. simply due to rebirth.. its a long area and nothing to achieve from start til your at the end.. its not worth it to me to spend 40 minutes gettin to the last stage and taking out the last 3 groups before that final bridge and have to start over because the party was mostly some other secondary.. with the plethora of new people joining on the BOTM for tombs Id rather be safe than sorry..

pm me if your up for a run I love runnin this and do easily 3-5 runs a day... >holly ween< my my cheapo collectors armor

MasterThrawn · Mar 01, 2006, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samueldg

pm me if your up for a run I love runnin this and do easily 3-5 runs a day...

I just might do that - I'm just starting to get into these runs, and they're quite fun. I'll look for ya soon...

MasterThrawn · Mar 01, 2006, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Wow - this has really turned into an awesome thread for MM's - lots of good advice here, and I have learned a lot from this. Tried some of these ideas out, and still have some more experimenting to do. Thanks for all the great tips

Carinae · Mar 01, 2006, 04:32 PM // 16:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manic Smile

While energy isn't a real cocern a MM should almost always be kiting away from danger(as they are still highly useful even while running) so I say choose the armor you like the look of most.

I'd say you want to run Tormentors or Necrotic armor. Generally speaking, it's a Bad Thing™ when MMs die. Wear the strongest armor you can.

beanerman_99 · Mar 01, 2006, 05:36 PM // 17:36

I have done ToPK a few times with my necro ele and really had no major problems so I am not here to get into the second profession debate,but I did have a few questions.

My first trip in I took fiends instead of horrors and still did ok but didn't have that melee wall set up. I have since dropped them and take horrors.

I guess my main question is how do I target my minions quickly in order to cast death nova on them for added dmg? I was holding down Alt. but that doesnt seem to highlight my minions. Trying to use the mouse pointer is hard as heck because the minions move around so much. What part of selecting the minions am I missing?

thanks!

PS after 3 successful runs I have only gotten 1 green, Illyana's staff. I tend to think that if each boss drops 3 greens and that totals of 9 greens, then each person should get at least 1 green with the left over green going to random person.

Carinae · Mar 01, 2006, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by beanerman_99

I guess my main question is how do I target my minions quickly in order to cast death nova on them for added dmg? I was holding down Alt. but that doesnt seem to highlight my minions. Trying to use the mouse pointer is hard as heck because the minions move around so much. What part of selecting the minions am I missing?

You can't. That's precisely the problem with the Minion Bomber builds. You can't get DN on the minion that needs it. It gets exponentially more difficult when you are trying to raise an army. Thats why many (most) MM's don't run DN.

It's purely an interface issue.

wsmcasey · Mar 01, 2006, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Yea, I tried Death Nova with MM and its pretty hard. The only successful way I found what to cast it on low level minions just before sending then in to battle since they more than likely with die first. never cast on fiends since the are ranged attacks. That only leaves a 30 second window for at least a couple of minions to die in battle. Its still a lotta work though if you have to cast DN on all your minions hoping that one of them will die first.

To bad you can't "Ctrl + right click and highlight all your minions and cast Death Nova on all of them at once, that would be sweet.

beanerman_99 · Mar 01, 2006, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

You can't. That's precisely the problem with the Minion Bomber builds. You can't get DN on the minion that needs it. It gets exponentially more difficult when you are trying to raise an army. Thats why many (most) MM's don't run DN.

It's purely an interface issue.

Well that stinks. I thought I mught be missing something. What I hate is when others razz me for not casting D nova. Now I dont feel so bad about not using it.

Aurorae · Mar 01, 2006, 06:41 PM // 18:41

As a minion mistress, I prefer being a secondary monk. A lot of reasons for it have been mentioned in previous posts, and I fully agree with those. Heal area helps keep the minion master self-sufficient. It's easier to do your job, to raise minions when you don't have to depend on the monks to heal you.

This doesn't necessarily mean that I spam the hell out of HA whenever I get the chance. I rarely use it on my minions... the times it does happen is when their health degeneration is so massive that I have no other choice but to heal them with everything that I can.

I farm Tombs and SF with my build and I'm known (within my guild) to maintain between 10-30 minions on my own. It varies, of course.

I don't have offering of blood, nor do I use any curses skills. Frankly, I don't have any other skills but the crucial death ones. And rebirth. Then there's my empty slot, one which is used for any skill that I desire. Usually, that's blood ritual, because it's helpful. Sometimes Spinal Shivers if I'm feeling bold. xD

I've tried most MM builds and I find the N/Mo to be the most efficient. As well as the most rewarding.

Jessyi · Mar 01, 2006, 07:03 PM // 19:03

Quote:

Check it out, I combined Glyph of Renewal with Verata's Sacrifice. 100% VS FTW! Best MM Evar!"

Heh, is that supposed to be me?

Now I regret ever having posted. At least I *thought* of Glyph of Renewal and Ver Sac. I admit I didn't do the math, and if I didn't care I shouldn't have posted. Largely I did just because I was pissed about getting thrown out of Tombs groups for being N/E. I don't even use MM that much.

Really, it seems like the only two parts of my build you don't like are GoR and Blood Ritual, maybe Death Nova. I'll defend Blood Ritual because I don't see any harm in carrying it when I'm 3 feet away from a monk who could use the energy anyways. For sure I'll defend Death Nova. I don't carry ToD because I don't run a real Minion Bomber build. It's strictly for that 3rd stage of decay you mentioned, and despite whatever hand-eye dexterity issues the rest of the community might have, I can pinpoint a dying minion and DN it with ease. I'd like to think that that kind of offense will offset any self-sufficiency I might sacrifice.

Why the sacrifice at all? Why justify it? No good reason - merely that as a monk myself I've never had a problem dealing with Necro sacrificing, often because (and get this, it's crazy) I'll work WITH the Necro by bringing Heal Area myself! (zOMFg wut?).

I won't argue with your build information Carinae - it IS clearly superior, though I still believe with just the tinyest bit of inter-group communication you can make a build better by depending a little on the resources of the other players. Self-sufficiency is a nice idea, but it pales in comparison to a little teamwork.

-Jessyi

kaldak · Mar 01, 2006, 07:18 PM // 19:18

some more experimentation on my part and a few things i'd like to add.

i still dont see the justification in putting 10 points or so in healing just for heal area. there are too many times when tossing in a little blood or curses can be handy. i'd still rather rely on life transfer for my self healing. honestly, even if the monk ignored me entirely, my saccing is usually covered by natural health regen.

i do find in hard to death nova my troops effectively in battle, but i've found it much more effective to death nova the group's pets or even fellow party members if there are a lack of corpses. much easier to see when one of them is about to die and quickly click their name on the list and cast.

i gave lesser energy glyph a try and it actually does come in handy occationally. its hardly a neccesity, but it is nice to have, and perhaps enough to convince that i like N/E better.

Samueldg · Mar 01, 2006, 08:01 PM // 20:01

well the thing about healing is the points dont really matter as much since its a self heal with Heal area.

your basically figuring what your sac is from both veritas and botm... then heal area to remove it.. granted its nice after a battle when you have fresh minions and they took a beatin but didnt die.. you veritas> botm> heal area and your all back up to full health..

I try and keep soul reaping around 10-12... that way I never actually loose a great deal of ene.. ( 25 to cast minons 15 to cast horrors... when they die I loose maybe a total of 10 ene.. and have pips in ene regen to even that back more to around 5 depending on how long they last.. meteor shower does rip me a new one though..)

so reasonable if you have a sup rune on and even a major soulreap without and health bonus from weap or offhand your gonna sac maybe a total of 90 health from veritas and botm.. a 7 healing will give you a strong enough heal area to remove the sac.

I try to look at doing one thing very well.. Ive done the whole MM/SS nec with curses and death and in all cases something suffers for it so now I have a philosophy to be ONE primary and be damn good at it.. aka when I do Orders I keep 16 blood 10 soul reap and whatever in healing using pip regen to keep me from sacin to death and the monk can happily ignore me while they concerate on those in danger.. If im doing MM I want to BE death magic only and everything else is supporting that primary role.

this kinda works with every pve build I do anymore. even monking Ill use max healing nothing but 5 ene heals and divine favor to get the biggest heals possible with boon healing making my heals cost 7 ene total BUT IM dropping anywhere from 300-500 heals( word of healing for the win!) in topk Ive found dwaynas kiss to be far superior to most everything else due to the constant hexes.. basically if you cover your job and do soley just what your needed for youll never have problem in doing it well.

Death nova:

the ONly way Ive found to effectively use death nova in pve is fiends and ONE horror..

the horror gets dn on him and rushes up to take a beating.. fiends are in the back gviing the beating when the horror gets gacked...
then make another horror and peg him fast with nova again...

even then its not very effective...
on occasion in TOPK Ill nova a minon in a meteor storm.. IF I actually bring nova.. anymore its rare that I will.. the basic job of making minons keeps me rather busy as is.

Carinae · Mar 01, 2006, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jessyi

Heh, is that supposed to be me?

Now I regret ever having posted. At least I *thought* of Glyph of Renewal and Ver Sac. I admit I didn't do the math, and if I didn't care I shouldn't have posted.

I confess it was a bit of frustration on my part. It wasn't directed at you per se, but it probably was thrown in your general direction. It was nothing personal, and I really don't want people to 'regret ever having posted.' Sorry for making you feel that way.

It's just that when I'm trying to share my experiences and knowledge and the very next post is "She's craaaazy, N/E MMs rock" I want to strangle someone. And unfortunately, my only options are:

1) Do nothing, and let mis-information spread.
2) Come back with overwhelming examples and illustrations.

You can run anything you want to run. Run minions as W/N if you want! If it works for you great.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jessyi

It's strictly for that 3rd stage of decay you mentioned, and despite whatever hand-eye dexterity issues the rest of the community might have, I can pinpoint a dying minion and DN it with ease. I'd like to think that that kind of offense will offset any self-sufficiency I might sacrifice.

Hey, if you can teach other people how to use DN effectively you could change the MM metagame! It's a good spell, but not easy to apply.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jessyi

...though I still believe with just the tinyest bit of inter-group communication you can make a build better by depending a little on the resources of the other players.

No argument what-so-evar.

Don't be afraid to post.
Carinae

Ira Blinks · Mar 01, 2006, 09:28 PM // 21:28

I use death nova all the time and see nothing hard about it.
Less chat, more micromanagement.

Manic Smile · Mar 02, 2006, 04:54 AM // 04:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

I'd say you want to run Tormentors or Necrotic armor. Generally speaking, it's a Bad Thing™ when MMs die. Wear the strongest armor you can.

Agreed this is the most logical thing to do but really the trade off isn't noticable in PvE and I don't have the experience to give advice for PvP MMing like say MF. I run scars with bloodstained(FIX IT A.NET) for the added energy in the start up and I seriously never die unless I'm not paying attention(most often the case) or my group blows...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jessyi

I'll work WITH the Necro by bringing Heal Area myself! (zOMFg wut?).
-Jessyi

I find having verata's on the monk is much more useful for the MM if the monk can still be useful the party.

Sniper22 · Mar 02, 2006, 02:48 PM // 14:48

Usually get 20+ with this build

Fiend
Horror
V. Sac
Grenths Balance
Prot Spirit
Dark Bond
Mark of Pain
Rebirth

16/17 Death 12+1+3 (+1 20%)
12 Soul Reaping 9+3
12 Curses 9+3
3 Prot
2 Blood 1+1

Undead Shadowknight · Mar 02, 2006, 03:38 PM // 15:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sniper22

Usually get 20+ with this build

Fiend
Horror
V. Sac
Grenths Balance
Prot Spirit
Dark Bond
Mark of Pain
Rebirth

16/17 Death 12+1+3 (+1 20%)
12 Soul Reaping 9+3
12 Curses 9+3
3 Prot
2 Blood 1+1

Just wondering how you would get 20+ minions up and running with only 1 minion healing spell. Also, don't you get scatter with MoP?