Curse

fatboyslimerr · Jun 09, 2006, 10:55 AM // 10:55

I'm thinking of trying a FC fire spike for GvG maybe, (although I use an echo fire nuker in PvE and it works a treat) but I'm interested to know how damaging fire magic actually is at 12 fire, and how much of its damage is negated by armor ?? Could it ever replace FC air spike ?

Evilsod · Jun 09, 2006, 10:57 AM // 10:57

Fire is more for area damage. Even with Fast Casting half the skills will take way too long, air has Armour Pentration so it actually has a chance against high AL targets too.

AndrewAtHome · Jun 09, 2006, 12:10 PM // 12:10

And air ele's can spike, blind, knock down, and generally piss off your opponents... I've all but given up on fire now - the AoE spells are often a waste, cost too much energy, and take too long to cast. My E/A still uses fire magic but that only works because of hours of practise using AoD with PBAoE spells.

LightningHell · Jun 09, 2006, 01:06 PM // 13:06

^ And that would be extremely dangerous, unreliable, etc.

I generally have fun watching some of my colleagues play.

Especially in a unrated GvG.

Ensign · Jun 09, 2006, 09:31 PM // 21:31

Fire doesn't have Blinding Flash or Gale, the #1 and #2 reasons to run Me/E spike. The third reason is spiking fast, and fire's recharges don't allow for that. You don't get a good followup spell.

Basically it's worse than spiking with the air skills in every way. If for whatever reason you needed to have a fire guy in a build, Fireball and Meteor have good effects to spike with. They don't belong in any sort of spike build though.

Peace,
-CxE

fatboyslimerr · Jun 09, 2006, 10:38 PM // 22:38

I'm wonderfully aware of the advantages of air and the seemingly mounting disadvantages of fire. But I'm only asking how damaging fire magic is. If you imagine a coordinated fireball, thats serious AoE damage, which is bad how ?? Meteor is great too (whats that... long recharge... well there are 4-5 of you... take it in turns to use it, on monkies).

So thanks for the opinions but I need the experience of someone who's tried fire at low levels (12 attri points) in GvG, to tell me how damaging it is. Thanks

Shadow-Hunter · Jun 09, 2006, 10:50 PM // 22:50

Well.. I havent tryed out Fire and air magic at 12 attrib.. But from what i know other than that: Lets say Lightning orb vs Fireball..
Orb = 15 E - 2 sec cast - 5 sec recharge 141 dmg to 60 AL @16 attrib
Fireball= 10 E - 2 sec cast - 7 sec recharge - 119 dmg to 60 AL @16 attrib

Ofc at 12 attrib the dmg is lower.. But its still air that wins.. The extra 5 energy is not very much with dual attunement..

and since air got other good dmg skills like light strike as follow up dmg, then Fire have nothing other than flare that can be casted fast..

Fire will allways Imo be the PvE element.. Its the best for PvE cus its area dmg.. But in PvP No good team would stand close together when they face a Team using Heavy Area dmg... So use Air for PvP, leave fire at home untill you do PvE

~Shadow
Edit: Edited dmg of Fireball

Ensign · Jun 09, 2006, 11:26 PM // 23:26

12 spec Fireball is 91, fully affected by armor. 12 spec Lightning Orb hits for 108 after the 25% AP. The AoE on Fireball is adjacent (156 inches).

Again though, the build is only playable because of Blinding Flash and Gale, so I don't know where you're going with this.

Peace,
-CxE

Falconer · Jun 09, 2006, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Your figures are BS Shadow-Hunter... you have @16attrb... then only claim 91 damage for the fireball?! Try 119... that's a difference of *28* points... so you're not even close. Fire can spike like air can... you get the fireball then follow it with immolate... (so the spike comes to 119, + 53 fire, and 42 more in the next 3seconds from burning degeneration). If you can toss the 3s precursor hex, incendiery bonds spikes harder... 84 plus 3s burn in an AOE... with 119 more from the fireball is not exactly weak (203 damage at the 3s mark almost exactly with 42 more in fast acting degen). But you'll only see those figures against squishies.

For most builds... in PvP... air by a longshot. Just simply better for the single target uses and utility aspect. Earth is decent as well. Water is great if you NEED the snares (EG: your warrior trains need a nice crippled target to wail upon).

Earth tends to be stronger in PvP for the instant knockdowns with good AOE. Run earthquake with Glyph of Energy for example... exhaustion problem what exhaustion problem? They're both on a 15s cycle... and running something like serpents can help that out more by knocking it down to 10s recycle on both. Also the wards play big, though most wards are perfectly servicable with a 8 or 9 spec.

Water's singular purpose is snares... it doesn't do enough damage on it's own to do much more than annoy the target. Great if you have a warrior train who wants a target who can't run away.

That much said... a lot of the fast casting me/elly builds... especially in tombs might try running a single fire elly as a ward buster. How many guys do you really need on the blinding patrol. (I tend to think after 3 or 4 things get a little silly). Fires ONLY attribute is it's ability to hit hard up front especially on squishies and to punish people who are hiding together under defensive fields, against higher AL targets it rapidly is cut in half... while air is only cut down to 70% or so. Especially since ward of stability is popular now taking out a large portion of earthquakes utility.

So yes I do think fires damage can be present even in PvP... but only in a few limited venues like tombs right now where the AOE can be made use of. Alliance battles it works reasonably well too... since you can almost always count on NPC's to be slightly grouped. (you can almost always hit 2 at once... sometimes 3 or 4). Fires brute damage is not insignificant (and very few people have +elemental armor instead of +physical), but it's not quite signicant enough to consider unless you have some specialized need for elemental AOE damage and don't already have your flashbot and such covered.

In PvE.. not much contest you either take earthers for wards plus some offense/knockdowns/armor ignoring or you take fire to simply punish grouped targets. (and the fire elly should be smart enough to pick targets on his own... know when to join the focus and when to aim for a group of targets because it'll kill things faster. One of fire's problems in PvE is that by the time you've cast your spells the focus fire has already practically killed the target... and a 119 point fireball on a target with 50 health is kinda a waste, when the warrior or ranger is just gonna whack it for 50 in a second anyhow).

A good example of the above is the incend bonds/fireball setup. It takes 5 seocnds for this combo to go off... when it does it'll knock monks life bars in half as well as hurt anything near them at the time... (great combo for spiking out monk NPCs!) Problem is 5s is a LONG time... when you got 6 guys focus firing... you may be better off just tossing the fireball up front for the 119.

chikorita23 · Jun 10, 2006, 01:23 AM // 01:23

>>>Water's singular purpose is snares... it doesn't do enough damage on it's own to do much more than annoy the target. Great if you have a warrior train who wants a target who can't run away.

1. I want to reply to the topic first... in order to know what Dmg with 12 attribute Fire magic do... simply go to PvP island.... there is this trainning ground with all the different "wood-men" lol with different armors. U can test the dmg on them, and also test the AoE range effect etc. Nobody ever test ur build there?!? I always went there

!

2. Water Magic... aren't as "weak" as most ppl think. I know 90% GW player neglect or only think Water can snare. I use Water for both Pve and pvp. Yeah I agree Water design to annoy your opponent and snare your opponent. But with max water point 16. Water still has the ability to do fine damage. Use Water Trident + all your snare... you can kill melee enemies fast by yourself. New Faction Icy Prism also interrupt and DISABLE any signets *and with Rust... u will have a very easy time to interrupt any signet with Icy Prism*

! I love Air magic spike too... but somehow I don't survive with air magics in Pvp. I keep myself safe with Water Magics snare and knock down effect more... and I don't always need a warrior to combine the snare effect. *Becoz Water easily kill assassin and warrior and it does good dmg on Mes,Necro, or any caster except Ele with Water Robe or Ranger* (The only problem is energy management... gotta watch out for that)

joncoish · Jun 10, 2006, 03:28 AM // 03:28

If you read the guild book that comes with guild wars, it states that a fire elementalist has the potential to do more damage then any other class, and I agree with this. But obviously, the benefit from fire magic is the area effect. And even if you ignore the skills that cause mobs to scatter, you have some nice spells like fireball, meteor swarm, inferno, etc. I play a fire elementalist in pve, and include fireball in my build as a semi-spammable skill. I always love it when I cast it on a group, and hit three of them for big damage. If you assume that the fireball will hit three mobs, then even if the damage is cut down to 50 hps (maybe that's a bit much, I don't know) that's still a total of 150 overall damage. Whereas in the post a few above, lightning orb will do about 108 on a single target. So when you look at it like that, fire magic does do more damage overall, but like a lot of people here would say, it's probably not good for spiking a single target. I like fire magic in pve because it's good for taking out a group of mobs quicker, whereas in pvp people probably don't group up as much and stuff.

Shadow-Hunter · Jun 10, 2006, 11:00 AM // 11:00

Thats what i mean, sure the Bond hex + Fire ball combo is good.. But as a spike its not very good imo.. Since: enemy can see that he is hexed, you cant cast more than one of it on the target, and after that most fire skills have fairly long cast time.. where imo the Air magic have like 4 skills that all can dmg like 6x-7x with 1 sec cast time.. and fairly low recharge time.. also, if you build a FC fire spike team, how many good teams would stay close together ?

So Imo Air > Fire.. Also fire dont have nice extra skills like all the others have

~Shadow

Sry for giveing a wrong number on the fireball before, kinda screwed up there

Ensign · Jun 10, 2006, 06:59 PM // 18:59

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