Curse

Themis · May 14, 2006, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Put this way (MoR used with caution, in a strategic way -as you state-) i agree.

Eaimirth Etaivella · May 15, 2006, 03:28 AM // 03:28

Diversion has never been a good skill since the first nerf.
MoR is a stance; meet an offensive character of any kind that uses phsical damage and you can kiss your ass goodbye. Ranger spiker, warrior spiker, anything. Will diversion save you from this? No. Will MoR? No, it is a stance and thus prohibits you from using any other stance that *Might* have saved you; including any elite that might have saved you. Unless they fix it so it isn't so energy draining...still won't be on my skill bar.

fatboyslimerr · May 15, 2006, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Me/Mo or Me/N using domination inspiration and fast casting (other than resistances) what stance do you expect me to use that will 'save me' ???
If a warrior started bashing me there's a thing called kiting and for warriors and rangers there is such a thing as monks who will hopefully stop you from dying.

Energy is really not a problem using MoR. I use willcrusher so I have 49 energy and really with E-tap and drain enchant 12 second recharge I often find I'm not using enough energy. If I've got too much energy I can just save energy management skills to near the end of MoR then renew MoR then use energy management again. etc etc. If ur struggling with energy your not using MoR properly. After an intensive drain (shame + leak + burn) you wouldn't neccesarily need to do that again for awhile so you can just let energy regen on its own or locate another target use MoR then energy manage skills and proceed to deny more energy.

Balancing up, there is a chance of you over denying or removing energy that isn't actually there so don't be over active so you can let your energy regen by itself sometimes if not I still find it easy to maintain MoR for awhile using Etap and Drain Enchant to keep up energy

Xasew · May 15, 2006, 05:02 PM // 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Themis

Btw : why would you need to power leek 26 energy every 10 seconds ? Your target has infinite energy ?

There's a thing called changing the target. If you hit a spike team(for example), you can effectively stop a spike every 10 seconds, but the target can't participate in a spike for a while because he's at 0 energy. If you do this to a different target every 10 seconds, it really screws up energy. Interrupting Ether Prodigy on those nasty Blind Bots really helps too, trust me I know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella

Diversion has never been a good skill since the first nerf.

Bullshit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella

Unless they fix it so it isn't so energy draining...still won't be on my skill bar.

Drain Enchantment and Power Drain with MoR gives you all the energy management you're ever gonna need. And both can be used offencively.

fatboyslimerr · May 15, 2006, 09:10 PM // 21:10

I find energy tap more reliable that power drain. I know power drain is like the best energy skill in the game but it requires an interrupt and I'm really pushing it using one interrupt on a monk who may only cast a 3/4 or 1 second spell every so often. It also isn't good for e-denial as it just gains you energy it doesn't steal etc.

In other words if u interrupt a monk with power leak they'll likely guess they're up against an interrupter and stick to quick casting time spells for awhile. This means you might struggle to find a spell to interrupt (unless the monk is pretty crap and spams orison of healing). And again you might run into the problem of having too much energy if you keep interrupting using power drain (like 12 second recharge).

Furthermore unless you have a great support team, I find it hard to be able to concentrate on interrupting for long periods of time due to enemies attacking and my inability to kite (run away) while trying to interrupt. This is why I only use one interrupt which can be used just before you run away from the nasty shock warrior who is just waiting to use eviscerate on you.

Diversion is simply brilliant. Your a fool to think otherwise !!!
I dunno how naughty you wanna be and this should really get nerfed by using MoR and diversion basically means diversion every 5 seconds, but you'll need to maintain energy management. But imagine if you can cast diversion everytime it ends e.g. cast -- lasts for 6 seconds -- cast again etc.
Constant diversion !!! Anyone tried this ?

Dragannia · May 16, 2006, 07:56 AM // 07:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatboyslimerr

Diversion is simply brilliant. Your a fool to think otherwise !!!
I dunno how naughty you wanna be and this should really get nerfed by using MoR and diversion basically means diversion every 5 seconds, but you'll need to maintain energy management. But imagine if you can cast diversion everytime it ends e.g. cast -- lasts for 6 seconds -- cast again etc.
Constant diversion !!! Anyone tried this ?

Duh

Constant Diversion only works with energy management; the likes of Shame, E-Tap, Drain Enchantment, etc. It works effectively if you know what you're doing.

Eaimirth Etaivella · May 16, 2006, 11:29 AM // 11:29

Constant diversion is not a good build...
At best you
-Disable yourself
-Disable one of them (KINDA)

They will still get skills off; you however...will not.

Ohh and I would expect you to be using hex breaker; or possibly distortion. There is a thing called "run buffs" or "sprint" that makes running a bad idea (yea woo 100% critical chance on evisricate anyone? Yea we will kite the hell of that warrior woo~). Sure you can "try" running but that won't do you any good if the warrior knows what he is doing. With rangers well...it won't do you any good if they interrupt every spell you cast-even if you have a monk on your team you are still a dead character.

fatboyslimerr · May 16, 2006, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Tis true this is why the majority of my builds use blackout so warriors lose adrenaline then I can use e-deny on rangers but your right.

Was just a crazy idea, constant diversion, was only being half serious really. Just sounded fun. Distortion isn't really an option for a domination mesmer (16 domination 9 inspiration 11 FC) so I don't really use it much. Fine its brilliant on an illusion mesmer but I very rarely play that.

One idea though, that I saw Last Prides mesmer doing is using dark escape (new assassin skill) which makes you move 25% faster and you take half damage. Ends if you sucessfully hit with an attack. You ever seen mesmers relying on attacks for damage ??? Dunno if that counts spells though. But it seemed to work wonderfully. Great for retreating when you start getting raped.

Edit: Was thinking about warriors and was just playing HA. Thought of these skills.

MoR {E}
Shame
Power Leak
E-Tap
E-Burn
Spirit of Failure
Drain Enchantment
Res Signet.

Man this build is sooooo good. I never had energy problems, found I had way too much. Increased recharge times basically makes me twice as efficient (with the lack of e-surge or weariness) this still works amazingly well. I find I can actually just do my job a lot quicker. Spirit of Failure with 5 second recharge. Quick cast on multiple warriors then get down to some denial. Great stuff
I don't think I'll ever go back to using E-Surge.

Eaimirth Etaivella · May 16, 2006, 11:11 PM // 23:11

I'm not saying that it is a terrible elite...just saying with stuff like "serpent's quickness" out there...it should be 5 energy.

Xasew · May 17, 2006, 01:56 PM // 13:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella

I'm not saying that it is a terrible elite...just saying with stuff like "serpent's quickness" out there...it should be 5 energy.

Great idea, lets get Ranger 2ndary and put points in Wilderness Survival on a caster... With 11 FC you get only 4 seconds of downtime with MoR.
With 10 in Wilderness Survival you get 20 seconds of downtime with SQ. And what if you get spiked and your health drops below 50%?
SQ needs a crappy attribute and 2ndary, it's weaker, can end if your health drops too much and has 5 times more downtime.

Eaimirth Etaivella · May 18, 2006, 03:17 AM // 03:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xasew

Great idea, lets get Ranger 2ndary and put points in Wilderness Survival on a caster... With 11 FC you get only 4 seconds of downtime with MoR.
With 10 in Wilderness Survival you get 20 seconds of downtime with SQ. And what if you get spiked and your health drops below 50%?
SQ needs a crappy attribute and 2ndary, it's weaker, can end if your health drops too much and has 5 times more downtime.

/flame

I'm not saying mesmers should run SQ but I am saying to compare the two skills.
One costs less energy, works with skills (aka everything), can be kept up continously with a jump (SQ flipped onto itself so it gets the recharge bonus) and rangers get it. However a much "weaker" recharge skill belongs to mesmers, is elite, costs more energy, and only works for spells.

Something is dreadfully wrong here.

Rangers have beaten mesmers at their own game-and until mesmers have a skill of equal standing in terms of power with this skill its not even worth comparing.

Xasew · May 18, 2006, 08:05 AM // 08:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella

/flame

I'm not saying mesmers should run SQ but I am saying to compare the two skills.
One costs less energy, works with skills (aka everything), can be kept up continously with a jump (SQ flipped onto itself so it gets the recharge bonus) and rangers get it. However a much "weaker" recharge skill belongs to mesmers, is elite, costs more energy, and only works for spells.

Something is dreadfully wrong here.

Rangers have beaten mesmers at their own game-and until mesmers have a skill of equal standing in terms of power with this skill its not even worth comparing.

You can't compare skills without looking at attributes and professions. Ether Prodigy would still be the best energy management in the game if it was in the Fire line, but it would suck ass because only Fire eles could use it well. Only some trapper builds use SQ, but MoR is what every Mesmer wants. Does Shadow Refuge suck because Healing Breeze is already in the game? No.

And I really don't agree about SQ being superior in any way. MoR gives 50% reduction, SQ only 33%. SQ can end prematurely, MoR can't. If MoR worked with skills the only thing it would help with is in some EDenial build where it would give better recharge to Signet of Weariness.

Eaimirth Etaivella · May 18, 2006, 12:10 PM // 12:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xasew

You can't compare skills without looking at attributes and professions. Ether Prodigy would still be the best energy management in the game if it was in the Fire line, but it would suck ass because only Fire eles could use it well. Only some trapper builds use SQ, but MoR is what every Mesmer wants. Does Shadow Refuge suck because Healing Breeze is already in the game? No.

And I really don't agree about SQ being superior in any way. MoR gives 50% reduction, SQ only 33%. SQ can end prematurely, MoR can't. If MoR worked with skills the only thing it would help with is in some EDenial build where it would give better recharge to Signet of Weariness.

Someone didn't read my post.

SQ can loop into itself and be kept up continously. MoR is a stance, it does cost 10 energy, it is an elite, thus many mesmers (such as myself) DO NOT want it. Now if it costed 5 energy; yea I would use it-but not 24/7. As it is now it is nothing more than a gimmic build, a build to be killed by warriors, interrupt rangers, all with the dead little mesmers saying "HA! They won't be using those skills for a whole minute!" like that matters as you won't be using any of your skills for the rest of the game. SQ is a good skill, many people use it with no points in it-it is that good. And yes MoR is in the FC line, an attribute line where the diminishing returns make it the worst primary in the game. So personally I don't see your arguement. MoR should be 5 energy, and you completely left out blackout in your post above. SQ+BO ttyl; have your little "Diversion+MoR spam" stay in the random arenas; and lets see how many times you die before the warrior runs out of skills.

Dragannia · May 18, 2006, 12:59 PM // 12:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella

Someone didn't read my post.

SQ can loop into itself and be kept up continously. MoR is a stance, it does cost 10 energy, it is an elite, thus many mesmers (such as myself) DO NOT want it. Now if it costed 5 energy; yea I would use it-but not 24/7. As it is now it is nothing more than a gimmic build, a build to be killed by warriors, interrupt rangers, all with the dead little mesmers saying "HA! They won't be using those skills for a whole minute!" like that matters as you won't be using any of your skills for the rest of the game. SQ is a good skill, many people use it with no points in it-it is that good. And yes MoR is in the FC line, an attribute line where the diminishing returns make it the worst primary in the game. So personally I don't see your arguement. MoR should be 5 energy, and you completely left out blackout in your post above. SQ+BO ttyl; have your little "Diversion+MoR spam" stay in the random arenas; and lets see how many times you die before the warrior runs out of skills.

When you see Diversion on you, and if you're a Monk, what do you do? Do you wait for the 6 seconds, or do you think, "Hey, it's only a minute, I'll use Reversal!"

You have a Monk protecting you; Mesmers shouldn't need to rely on themselves for healing. Interrupts will be annoying, yes, but then they're wasting a person trying to stop you, as well. And you have Fast Casting, and MoR boosting the recharge of your spells, which means about half your skills will get through if they have a DEDICATED interrupter on you. So, your team has lost half of one person's effectiveness, while they're wasting a whole person trying to stop you? Sounds fair.

If you have a MoR build looking like this:

MoR
Diversion
Shame
Guilt
Backfire
Energy Tap
Drain Enchantment
Res Sig

Your energy renewal skills recharge every 10-12 seconds, giving you a bonus of about 20 energy. And that's not counting the energy you get from Shame and Guilt. You'll have enough energy to spare.

Constant Backfire on someone. Constant Diversion on another, with Guilt and Shame thrown in. This is what a Mesmer should be able to do; shutdown multiple targets. And it's very easy with this build.

fatboyslimerr · May 18, 2006, 02:32 PM // 14:32

Ha ha, people that suggest SQ aren't really thinking clearly. A decent mesmer would not even think about splitting skills into some silly secondary. It means you have less points to spend on ur primary magic (usually domination for me) support (inspiration) and all my builds use at least 11 FC. This means if I came up against a mesmer using SQ with their attributes too widely spread (say only 6-8 in FC) then I could ruin their day with power leak on 10 second recharge.

The only non spell mesmers use (other than signets) is blackout so by running a build without blackout, MoR basically recharges all ur skill slots (spells) 50% faster. Diversion spammin' was just a bit of fun, if you intend to take it seriously and think a whole build could be made from it, I think you should step outside and rub nettles into your face until you return to some kinda sense. Firstly u'd have no energy secondly it would be pretty boring and thirdly it would be pretty boring... and rubbish lol.

I usually have about 13 FC with MoR build which means it lasts 19 seconds, with 20 second recharge ???. That means its upto pretty much constantly. If u've tried this build and not liked it, personally your not good enough for it lol.. only kiddin', but seriously this skill basically means I can operate twice as fast. Imagine an E-Surger on speed.... thats me. Energy isn't actually a problem I've found since the basis of the denial build, shame, e-tap, p. leak and burn only cost about 10-12 in total if u take into account net energy gain from shame (about 2-5) e-tap (7) -- this basically pays for p. leak so your only using energy for burn which costs 10. Plus u've got drain enchantment as well which pays for MoR maintainence. If that isn't enough I usually take Spirit of Failure too with a 5 second recharge so I can quickly (and I mean quickly) cast that on 2 enemy warriors and I am usually maxed on energy until it runs out or it gets removed.

To me this build increases my effectiveness by about 50% I would say. I can quite happily keep 2 monks denied of energy almost completely (thats in GvG only though, in HA its too easy to get ganked) and with fast casting at 13 its almost impossible for me to be interrupted (team mate mesmer has expel hex to remove migrane etc). If your still not happy then you can buzz me in game and I'll show you true e-denial.

holden · May 18, 2006, 03:01 PM // 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella

Someone didn't read my post.

SQ can loop into itself and be kept up continously. MoR is a stance, it does cost 10 energy, it is an elite, thus many mesmers (such as myself) DO NOT want it. Now if it costed 5 energy; yea I would use it-but not 24/7. As it is now it is nothing more than a gimmic build, a build to be killed by warriors, interrupt rangers, all with the dead little mesmers saying "HA! They won't be using those skills for a whole minute!" like that matters as you won't be using any of your skills for the rest of the game. SQ is a good skill, many people use it with no points in it-it is that good. And yes MoR is in the FC line, an attribute line where the diminishing returns make it the worst primary in the game. So personally I don't see your arguement. MoR should be 5 energy, and you completely left out blackout in your post above. SQ+BO ttyl; have your little "Diversion+MoR spam" stay in the random arenas; and lets see how many times you die before the warrior runs out of skills.

SQ ends if you're health drops below 50%? is that still true? if you're playing mesmer people get tired of your shit and send the warriors after you. it's a good chance you'll drop below 50 several times during the fight.

with higher fast casting MoR will only be down 5 seconds. I don't understand what you mean by SQ can loop into itself. at what attribute level? that 45 second cooldown sucks. and i can't see taking away form FC, dom or inspiration for one skill in wilderness survival.

but i can't see being a ranger secondary just for that skill.

imo blackout is a cheap shutdown. if you have a purpose with it in gvg I can see using it. otherwise i like to have fun when i play my mesmer. actually use the skills on my bar.

Themis · May 18, 2006, 03:22 PM // 15:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatboyslimerr

A decent mesmer would not even think about splitting skills into some silly secondary.

/agree

(although at HA you're almost allways obliged to do so...

)

fatboyslimerr · May 18, 2006, 04:35 PM // 16:35

I usually find sympathetic visage is pretty sweet to deal with warriors in HA. And distortion is pretty sweet too. Dunno how these could be helped by MoR though. MoR could be used with some elemental spell that gives + armor but maybe has long recharge ??

Themis · May 18, 2006, 04:48 PM // 16:48

I think you should take Distortion. Problem with it : energy loss. But, in your MoR/inspi build's case, this should be a minor problem. And if you manage to cast Spirit of Failure on the W(R) who attacks you, then your energy problem is solved !!!

EDIT : I also tried for a long time in HA Greater Conflagration (put by a R) with a Mantra of Flame -> best match. Moreover, Monks can use the Mantra.

fatboyslimerr · May 18, 2006, 05:30 PM // 17:30

This is strictly for HA (my MoR/p.leak build is still my favourite for GvG)
but if I was using MoR + Spirit of Failure + Distortion then the rest of e-denial skills, can anyone think what attributes might look like. Remember I need high fast casting (at least 11) to use MoR effectively.
14 domination
12 fast casting
9 inspire
5 illusion ?? -- that was a complete guess I dunno if its too many points.
Any idea ??