Curse

Xasew · May 18, 2006, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella

Someone didn't read my post.

Someone isn't playing serious PvP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella

SQ can loop into itself and be kept up continously.

No it can't. The recharge is 45 seconds and there's nothing you can do about it without QZ.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella

MoR is a stance, it does cost 10 energy, it is an elite, thus many mesmers (such as myself) DO NOT want it. Now if it costed 5 energy; yea I would use it-but not 24/7. As it is now it is nothing more than a gimmic build, a build to be killed by warriors, interrupt rangers, all with the dead little mesmers saying "HA! They won't be using those skills for a whole minute!" like that matters as you won't be using any of your skills for the rest of the game.

Wait, are you seriously judging skills by RANDOM ARENA? In GvG you have Monks to deal with the damage you receive. And the ability to throw Shame every 15 seconds makes a Warrior spike so many times more lethal it's not even funny.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella

SQ is a good skill, many people use it with no points in it-it is that good. And yes MoR is in the FC line, an attribute line where the diminishing returns make it the worst primary in the game. So personally I don't see your arguement. MoR should be 5 energy, and you completely left out blackout in your post above. SQ+BO ttyl; have your little "Diversion+MoR spam" stay in the random arenas; and lets see how many times you die before the warrior runs out of skills.

Yes, let's spam Blackout, that will certainly not get us killed when we're running in the frontline without the ability to protect ourselves with Distortion or anything at all. I haven't said a word about Diversion, but I'm pretty sure that would work effectively, too.

Unless I'm understanding something very wrong here, it seems as if you're not judging the skill by 8v8. In 8v8 not being able to Infuse for a minute is one hell of a bad thing if you ask me. Or what if for a minute the enemy can't use Backbreaker? Use MoR+Diversion, Drain Ether Prodigy and stick Diversion right when it recharges: 8 times out of 10 the guy puts EP back as soon as Diversion ends and you catch it with the second Diversion. 1 minute of no Blinding Flash is one hell of a thing to accomplish if you ask me.

Pozeidon · May 18, 2006, 06:40 PM // 18:40

I have been looking at MoR too as an alternative, if you want to spam diversion some what, you can run a glyph mesmer and glyph diversion. I like it cos you can glyph whatver skill is most effective depending on what your going against. You need to double shatter and such. If you run power drain and drain enchant with 9 to 10 in inspiration you shouldnt have energy problems. But the reason I like MoR recently is cos you can run a me/mo and take some support for the team i.e. draw, hard res, etc.

I have to disagree with the statement diversion is a bad skill. Diversion is great especially when you catch monks; RoF, PS, Edrain, MoR. You can also be very effective against offensive players slowing down some hexing or dmg.

Have problems interrupting with Power Drain, find an ele or necro you will almost guarantee getting your energy.

CrispyCritter · May 18, 2006, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Honestly I wouldn't use Distortion and MoR in the same build. I use Blackout, and this is great for defending against warriors. Even if they're not attacking me, I can still black them out and cause them to lose all of their adrenaline, which screws their adrenal spike.

I generally don't like using skills like Spirit of Failure without cover hexes, as they just tend to get removed unless you're running a hex heavy build. '

Power Leak IS very powerful, but I find it hard to use against boon prots, as they will only occasionally cast 1s spells, and I generally find that I spend most of my time screwing with the opposing team's offense as opposed to their monks.

Diversion spam is useful, but I mainly use Diversion for shutting down key skills, such as Draw Conditions or Blinding Flash. Just spam it a few times until you hit the skill you wanted to shut down, and then move on to your next target. Although getting RoF diverted really sucks for a boon prot.

As for Power Drain vs. E-tap, E-tap is certainly more reliable, but I use Power Drain because I don't like being without an interrupt on my bar. I generally end up using it on mesmers, necros, or eles, as I run this build in GvG.

I have no problems with Drain Enchant; I've even used this as energy management on a monk, and it doesn't seem all that situational since you can almost always find someone with an enchantment.

Honestly, I think that with the recent update, MoR is overpowered, and I'm amazed I don't see more mesmers running it.

fatboyslimerr · May 18, 2006, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Thank you Cripsy Critter. Finally someone else acknowleding how good MoR has become. I think diversion is a great skill (was having fun with MoR+diversion muhahaha) yeh but possibly not that great in a MoR build. I truely love it when I managed to get a monk usin' RoF or RC (if my team is condition spammin') its just fantastic. Blackout is also a fantastic skill, I love that too but since its not a spell, I don't think its great in MoR build either. Standard esurge build I use usually has diversion and blackout in it but for this new monster, MoR super fantastic max energy denying pimp, I don't think diversion and blackout are best suited if my goal of being maximum e-denial.

Glyph mesmers are good, but I still prefer MoR. In all honesty I think this skill was made for me.

In HA, less skilled teams don't worry too much about warriors being hexed if they ain't losing health so spirit of failure works a charm. Obviously in skilled teams it'll need to be covered so you could partner up with a degen mesmer (phantasm spammer) or a hex spammin' necro or something. Obviously in GvG I work with a degen mesmer who will cover spirit of failure with images of remorse or something (and another hex if enemies have expel hexes).

Crispy critters appears to be on the level, mesmers should have at least one interrupt, p. drain is great energy management skill but power leak (mentioned this lots of times) is my favourite interrupt by a long way. So I stick with E-Tap as it becomes a whole lot better with 12 second recharge.

If your gonna spam blackout Eaimirth, and its great fun doing this, I recommend Echo {E} + Blackout. If you have blackout at foes skills disabled for 7 seconds, it would work like this. Cast Echo, use blackout -- 7 seconds later use echoed blackout, original blackout should now be recharged. Repeat as neccessary. This would be one time when ether lord might be an option. Cast before using blackout to gain energy while blacked out.

There is one problem in using MoR build which is pretty annoying. If your gettin' bashed a bit and you need to run away or retreat a bit but also still be affective, its hard to maintain MoR meaning some skills have short recharge, others have normal recharge. This often means I'm stuck with energy requiring skills while my energy gain skills are recharing. It doesn't happen very often and it can be avoided by getting into a rhyme of pressing MoR (number 1 on my skill bar) although I often end up with about 10 energy, so spirit of failure is vital here.

Eaimirth Etaivella · May 18, 2006, 09:46 PM // 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xasew

Someone isn't playing serious PvP.

No it can't. The recharge is 45 seconds and there's nothing you can do about it without QZ.

Wait, are you seriously judging skills by RANDOM ARENA? In GvG you have Monks to deal with the damage you receive. And the ability to throw Shame every 15 seconds makes a Warrior spike so many times more lethal it's not even funny.

Yes, let's spam Blackout, that will certainly not get us killed when we're running in the frontline without the ability to protect ourselves with Distortion or anything at all. I haven't said a word about Diversion, but I'm pretty sure that would work effectively, too.

Unless I'm understanding something very wrong here, it seems as if you're not judging the skill by 8v8. In 8v8 not being able to Infuse for a minute is one hell of a bad thing if you ask me. Or what if for a minute the enemy can't use Backbreaker? Use MoR+Diversion, Drain Ether Prodigy and stick Diversion right when it recharges: 8 times out of 10 the guy puts EP back as soon as Diversion ends and you catch it with the second Diversion. 1 minute of no Blinding Flash is one hell of a thing to accomplish if you ask me.

Let me knock someone on their ass by showing them the stupidity of their math.
Straight from Wiki
Progression
Wilderness Survival 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
Duration 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31

Rank 15...30 seconds
45x.66=29.7 seconds to recharge
Thank you; come again; do your math, come back after you finish kindergarden.

Now that I have that off my back; lets get on to some of the other arguements. Shame...a hex spell...recharge 30...
2 counters on boon prots
1. CoP
2. Holy veil
Those are only "self" fixes, with the new mesmer elite; yea hex removal is going to be a BIG problem in gvg.

You referenced me not having experience in high level gvg...come again? Alright I will let that one pass (for now) but what you follow it up with is just downright stupid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xasew

Use MoR+Diversion, Drain Ether Prodigy and stick Diversion right when it recharges: 8 times out of 10 the guy puts EP back as soon as Diversion ends and you catch it with the second Diversion. 1 minute of no Blinding Flash is one hell of a thing to accomplish if you ask me.

So in high level gvg...you drain the enchantment; then spend 1.5 seconds casting diversion on them. Considering they notice that the enchantment is gone almost instantly (and they would; hell their whole team would know considering the hp loss) and the fact that it has a 1sec cast time...they would beat you to it. Or situation B, they see you casting diversion and hold off for 6 seconds or ping it to have it removed. Or situation C, assuming they saw the diversion hit them mid cast, they cancel their spell and hold off for 6 seconds; the time it would take them not to see the diversion ping up on their hex bar (we will be generous) would be 1/4 of a second.

Right; you do that. You disable EP by doing that against a high level guild in gvg playing a ranked match in some tourny and provide a video to prove it; I will buy you FoW.

Edit-yes I know of the BO+echo combo; just using a counter example to make a point.

Cherng Butter · May 19, 2006, 01:09 AM // 01:09

MoR has to be the best skill for energy denial. I run:

13 FC (11+2)
14 Insp (10+4)
11 Dom (10+1)

Yeah i know its a sup and major, just take a hale staff of fortitude

MoR
Feedback
Etap
Eburn
Shame
Diversion/Remove Hex (i found that diversion spam was sorta hard to maintain even w/ 14 inspiration, but it's still useful)
Drain Enchant
Resurrect/Res Sig

this utterly destroys the typical boons you find because of their usage of enchants...you could switch feedback w/ SoW and spec in domination for diversion spam as well, I'm not sure which one is better

Dragannia · May 19, 2006, 01:18 AM // 01:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella

Let me knock someone on their ass by showing them the stupidity of their math.
Straight from Wiki
Progression
Wilderness Survival 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
Duration 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31

Rank 15...30 seconds
45x.66=29.7 seconds to recharge
Thank you; come again; do your math, come back after you finish kindergarden.

Straight from Wiki. You would also know that Serpent's Quickness does not recharge itself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella

Now that I have that off my back; lets get on to some of the other arguements. Shame...a hex spell...recharge 30...
2 counters on boon prots
1. CoP
2. Holy veil
Those are only "self" fixes, with the new mesmer elite; yea hex removal is going to be a BIG problem in gvg.

You referenced me not having experience in high level gvg...come again? Alright I will let that one pass (for now) but what you follow it up with is just downright stupid.

The point of Shame and Diversion is to catch the enemy at their spells. With MoR recharging them, their low recharge makes up for a miss. Constant pressure, with the likes of Wastrel's Worry, also enchances their ability. Casting Diversion might not even be noticed as the enemy casts Reversal or such, if you catch them within the first few seconds of its duration.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella

So in high level gvg...you drain the enchantment; then spend 1.5 seconds casting diversion on them. Considering they notice that the enchantment is gone almost instantly (and they would; hell their whole team would know considering the hp loss) and the fact that it has a 1sec cast time...they would beat you to it. Or situation B, they see you casting diversion and hold off for 6 seconds or ping it to have it removed. Or situation C, assuming they saw the diversion hit them mid cast, they cancel their spell and hold off for 6 seconds; the time it would take them not to see the diversion ping up on their hex bar (we will be generous) would be 1/4 of a second.

What spells could possibly have midcast times of more than 1 second worth Diversioning? Once again, the point of Diversion is to catch their key skills before they can respond. A 1 second cast time is usually too fast for them to hit ESC, if you hit them midcast.

Eaimirth Etaivella · May 19, 2006, 01:31 AM // 01:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragannia

Straight from Wiki. You would also know that Serpent's Quickness does not recharge itself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella

One costs less energy, works with skills (aka everything), can be kept up continously with a jump (SQ flipped onto itself so it gets the recharge bonus) and rangers get it.

Stop wasting my time.

Debating against you is not only pointless but it now amuses me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragannia

A 1 second cast time is usually too fast for them to hit ESC, if you hit them midcast.

Diversion has a 3 second cast time; it is impossable to "catch" someone with it unless you know that a spell is going to be cast exactly 1.5 seconds from the point of casting without a 1/4second (I'm being very generous) margin of error. Unless that happens (and it won't) you won't be diversion'ing anything anytime soon. 1 second too fast for them to hit escape? Are you kidding me? I can (and many other mesmers can) interrupt 3/4sec spells; a la faster than 1second cast times +the cast time of the interrupt. Yet you seem perfectly content in telling me that it is impossable for another "high level" player to interrupt his own spell, which doesn't even have a cast time, an entire second as he fumbles around the keyboard looking for whatever button he assigned "cancel".

Stop wasting my time.

Diversion is nothing more than a possable 6 second lockdown
Blackout is a definate 7 second lockdown
Diversion gives them a choice; albeit an often bad choice, it is still a strategic choice that one should not often give the enamy. If anyone is "caught" casting into diversion, guilt, or shame in high level gvg it is because they are inexperienced or they ment to cast through it. If they so choose to cast through it; it is because not doing so would be more costly. In short that is why I do not like diversion and I consider it a bad skill; it presents a strategic choice to the opponent; a choice that should not be offered.

Xasew · May 19, 2006, 06:45 AM // 06:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella

Can be kept up continously with a jump.

No it can't. Go to the Isle of the Nameless and use SQ, it won't recharge itself faster ffs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella

Diversion is nothing more than a possible 6 second lockdown
Blackout is a definate 7 second lockdown

This isn't about Diversion vs. Blackout. Blackout has lots of cons too, I'm sure you are aware of it.
1. Kiting counters it.
2. Everyone sees when you come to cast it even without targeting you.
3. You can't participate in the spike because you get blacked out, too.
Both have their good and bad sides, I'm not gonna argue about that, because I use both.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella

Now that I have that off my back; lets get on to some of the other arguements. Shame...a hex spell...recharge 30...
2 counters on boon prots
1. CoP
2. Holy veil
Those are only "self" fixes, with the new mesmer elite; yea hex removal is going to be a BIG problem in gvg.

Yes, using CoP to get rid of your Boon when a target gets spiked isn't risky at all. If I see that it takes a year to cast my hex, I stop it and drain the Holy Veil first.
And btw my whole argument was that with MoR the recharge is 15 and makes the spell deadly.

Xasew · May 19, 2006, 06:54 AM // 06:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella

Right; you do that. You disable EP by doing that against a high level guild in gvg playing a ranked match in some tourny and provide a video to prove it; I will buy you FoW.

People fall for that all the time. And I'm talking about people in the top50. If you want to discuss about the god-like top10 or something, that's another story.

Eaimirth Etaivella · May 19, 2006, 11:36 AM // 11:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xasew

No it can't. Go to the Isle of the Nameless and use SQ, it won't recharge itself faster ffs.

Ok looks like I'm going to have to slowly explain it to someone.

Cast echo
Cast Serpents Quickness
Cast Serpents Quickness again

You now have a SQ that recharges 33% faster (jump)

Vola~ you are no longer naive

Xasew · May 19, 2006, 11:54 AM // 11:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella

Ok looks like I'm going to have to slowly explain it to someone.

Cast echo
Cast Serpents Quickness
Cast Serpents Quickness again

You now have a SQ that recharges 33% faster (jump)

It's great that you never mentioned Echo before this...

Let me get this straight, you're wasting an elite to use it on SQ to get a result worse than MoR??
Assuming 10 in WS:
Assuming that SQ affects Echo's recharge(probably will, but Echo has a weird recharge so you can never be sure), you'll still get 5 seconds of downtime between the 2nd and 3rd SQ, not to mention you use 2 skillslots and the other one is elite. SQ can still end if your health drops below 50%. And it's still only 33% recharge reduction, not 50%.
Using Echo+SQ is one of the worst ideas I've heard.

Avarre · May 19, 2006, 12:10 PM // 12:10

I'm thinking of submitting this thread into 'People who make you Laugh' over at riverside.

holden · May 19, 2006, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella

Ok looks like I'm going to have to slowly explain it to someone.

Cast echo
Cast Serpents Quickness
Cast Serpents Quickness again

You now have a SQ that recharges 33% faster (jump)

Vola~ you are no longer naive

you have been spewing all this sq crap and this is what you're gonna rest your case on?

your build puts points into a secondary attribute that you only pull one skill from and you waste your elite on echo.

or you could just take MoR and keep in a mesmer line. maybe even use more skills from the attribute.

fatboyslimerr · May 19, 2006, 03:47 PM // 15:47

lol, good plan avarre. How can you possibly even consider using SQ as a mesmer. GET OVER IT. Even with Echo {E} which is even more stupid, its still not as good as MoR, although the true affects of MoR aren't felt until 14 FC. Lasts 19 seconds, plus you get pretty much every spell (bar diversion) off in less than a second.

I could be wrong but if you use shame on a monk and they use CoP, won't that trigger shame ???, thus the whole point of shame ?? it can only be removed by a team mate, not self removed. This is why shame is one of my favourite skills and its awesomeness just about doubles with a 15 second recharge.

As for diversion, it gives the enemy an option but you should make them always opt to cast during diversion. For example plan a spike or something or spam conditions (whatever it is your team does) and if they're using martyr or prot spirit, they will most likely sacrifice that skill to save a team mate. So after your diversion spike 'patents pending' you hit 'em with the real spike while they're anti spike or anti condition skill is disabled. Of course there is much more to strategic use of diversion but if your using diversion it should always cause one of their skills to be disabled. -- Quick tip I found, if your team has warriors, boon prots love to use RoF against warriors. So you get your teams warriors to get enemy boon prot (sneaky diversion, possibly cover with something scary or just standard wastrel's worry) then boom they use RoF and its disabled for 50+ seconds, sorted.

Blackout - fantastic skill and you should use it when sacrificing your skills for 5 seconds will have a greater affect than you would have in that 5 seconds, and since it lasts for 7 seconds, I love casting shame on that foe as soon as my skills aren't disabled anymore (should finish castin' same time as their skills become useable). Although I'm still stickin' with the fact that I don't think blackout is that great in a MoR build. Shame spammin' (every 15 seconds) is highly recommended however.

Finally, I've mentioned this somewhere before, a mesmer should generally carry at least one interrupt. Power leak (don't get my started on its awesomeness) is the one I use. So if you drain EP, they go for the recast, you use power leak then diversion, this should work well (plus I think diversion casts in 1 and a 1/4 seconds with 14 FC but I'm not sure on that). I'm also glad someone reminded me of feedback. This (however long its recharge is) will surely benefit from MoR and totally screw boon prots over. Great stuff.

Eaimirth, I'd be interested to know how long u'd be willing to be openly hostile defending your idea that a combo that u probably now realise is pretty crap, is in fact better than this wonderful new elite that Anet has pimped out for us 'faster thinking' mesmers.

Pozeidon · May 19, 2006, 03:54 PM // 15:54

I played around with Serpents Quickness, but didnt really like it to much. Still think MoR is better, but have to experiment more with it. Also if you want to spam skills like diversion, shame, guilt, etc. You can still run the glyph mesmer, with glyph of renewal and gale is always nice touch too since you got the Ele secondary.

Eaimirth Etaivella · May 19, 2006, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xasew

It's great that you never mentioned Echo before this...

Let me get this straight, you're wasting an elite to use it on SQ to get a result worse than MoR??
Assuming 10 in WS:
Assuming that SQ affects Echo's recharge(probably will, but Echo has a weird recharge so you can never be sure), you'll still get 5 seconds of downtime between the 2nd and 3rd SQ, not to mention you use 2 skillslots and the other one is elite. SQ can still end if your health drops below 50%. And it's still only 33% recharge reduction, not 50%.
Using Echo+SQ is one of the worst ideas I've heard.

This goes to all the people with like posts (I just got the one closest)
I said a jump-this includes the following skills
OathShot
Echo
Zypher
etc...
I just used echo as an example; I swear some people are so one-sighted that they cannot possibly consider alternatives. I find it absolutely humorous really; as for my choice I would take oathshot but thats just my preference.

Now back to my point. I never suggested using SQ on a mesmer (one you couldn't loop it; but some people didn't do the math {or read my posts} and apparantly didn't figure that out by themselves). I am comparing the two skills as only skills; SQ is easily the better of the two from a skill to skill basis comparison. My point being that MoR should cost 5 energy; thats my point. Now stop misinterpreting everything I have said; not only do I find it funny but it is beginning to get annoying.

Xasew · May 19, 2006, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella

This goes to all the people with like posts (I just got the one closest)
I said a jump-this includes the following skills
OathShot
Echo
Zypher
etc...
I just used echo as an example; I swear some people are so one-sighted that they cannot possibly consider alternatives. I find it absolutely humorous really; as for my choice I would take oathshot but thats just my preference.

Never heard the term jump being used like that, but whatever.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella

Now back to my point. I never suggested using SQ on a mesmer (one you couldn't loop it; but some people didn't do the math {or read my posts} and apparantly didn't figure that out by themselves). I am comparing the two skills as only skills; SQ is easily the better of the two from a skill to skill basis comparison. My point being that MoR should cost 5 energy; thats my point. Now stop misinterpreting everything I have said; not only do I find it funny but it is beginning to get annoying.

You say skill to skill basis, but you're putting Oath Shot in the mix. If tou take SQ and MoR and look at the skills without any other skills, you can already see that MoR is better. If you take some other skills to make SQ better, you're limited to a very narrow amount of builds, because Oath Shot+SQ isn't extremely handy unless it's some weird trapper/interrupt build. And even after that MoR is more efficient.
But none of that really matters, because looking at skills like that is just plain dumb. Only a few ranger builds benefit from SQ, while it's easy to come up with tons of Mesmer builds with MoR in them. Rangers rarely need SQ, which is why it's nothing special, while MoR gives Mesmers a lot of new options.
If MoR cost 5 energy, it would give Mesmers the ability to casts spells twice as much just by saccing their elite slot, because 5 energy is next to nothing(aka it would become overpowered). With MoR costing 10 energy they have to bring at least some energy management.

Eaimirth Etaivella · May 19, 2006, 11:21 PM // 23:21

MoR is being used by what top guilds now? None? Is that right? Thought so...

Divine Boon is overpowered.
Contemplation of Purity is overpowered.
Spiteful Spirit is overpowered.
Evisricate is overpowered.
Barrage is overpowered.
...goes on

I personally think giving mesmers a skill that makes FC worth a damn is a good thing.

Avarre · May 20, 2006, 05:27 AM // 05:27

The reason this thread is so funny is 100 people have shown why it is good, and 1 person maintains that it is bad because people don't use MoR over 'Divine Boon'. Good argument man, I respect you.