Curse

Eaimirth Etaivella · May 25, 2006, 06:34 PM // 18:34

We all know of how SS has been adopted into the pve player's idea of perfect trinity (tank, damage dealer, healer) so groups now tend to look like this
Tank
Monk
SS

Or at more complex levels
Tank
Bonder
Healer
SS
Minion master

Despite the overwhelming power of shatter hex (which no one really seems to notice) it struck me last night an interesting idea that would not be overpowering in pvp but would make a large difference in pve (for mesmers)

What if empathy hit adjacent foes?
pros
-would significantly increase mesmer's popularity in pve
-might be able to get a pug for a change
-might get some respect in pve

cons
-might become sterotypical
-might be overpowered in some way

Just a thought (which I admit I havn't throught through all the way, spur of the moment if you will)

Jetdoc · May 25, 2006, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Empathy would then need to be an elite skill, and would be almost identical to SS (other than not affecting casters).

SS Necros also have the ability to Blood Ritual the monk and to drop wells when needed, two skills that both monks and warriors look for.

To me, I'd rather have a Mesmer over a Necro in PvE any day of the week, but until mesmers have solid skills to provide others with support energy/healing, they won't be as popular in mainstream.

Eaimirth Etaivella · May 25, 2006, 10:04 PM // 22:04

Well SS will still do 41 per action compared to the 31 per attack.
So thusly
A.echo+echo+empathy->93/attack (3 skill slots)
A.echo+SS+awaken->82/action (3 skill slots)

Difference of 11 damage does not seem overpowering; especially considering the frequency that stances/spells/other are being used in current pve with release of factions. The two would be practically equal.

While pvp would remain virtually unchanged (bunny thumpers+warrior/rangers would suffer...alittle)

Trylo · May 25, 2006, 10:08 PM // 22:08

You would have to make the enemy AI scatter then...

Yes, it is overpowering. SS doesnt do 41 either? or do u mean with AtB?

Eaimirth Etaivella · May 26, 2006, 03:07 AM // 03:07

Of course I mean with awaken! (see math above =p 3skills vs 3 skills)
SS does not make the AI scatter (although it should imo...)
It would only be 10 more damage (AND skills will not trigger it; so maybe less than ss damage)

So it would on some levels make the two skills equals; in a weird mesmer mimic necromancer sort of way which we have seen in other skills
shame vs mark
soul leech vs backfire

Terra Xin · May 26, 2006, 03:36 AM // 03:36

yeah I think ss sould be nerfed to scatter too.

Empathy wave

oh hey! you know what would be cool? Having a spell that works like fevered dreams, but with hexes

drool.... so much pooower.

Eaimirth Etaivella · May 26, 2006, 04:03 AM // 04:03

Now that would be overpowered >.>

Avarre · May 26, 2006, 05:25 AM // 05:25

Would be cool, but result in a subsequent reduction of damage, longer recharge, or elite status, which would make it worse.

If you really want a skill to buff, do something about Conjure phantasm... aoe degen!

robrobrob · May 26, 2006, 06:12 AM // 06:12

I think empathy is good as it is. I know it's frustrating as a Mesmer to have empathy and be neutered by a Necro's SS, but empathy is still good.

Since Avarre brings up Phantasm, does anybody actually use Conjure Nightmare, or plan to?? Sorry for going off-topic...

Terra Xin · May 26, 2006, 08:26 AM // 08:26

Nightmare is being discussed in other threads, but in summary, it makes... an OK addition to Auspicious incantation, and signet builds... i suppose. I calculated that you are effectively paying an extra 9 energy for +3 pips of degen when compared to phantasm. Not worth it.

AoE degen = suffering. If you can come up with a good Mesmer skill that is similar to that, kudo's to you. 25 energy??? omg...

Hella Good · May 26, 2006, 08:47 AM // 08:47

You know, I think the game needs more AoE degen. It's pretty much only Necros and a few Ele and Ranger skills that give AoE degen. Would be nice if we got smth like that but we'll have to wait for Ch 3 to see if we will actually get it.

And Empathy... Empathy is perfectly fine- a lovely skill actually. I wouldn't want it to be AoE. I wouldn't mind a 5s recharge tho.

Eaimirth Etaivella · May 26, 2006, 04:22 PM // 16:22

But the point remains that mesmers really need something to make them stand out abit more in pve (excluding shatter hex and cry of frustration)

Hella Good · May 26, 2006, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Talk about a class that needs something to stand out in PvE, I have much more to say about Assassins than Mesmers. Interrupts and Hex Management have been the focus of ANet's development of Mesmers in PvE. I'm fine with it. Mesmers are dominating PvP, I see weaker PvE side as a nice trade-off. I'd rather kill real people than monsters- it's more challenging. But then that's just me.

Fast cast Ele will always be the thing Mesmers are most likely to find groups as. If you want greater PvE functionality, just do that.

Eaimirth Etaivella · May 26, 2006, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Considering elementalist damage sucks in pve...(AND pvp...)
-and that fast cast mesmers suck even more...(in both as well)
*attempts to demolish every fc nuker/pve degen mesmer on sight
**in addition there is a certain amount of pride in playing the mesmer class; the most difficult class to play in guildwars. By no means will I (or should any other mesmer) play with every skill on their bar from their secondary profession. Its simply rubbish saying I can't play a mesmer; I give up, I am worthless. I cannot play my profession, but instead of trying to learn I am going to try to do something I can never do-a whale cannot grow wings. In short I am not only offended but revolted by your post hella.

I'm not asking for what I believe to be much. Every other class has a call for both pve and pvp ('cept sins but personally I think thats just because they have become the new wammo).

AoE degen is not the answer to this problem as 20 dps aoe is nothing compared to the 41 dps that the necromancers have per casting of SS.

A buff to empathy in this mannor should not give it the elite status (if you compared it to the necro's ss it would just downright suck all of a sudden...seriously) 31=/=41 attack=/=action and even if you tri-cast it (via double echo) ss may still be better. So I think would be a very "good" way to bring mesmer into the pve game plan. I liked the aoe degen idea but degen is just not the kind of damage we need as a class; taking at least twice as long to kill a group as a single ss, four times as long if it was echoed...and thats at a max of 10pips.

Still looking for other ideas though; having conjure with in the location seems promising.

Hella Good · May 26, 2006, 10:07 PM // 22:07

It isn't a matter of refusing to use Mesmer skills, it is a matter of Mesmer skills being PvP-oriented (for the most part), not PvE. Why? Because the majority of skills are geared towards severely disabling either the attack or casting abilities of a single target. Mesmers are not totally helpless in PvE, it's just that PvP is where the profession shines. And that's fine. If you want a PvE buff, a PvP nerf is to be expected. Which is absolutely NOT fine with me. I am also pretty happy with the current state of things. Crying over spilled milk never got anyone anywhere.

Seriously, your claims are getting more and more extravagant with every new post you come up with. Empathy is fine. Perfectly fine.

Siddious · May 26, 2006, 10:39 PM // 22:39

I don't think they should make empathy AOE, as that would be the same as SS but worse and would possible turn the spell into an elite which we don't want. I love empathy it rocks, but I find it abit unfair compared to SS. I think they should increase empathys damage to the same as SS or make it just so empathy causes damage to the foe if he casts and attacks, just to make the skill more balanced in my opinion.

Eaimirth Etaivella · May 26, 2006, 11:15 PM // 23:15

Hmm...then according to hella's standards monks need a big nerf in either pvp or pve...cause they are needed in both ya know (usally I find them overrated, but I must admit 1 is a good idea)

Hella Good · May 27, 2006, 12:03 AM // 00:03

They are getting nerfs. Constantly. Boon got a few hits just recently with higher recharge Mend Ailment, double recharge on CoP, and higher sac OoB (It is finally a Necro only elite, as it was probably intended to be). And altho it is true that Monks are equally valuable in both game format, they do not excell in either. Mesmers, on the other hand, do excell in PvP.

Eaimirth Etaivella · May 27, 2006, 12:44 AM // 00:44

So let me get this straight.
You think that:
Mesmers excel only in pvp
Monks excel in pve and pvp
Warriors excel in pve and pvp
Eles excel in pve and pvp
Necros excel in pve and pvp
Rangers excel in pve and pvp

And you think this is fair? I don't.
So I completely lost your track of logic with "if pve gets a buff pvp must get a nerf" As giving empathy "adjacent" affects pvp in almost no way at all.

Avarre · May 27, 2006, 12:49 AM // 00:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella

*attempts to demolish every fc nuker/pve degen mesmer on sight

fc nukers are very good in low armor, low level areas! For exploring with hench!

There are only three skills worth using in a degen build:

Mantra of Recovery
Conjure phantasm
Images of remorse

This way, you wouldn't hit the degen cap, and due to fast recharges you would be able to apply degen in a rapid widespread pattern. Empathy is superior, but only on melee mobs. Areas I would use degen in are places with many more fragile enemies (ToPK, Elite missions) whereas empathy and dom skills are for FoW/UW.

With a double application of hexes in 2 targetting rounds, all enemies will be at 9dp/s within 2.5(monster amount), and 18 within twice that. The only advantage is with a large number of enemies, the total damage dealt is significant on mobs that are not being targetted - overall reducing their health by about 15%+ before they are even attacked. This immediately gives you 1/6 of the damage dealt at least, using three skills. Then you have 5 more for interrupt, enemy management, whatever else.

Quote:

So let me get this straight.
You think that:
Mesmers excel only in pvp

No, I think you are wrong and will not admit it because mesmers can't deal the same DPs as a SS necro. After playing both extensively, I haven't really noticed a lack of capability switching from my necro to my mesmer...