Curse

Mysterial · Jun 03, 2006, 12:46 AM // 00:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vermilion Okeanos

I agree star burst is under rated, and I agree it can be decent in dps. But honestly, and no offense... but everyone admit HA is a farming zone, not a real competetion zone, so using it as a base is a really bad idea.

So, GvG is the only 'real' competition zone? While it might be the best 'hardcore' competition, the reality is that lots of players play the other types and they don't and shouldn't balance skills solely on GvG, nor should skills be considered 'bad' because they don't work in that environment. If Elementalist damage was consistently on par or better than others in all environments except GvG, I wouldn't have a problem with the class. Unfortunately, Star Burst and Flame Burst are two of less than a skill bar's worth of useful skills that can actually put out DPS, but that's a seperate discussion.

Vermilion Okeanos · Jun 03, 2006, 01:08 AM // 01:08

Considering the HA teams are largely of PUG, random matching, FotM; you got plenty of room for gimmicks.

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now more about star burst.

While with elite energy management, you can deal the damage of star burst and from a range, and more often too. That just make star burst a laughable elite. It take about the preperation of running to the guy and get your self in closer danger, as to the 2-3 sec cast time. If you got an anti-caster sitting on you, neither is going to work. In all arguement of DPS, a fast cast mes with dual attune is far better off.

While the lamest part I have to say is, it is a freaking spell not a skill. That, I am sure no one have an argument about.

If in HoH, you stand in the middle cap zone, star burst -> flame burst indeed can be decent, as people come to you. But, double dragon -> flame burst at that moment would be even better.

If star burst is to give melee pressure, double dragon is to keep off melee pressure. Most people who know, would really rather not stand in the same area with a PBAoE ele.

Why aren't people spamming rodgort and fireball? I think we all know why.

Mysterial · Jun 03, 2006, 03:09 AM // 03:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vermilion Okeanos

While with elite energy management, you can deal the damage of star burst and from a range, and more often too.

No, you can't. The only ranged spells with any efficiency at all are Fireball, Rodgort's Invocation, and Incendiary Bonds (with the latter two being average at best because they cost too much for their effect). Besides that two of those are 'adjacent', not 'nearby', you can't cycle those spells fast enough to beat Flame Burst guy. Sure, if the enemy is stupid and sits in a Firestorm, you could do better, but then again, if they're doing that, I can take Bed of Coals and do even more.

Quote:

That just make star burst a laughable elite. It take about the preperation of running to the guy and get your self in closer danger, as to the 2-3 sec cast time.

That argument is terrible for the same reasons making it against Warriors is terrible. The 'danger' argument is valid in GvG and it's why you'll never see PBAoE there, but in other gametypes it's almost always a jumble of players anyway and in any position where you're impacting the battlefield you're in approximately the same level of danger as everybody else.

Quote:

If you got an anti-caster sitting on you, neither is going to work. In all arguement of DPS, a fast cast mes with dual attune is far better off.

No, he isn't, because the barrier is recharge times on the ranged slow spells, not casting speed.

Quote:

While the lamest part I have to say is, it is a freaking spell not a skill. That, I am sure no one have an argument about.

I actually like it as a spell because it helps me run Channeling, which is the primary reason I can afford to take it and still have energy to cast all the time. However, I don't think it matters that much either way.

Quote:

If in HoH, you stand in the middle cap zone, star burst -> flame burst indeed can be decent, as people come to you. But, double dragon -> flame burst at that moment would be even better.

Unless they're melee characters coming to attack *you*, Double Dragon is almost always an extra high cost and weaker Inferno. If they are, then it's still not very effective because those melee characters have lots of armor.

Quote:

If star burst is to give melee pressure, double dragon is to keep off melee pressure. Most people who know, would really rather not stand in the same area with a PBAoE ele.

If I'm a Warrior and I'm not Frenzying or using Healing Signet, I really don't care - you can't cause enough damage to a Warrior with armor-hitting spells to beat their Monk's healing.

Quote:

Why aren't people spamming rodgort and fireball? I think we all know why.

What universe are you in where there are fire guys not spamming Fireball? And usually Rodgort's too - not because it's so good, but because there's really nothing else.

Vermilion Okeanos · Jun 03, 2006, 03:51 AM // 03:51

So why are you doing DPS with ele? Just as said before, ele simply can't dps, even with star burst. There are plenty of other better option than this, this is simply not good enough. Especially with the introduced ritualist too, that made matter even worst for ele.

The ranged spell have less after cast delay, while fireball have less recharge than star burst in exchanging the size, and also does not require chasing someone. Most of all, not elite.

Leave the DPS to the warriors, and have the ele stick with the support line or spike.

In my universe, there are no ele dps.

oh btw, if I see any ele getting close by for PBAoE without a teleport, i will jump the guy. Especially in a mob situation, where monk have it tough in the chaos.

Mysterial · Jun 03, 2006, 06:01 AM // 06:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vermilion Okeanos

So why are you doing DPS with ele? Just as said before, ele simply can't dps, even with star burst.

I'd love for you to show me the numbers on that one. DPS from Star Burst + Flame Burst + Fireball, every eleven seconds, hitting two targets on average, is (119 + 119 + 127) * 2 / 11 ~= 66.4 DPS, you have four skill slots to fit in the ~3.2 energy per second to run that and a couple of seconds of downtime to cast them. You also have the useful spike of 246 damage in 1.5 seconds from Star Burst->Flame Burst. I wouldn't exactly suggest you throw out all your warriors for it, but to say it can't do DPS is ridiculous.

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The ranged spell have less after cast delay

Star Burst has standard spell aftercast, not the longer PBAoE one. That's a big reason it's elite.

Quote:

There are plenty of other better option than this, this is simply not good enough. Especially with the introduced ritualist too, that made matter even worst for ele.

The Ritualist's skills can't really do damage any better than most Elementalist skills can - Ritualists just spike faster because their spike skills cast in one second.

Vermilion Okeanos · Jun 03, 2006, 06:47 AM // 06:47

We have a few mix up, lets clean that first.

The disscussion of my view seem to have moved to PBAoE vs AoE. Hence the argument of 1.75 cast delay. The AoE have .75 across, while PBAoE only have a single .75, the rest is 1.75. Lost focus i guess.

The ritualist are not meant for dmg in alot of area, hence I meant it as spirit ritualist. Providing and spaming union and shelter is a big issue.

While the dmg number look nice, have you look at the energy? What are you going to have to keep you going? and to get you back up? Channeling + energy tap? It would work for HoH for sure, but where else? Not even all the HA map this would work that decent.

Why don't we end it here.
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Star burst-
Possible of decent build combining with channeling in HoH.
Every where else, don't try it.
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Anything you like to add to that conclusion? We will keep editing that conclusion to as precise as possible. This way, we won't lose focus so easily. Guildwiki style ftw