Curse

sno · Jan 06, 2006, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undead Preacher

Never said SS stacks with 1 on 1..... And IP does do more dmg... but not alot more... I just prefer Empathy.... Its also nice for when 55 only pulls 2 aataxes... I cast SS on Both and Empathy on both.... I just find with Arcane Echo Costing 15 energy, and SS costing 15 energy.... the last thing I want in my skill set is another 15 energy skill..... I used to have IP in this build... but when I compare the two... I get alot more use out of Empathy!

Empathy forces you to spread your attributes. IP lets you have a lot more into soul reaping, to keep your energy up after fights.

Undead Preacher · Jan 06, 2006, 07:44 PM // 19:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by sno

Empathy forces you to spread your attributes. IP lets you have a lot more into soul reaping, to keep your energy up after fights.

Your right about that... but I have two Domination skills i use... Empathy and SoW which i LOVE for smites...

I cast Arcane Echo.... then SV on the 55...... Then SoW on smites....Then SS... Count to 4... Recast Echoed SV... and 1 more SS.... then its over no matter how many smites their are... whether its 3 or 15......I would Concentrate on NOT spreading my skills and put some into Soul Reaping but it seems as though I don't really have an energy problem!

I also NEVER need a cover-hex for smites.... but if you like to use one, theres an additional use for Empathy.... a cover hex... but if u use the sequence above you'll never need to use one

lord_shar · Jan 06, 2006, 09:18 PM // 21:18

I do see a couple of deficiencies with this SS/SV build in its current form:

1) No unconditional direct damage. Asside from a staff or wand, the present build is completely dependent on triggered hexes for damage output. Spell casters like Coldfires and Terror Webs could pose a bit more challenge, especially if spaced apart.

2) No self health recovery if the situation turns bad (monk dies, necro gains agro, etc)

3) No cheap + fast cycling cover hexes to protect SS if other smites join the fight late. SV takes a long time to cycle/recharge, so cover-hexes provide insurance to deal with the unexpected.

The build in its current form is fine for strictly anti-smite operations, but it doesn't seem to have too many answers for other creatures in UW.

Many monks I team up with (especially non-english speakers) still insist on avoiding coldfires at all costs. This suprises me since they are very easy to kill with the correct set-up.

Undead Preacher · Jan 06, 2006, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

I do see a couple of deficiencies with this SS/SV build in its current form:

1) No unconditional direct damage. Asside from a staff or wand, the present build is completely dependent on triggered hexes for damage output. Spell casters like Coldfires and Terror Webs could pose a bit more challenge, especially if spaced apart.

2) No self health recovery if the situation turns bad (monk dies, necro gains agro, etc)

3) No cheap + fast cycling cover hexes to protect SS if other smites join the fight late. SV takes a long time to cycle/recharge, so cover-hexes provide insurance to deal with the unexpected.

The build in its current form is fine for strictly anti-smite operations, but it doesn't seem to have too many answers for other creatures in UW.

Many monks I team up with (especially non-english speakers) still insist on avoiding coldfires at all costs. This suprises me since they are very easy to kill with the correct set-up.

1)-why do i need direct dmg..... SS drops not only Aataxes but Graspings, Smites, Colds, TerrorWebbs...... and the 55 should have SB so 2 wand hits kill nightmeres...

2)-I've never needed a self-heal in uw.. i always keep distance maintained in case of 55 dying... if you want a self heal add Insidious Parasite but for me its useless..... never have a health problem!

3) your saying SV takes a while to recharge.... thats why against smites you echo sv NOT ss..... I've never needed a cover hex with this build....
Cast Arcane Echo>Cast SV on 55> Cast Signet of Weariness> Cast SS> count to 4 or 5 and recast echoed SV.NO NEED for cover hex... but if u want to use one for some unknown reason.... use Empathy

lord_shar · Jan 06, 2006, 10:17 PM // 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undead Preacher

1)-why do i need direct dmg..... SS drops not only Aataxes but Graspings, Smites, Colds, TerrorWebbs...... and the 55 should have SB so 2 wand hits kill nightmeres...

A few answers:

1) Late and tripple-spawn nightmares. I see very late nightmares spawn occasionally, appearing after combat has already started. The monk is often swarmed and won't necessarily have clear line-of-site to target the nightmare in time. The necro stands a much better chance at killing it, but if you have multiple late pops, then your monk will be in trouble.

2) Colds and TerrorWebs, especially when spaced out where multiple SS don't overlap . They tend to cast spells often, thereby hindering SS damage. SB eventually runs out, and the monk can't recharge via Bonetti's.

Suggested solution: Desicrate enchantments. It hits very hard at 74 to 150+ dmg at only 10 energy over a group of monsters. There's no viable reason not to bring it if you're running 18-19 curses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undead Preacher

2)-I've never needed a self-heal in uw.. i always keep distance maintained in case of 55 dying... if you want a self heal add Insidious Parasite but for me its useless..... never have a health problem!

I wouldn't suggest IP... It's expensive at 10 energy, cycles slow, and is triggered. It also makes a poor cover hex.

My necro occasionally gets agro, especially when grouped with a monk that fears coldfires. I know how to avoid agro, but when dodging coldfires at your partner's insistance in tight spaces, keeping agro-free isn't always possible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undead Preacher

3) your saying SV takes a while to recharge.... thats why against smites you echo sv NOT ss..... I've never needed a cover hex with this build....
Cast Arcane Echo>Cast SV on 55> Cast Signet of Weariness> Cast SS> count to 4 or 5 and recast echoed SV.NO NEED for cover hex... but if u want to use one for some unknown reason.... use Empathy

I know... I've been echoing SV with smites long before this thread was ever posted.

I still run into situations where SV cannot be maintained due to late arrivals, unexpected agro, etc. It pays to be prepared and have a fallback solution in case SV/Echo fails.

Empathy is also bad for reasons already mentioned above - it forces you to divert attribute points into domination, thereby weakening your other stats.

All I'm saying is that your build should work, but it can use more fine tuning for more damage output and situational flexibility

tigernz · Jan 06, 2006, 10:19 PM // 22:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undead Preacher

2)-I've never needed a self-heal in uw.. i always keep distance maintained in case of 55 dying... if you want a self heal add Insidious Parasite but for me its useless..... never have a health problem!

Like you mentioned - staying out of the aggro circle, then running until you lose aggro is your best bet if the monk goes down so you really shouldn't need a self-heal.
I wouldn't recommend IP as a self-heal for a SS/SV necro - if they're close enough to hit you in order to trigger IP then you've screwed up already.

If you absolutely must have a self-heal I'd probably go with Illusion of Weakness or Parasitic Bond since you've got points in illusion & curses anyway.

I like to bring along Desecrate Enchantments to speed the killing while I'm waiting on Spiteful to recharge. For some reason I'm getting bonus damage when using it on Aatxes...anyone know why since they're never enchanted?
Against smites & coldfires it works really well as they have enchants up more often than not.

*EDIT* I also bring Pwr drain & leech sig for sneaky NM's who pop up when the monk isn't ready

lord_shar · Jan 06, 2006, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by tigernz

Like you mentioned - staying out of the aggro circle, then running until you lose aggro is your best bet if the monk goes down so you really shouldn't need a self-heal.
I wouldn't recommend IP as a self-heal for a SS/SV necro - if they're close enough to hit you in order to trigger IP then you've screwed up already.

If you absolutely must have a self-heal I'd probably go with Illusion of Weakness or Parasitic Bond since you've got points in illusion & curses anyway.

My necro still takes an occasional maelstrom when the monk loses coldfire agro. It doesn't happen often, but necro's should be prepared for the situation should Murphy's Laws decide it's your (un)lucky day

This can happen for many unforseen reasons, including lag, AI pathing bugs, monk moving positions after agro is established, etc. Just be prepared.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tigernz

I like to bring along Desecrate Enchantments to speed the killing while I'm waiting on Spiteful to recharge. For some reason I'm getting bonus damage when using it on Aatxes...anyone know why since they're never enchanted?
Against smites & coldfires it works really well as they have enchants up more often than not.

*EDIT* I also bring Pwr drain & leech sig for sneaky NM's who pop up when the monk isn't ready

Desicrate is a must-bring in my book. 74-150+ AE dmg for 10 energy... Too good for me to ignore. It chews through smites, colds, and terrors with very big teeth.

Undead Preacher · Jan 07, 2006, 05:50 AM // 05:50

TY guys, i'm going to modify my build!

Kcp · Jan 08, 2006, 11:37 AM // 11:37

Desecrate enchants on a smite that has divine intervention, zealots, and shield of judgement...almost like the 4th of july. If u want to be silly you could archane echo Desecrate enchants and destroy smites that way too. Try it they get tore up, and recharge isnt bad on DE either so you can use it regularly if you have any skill recharge.

Undead Preacher · Jan 09, 2006, 02:45 AM // 02:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kcp

Desecrate enchants on a smite that has divine intervention, zealots, and shield of judgement...almost like the 4th of july. If u want to be silly you could archane echo Desecrate enchants and destroy smites that way too. Try it they get tore up, and recharge isnt bad on DE either so you can use it regularly if you have any skill recharge.

Yea works like a charm, i recently modified my build, i'll modify it on here shortly!

ChoKILLate[FDG] · Jan 10, 2006, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Use SV on Aataxes also. It keeps them from building adrenaline so that they can't use disrupting chop or riposte/deadly riposte. Disrupting chop is #1 reason why monks die.

IF monk dies, they can simply change -50 off hand to something else or remove their extra Superior rune. When up against only 2 aataxes, 105hp is the better build anyways.

sno · Jan 10, 2006, 11:22 PM // 23:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChoKILLate[FDG]

Use SV on Aataxes also. It keeps them from building adrenaline so that they can't use disrupting chop or riposte/deadly riposte. Disrupting chop is #1 reason why monks die.

IF monk dies, they can simply change -50 off hand to something else or remove their extra Superior rune. When up against only 2 aataxes, 105hp is the better build anyways.

Um.... That's completely wrong

. The #1 reason monks die in the UW is from nightmares, followed up by interupts/energy loss with graspings and coldfire maelstroms. Any half-decent monk can hold his own with any number of aatxes on him at once, for an indefinite period of time. Aatxes don't interupt often, and the monk shouldn't be hitting anyways, so riposte doesn't effect them. A good monk will overlap his casting (not wait for things to blink,) which will give him enough time to recast even if things do get interupted. SV is very useful against graspings (due to high volume interupts, and massive energy-loss from Fear Me!) but is simply unnecessary against Aatxes. With a good pattern, a group of aatxes will die with 2 spitefuls and 1 desecrate (if grouped well.) Any spells other than that are a waste of time (with my build that is, if you're not bringing AtB you'll need a bit of extra damage to finish them off, like suffering, or another ss.)

Undead Preacher · Jan 11, 2006, 03:41 AM // 03:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by sno

Um.... That's completely wrong

. The #1 reason monks die in the UW is from nightmares, followed up by interupts/energy loss with graspings and coldfire maelstroms. Any half-decent monk can hold his own with any number of aatxes on him at once, for an indefinite period of time. Aatxes don't interupt often, and the monk shouldn't be hitting anyways, so riposte doesn't effect them. A good monk will overlap his casting (not wait for things to blink,) which will give him enough time to recast even if things do get interupted. SV is very useful against graspings (due to high volume interupts, and massive energy-loss from Fear Me!) but is simply unnecessary against Aatxes. With a good pattern, a group of aatxes will die with 2 spitefuls and 1 desecrate (if grouped well.) Any spells other than that are a waste of time (with my build that is, if you're not bringing AtB you'll need a bit of extra damage to finish them off, like suffering, or another ss.)

^^^^^^^^^
AGREED

* may be the first time SNO(that we agree on something, lol), but you are completely right!!
SV on with Aataxes is pointless and a waste of energy, if a 55 needs SV for Aataxes then they should really think about changing their build

I run a 55hp build also so I know that SV is NOT needed for them, simply waste of 10 energy.... As echo SS/SV and my new modified build I have 2 interupts and I usually interupt them anyway!!

Glints Bane · Jan 11, 2006, 02:52 PM // 14:52

ok call me stupid but im kinda new to ss/sv but in the place af BR i use suffering is that a bad choice?

Undead Preacher · Jan 11, 2006, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glints Bane

ok call me stupid but im kinda new to ss/sv but in the place af BR i use suffering is that a bad choice?

I personally HATE bringing BR and it seems the only time I use it is in the very beginning before the first aggro when the 55 first puts up their enchantments... or maybe after a 1 on 1.....

I recently MODIFIED this build, i will post the modified version... I NO longer bring BR unless a 55 request it...

As far as suffering..... for 15 energy.... I find it a waste....I'll post my NEW build!

Undead Preacher · Jan 11, 2006, 06:24 PM // 18:24

I posted my new modified build so please check it out!

ChoKILLate[FDG] · Jan 11, 2006, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Are some monks not bring any attack skills? One I was with last night had Essense bond, Baltharzars spirit, Blessed signet, and Bonetti. You should never need that much energy! I would bring shield of judgement and zealots with me. Then every group should drop much faster.

When I solo as a monk I never run out of energy and I can still do damage. As a monk I bring 2 weapon builds with me. One puts me at 105hp with more energy and longer enchantments (50% longer). The other puts me at 55hp. A good monk should know when to switch between the two.

As a necro, when we get to the smites I use archane echo on SV not SS and then click the second one when the first is half way recharged.

Undead Preacher · Jan 11, 2006, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChoKILLate[FDG]

Are some monks not bring any attack skills? One I was with last night had Essense bond, Baltharzars spirit, Blessed signet, and Bonetti. You should never need that much energy! I would bring shield of judgement and zealots with me. Then every group should drop much faster.

When I solo as a monk I never run out of energy and I can still do damage. As a monk I bring 2 weapon builds with me. One puts me at 105hp with more energy and longer enchantments (50% longer). The other puts me at 55hp. A good monk should know when to switch between the two.

As a necro, when we get to the smites I use archane echo on SV not SS and then click the second one when the first is half way recharged.

monks need spellbreaker for 2 man runs, not shield of judgement, and the reason they are 2 man runs is the monk tanks(all defensive) and the necro kills(offensive)

Of coarse you echo sv for smites.... its right in the first post of this thread!

sno · Jan 11, 2006, 08:29 PM // 20:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChoKILLate[FDG]

Are some monks not bring any attack skills? One I was with last night had Essense bond, Baltharzars spirit, Blessed signet, and Bonetti. You should never need that much energy! I would bring shield of judgement and zealots with me. Then every group should drop much faster.

When I solo as a monk I never run out of energy and I can still do damage. As a monk I bring 2 weapon builds with me. One puts me at 105hp with more energy and longer enchantments (50% longer). The other puts me at 55hp. A good monk should know when to switch between the two.

As a necro, when we get to the smites I use archane echo on SV not SS and then click the second one when the first is half way recharged.

Congratulations on the most inefficient UW strategy ever.

Quote:

I would bring shield of judgement and zealots with me.

Assuming you could deal with nightmares (which you can't,) the damage with shield of judgement and zealots doesn't make up for the attack speed lost by the monsters getting knocked down every time they hit you. The monks job in the 2man build is to aggro the monsters (without dying) in such a way that the necro can kill them quickly. Theres absolutely no reason for a monk to be doing damage.

Quote:

As a necro, when we get to the smites I use archane echo on SV

Echoing SV implies that it takes you more than the ~15 seconds of the first SV to hex your targets. All you need to do is drain their energy long enough to get 2 spitefuls up followed by a cover for both (generally suffering.) After that's done it doesn't matter how much energy they have. Smites have such low hp that 2 spitefuls and a desecrate is more than enough to drop all of them in a nice flop. It takes ~15seconds to kill all of them, and they should be dropping just as SV falls. If they're not then you either a: have a bad build or b: have bad timing.

Or you could simply continue running your current strategy and spend 45 minutes on a single smite run. That'll keep the price of ecto up for those of us who know how to really farm them. Up to you

.

lord_shar · Jan 12, 2006, 12:50 AM // 00:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by sno

...<SNIP>...

Assuming you could deal with nightmares (which you can't,) the damage with shield of judgement and zealots doesn't make up for the attack speed lost by the monsters getting knocked down every time they hit you. The monks job in the 2man build is to aggro the monsters (without dying) in such a way that the necro can kill them quickly. Theres absolutely no reason for a monk to be doing damage.

I found someone who dealt with nightmares without SB... would you believe his answer was Sprint??? He would cast his enchants, agro the aatxe + nightmares, then trigger sprint. The nightmares would still suicide via stripping his enchants, but now all that were left were Aatxe, happy at their original spawn points. If multiple nightmares popped, then he simply repeated the process until they were gone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sno

Echoing SV implies that it takes you more than the ~15 seconds of the first SV to hex your targets. All you need to do is drain their energy long enough to get 2 spitefuls up followed by a cover for both (generally suffering.) After that's done it doesn't matter how much energy they have. Smites have such low hp that 2 spitefuls and a desecrate is more than enough to drop all of them in a nice flop. It takes ~15seconds to kill all of them, and they should be dropping just as SV falls. If they're not then you either a: have a bad build or b: have bad timing.

...<SNIP>...

Usually, only one SS is needed to finish of each smite cluster. The problem is that the SS-bearing smite tends to die and leave a few survivors with <80 health still kicking. However, this also puts the survivors well within Desicrate's kill zone, so the only real task is to protect SS long enough for it to run its course. The safe thing to do is cast SS + a fast cover hex after the smites have been energy-drained, then maintain your SV energy-lock and let SS do its job. You must still cast 1 SS per smite cluster if the monk doesn't get them all in a single kill pack.

Suffering usually draws immediate smite hex spam, and given its slow casting cost, long recharge time, and 15 energy casting cost, it isn't a good cover hex.