Curse

Arcanis the Omnipotent · May 15, 2006, 06:12 PM // 18:12

I was messing around with this skill last night, and I have to tell you.. its basically worthless right now. I was expecting something more like Conundrum or Migraine, where the slowdown of the target is actually worth it.

And the speed up of your character doesnt really shine either. The way the spell is worded right now is that your spells cast 25% faster and the target's spells cast 25% slower.

This applies to the spells individually. So a spell with a 1/4 cast time will cast 1/16th faster. Whoopitydoo? Now while this may be effective to a spell that has a 4 second cast, its not really that effective on faster spells.

Here's how the formula works.

First off, Stolen Speed applies. A 4 second cast is turned into a 3 second cast.

Then Fast Casting comes into play. Lets say we're at level 9.
33% off of 3 seconds. Rounded up that becomes 1 second basically. So a 4 second cast becomes a 2 second cast. To note, 33% of 4 seconds is 1.32 seconds. Making your gain with Stolen Speed only about .28 seconds.

The reason why this is true is because Stolen Speed applies first. So Stolen Speed actually reduces the level at which Fast Cast effects your spells by reducing their cast times.

This is why the spell needs to be reworked. Stolen Speed should decrease your opponents casting speed and increase yours. As it applies to the casting times, its actually working against FC.

Mercury Angel · May 15, 2006, 06:56 PM // 18:56

As a note;
It doesn't matter what the order is.
.75 * .67 = 50.25%, or, 2.01 seconds again.

On topic;
It's more of an issue with Fast Casting in general, isn't it?

No matter how much Fast Casting you pack, it hardly matters with a 1/4th second cast spell, while a 1 second spell nets meh results, and a 8 seconds spell is the only thing that really sees significant changes. (And then, it still takes a while to get off.)
And the more you invest, the smaller returns you get.

The primary advantages of Stolen Speed seem to be that it's a mostly guaranteed speed boost, that it makes 1 second cast spells more interruptible without the necessity of investing into Illusion for Migraine/Arcane Conundrum, and that it stacks (albeit, giving diminishing returns) with fast casting.
It's cheap, has a quick recast, and is fairly fast to cast, all things considered.

Regardless, going back to the initial example, looking at just the benefits to your own casting speed again, Stolen Speed is giving you the equivalent of 7 more ranks in Fast Casting. (From about 2/3rds casting time at 9 fast casting, to 1/2 at 9+stolen speed, which is the same as you'd get from 16 Fast Casting)

I don't really run it, though I have it unlocked, so this is just a bit of rambling, I suppose.

I'm not saying it's good, or bad, just ... rambling x_X

floplag · May 15, 2006, 07:06 PM // 19:06

i think you may be missing the point. as a mesmer were casting fast anyway, but this would be invaluable to slow down the other faster casters or spells that cast faster than others making them easier to interrupt

Themis · May 15, 2006, 07:46 PM // 19:46

It can also replace some valuable skill points in Fast Casting. Stolen speed is equivalent to a 7 level FC.

So, let's suppose you plan having 10 in FC. Instead of investing 48 skill points (assuming you have a minor rune) in FC, you can only put 6 points up to level 3 and use Stolen speed to make up for the levels missing.
You'll have the same FC, but you can put your 45 skill points elsewhere... Fact is that your Elite slot is occupied by SS, but some Me builds don't need any special Elite spell.

Hella Good · May 15, 2006, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Stolen Speed is perhaps one of the best new Mesmer elites. When you pack a few 3 cast spells (Spirit of Failure, Shacks), you will notice the 25% faster cast, it's like having 16 in FC with only like 7-8 points in it. SSpeed is also an incredibly cost efficient skill; the extra 25% slower cast on target for just 5 nrg and with 6 recharge means shorter than 1 cast spells are now open to interrupt without incurring the costs (both nrg and recharge) of Migraine and Conundrum. Not to mention, that SSpeed is a Fast Cast skill, meaning you can skip Illusion altogether. I've always though that Migraine interrupt is too much of a stretch on the attributes.

If anything, SSpeed is too good.

BaconSoda · May 16, 2006, 12:48 AM // 00:48

I agree with "Hella Good". Stolen Speed is a wonderful skill, in fact, it reduced my res-ing time on "flesh of my flesh" on my mesmer to 1 second (had it on 2 people, works like life siphon, had 13 fast casting). If anything, it is TOO good.

Evilsod · May 16, 2006, 06:26 PM // 18:26

It depends on what skills your using with it... if you expected something like Migraine, why the hell don't you just use Migraine?!
Like Hella said, with 2-3 cast time spells you'll actually see a difference, but if you using it along with interrupts to make your job easier.... your wasting your elite.

Mercury Angel · May 16, 2006, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaconSoda

I agree with "Hella Good". Stolen Speed is a wonderful skill, in fact, it reduced my res-ing time on "flesh of my flesh" on my mesmer to 1 second (had it on 2 people, works like life siphon, had 13 fast casting). If anything, it is TOO good.

To the best of my knowledge, this is untrue.
I tested using 16 fast casting, maintaining Stolen Speed on -3- targets, and casting Meteor Shower, a 5 second cast spell.

It cast in about 2 seconds. (Theoretically, it was actually 1.875, but actually discerning .115 seconds is... not going to happen.)

Perhaps you had a 20% chance to cast 50% faster mod? I cast Meteor Shower in 1 second ONCE, but then I realized I had a Wand with 20% chance mod for casting Fire Magic, and the moment I unequipped it, I never saw a 1 second cast again.

Had it stacked, I would have cast in .75^3 * .5 seconds with consistency, or in just 21% of the cast time, about 1 second.
Even if one Stolen Speed was wearing off too quickly (21 second duration, 6 recharge, wholly possible), 1.4 seconds would have been the time.

Arcanis the Omnipotent · May 17, 2006, 01:51 AM // 01:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

It depends on what skills your using with it... if you expected something like Migraine, why the hell don't you just use Migraine?!
Like Hella said, with 2-3 cast time spells you'll actually see a difference, but if you using it along with interrupts to make your job easier.... your wasting your elite.

I expected a spell that was like Migraine, except with a speed return that was constant.

Its not a constant, its all done by percent of individual spells, and that's where I see the problem. And at what point did I say anything about using it for interupts. If you look up there at my original post, I'm talking about using it for longer spells.

The math doesnt add up to make it worth being an elite. You have to run it on multiple enemies at once for it to really effect positively. And the truth is that if you use it multiple times, all your doing is replacing your FC with Stolen Speed, and FC is pretty much rendered useless. Other than for the duration of the spell, you dont even need to be running FC at all.

That's why the spell should be reworked. It shouldnt delete FC from the equation, it should be added into it.

Eaimirth Etaivella · May 17, 2006, 03:07 AM // 03:07

Ahh good point Arcanis ^_^~:; guess no one read your starting post.

Hella Good · May 17, 2006, 05:20 AM // 05:20

This is a good point, but it doesn't make the skill any less potent.

Eaimirth Etaivella · May 18, 2006, 12:29 PM // 12:29

Less than it says it does;
SSpeed is a good skill
Not as good as many thought it was

Hella Good · May 18, 2006, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanis the Omnipotent

It shouldnt delete FC from the equation, it should be added into it.

Fine then, I will agree to that.

Evilsod · May 20, 2006, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanis the Omnipotent

Its not a constant, its all done by percent of individual spells, and that's where I see the problem. And at what point did I say anything about using it for interupts. If you look up there at my original post, I'm talking about using it for longer spells.

Perhaps you should read the sentence all the way through in that case.

It sounds like you'd prefer it to be done in time rather than %... as in yours spells cast 0.5seconds faster theres cast 0.5s slower.

azuresun · Jun 02, 2006, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Well they reworked it. Here's the update notes from 6/01 for Stolen Speed.

Reduced casting time to 1 second; reduced recharge time to 3 seconds; corrected the wording on this skill.

The new wording is:

For 5...17 seconds, target foe's spells take 25% longer to cast and your spells targeting that foe take 25% less time to cast.

Opinions? Comments?

Themis · Jun 02, 2006, 06:12 PM // 18:12

imo :

Casting time is now playable. Low cost, needs to be covered. Not worth spamming it around it seems. If used with interrupts, 25% slower is worth, but the counter-part (25% faster my side) is useless for interrupting.

Mainly for casters' duelling. I would say mainly vs some Eles, Necros or channeling Rits.

As I stated before, it allows some redistribution of FC skill points, it is possible to have a 12-12-12 in illusion+domination+inspiration with just one major rune.

But I can't figure a team build using this Elite... although not really thrash, simply can't find a combination with others spells (except interrupts). Perhaps someone else will

Still... at the moment i think it's not worth an Elite slot.

swordfisher · Jun 02, 2006, 10:52 PM // 22:52

At fairly high FC, you begin to be able to use Diversion as a targetted spell, with it casting in about 1 1/4 of a second (1.29 seconds at 12 FC, 1.18 at 14) . As an enemy's 1s spell also casts at 1 1/4 second under Stolen Speed, just a tiny bit of anticipation lets you drop a Diversion with frightening precision. The same goes for Guilt and Shame, which were already pretty speedy- SS causes them to cast in under a second.

twicky_kid · Jun 02, 2006, 11:40 PM // 23:40

Its now a dead skill after the update. Its a hex and only works on the hexed target which will be removed nearly instantly while you spend more energy to keep it on the target. You cannot spread it to make it cumulative anymore. *Sigh* another dead mes elite.

Hella Good · Jun 02, 2006, 11:59 PM // 23:59

Yea, u know I was reading this and I was like... hmm... why did they "fix it" like that...

It's now spammable as it gets and so any anti-hex stuff becomes useless against it. You can use it as a cover (cheap, fast cast, extremely low recharge), or as a base to quickly unload a whole bunch of hexes on your target (like in a Barbs hex chain). But they did, it seems, redefine the skill. It's just quite different from what it was.

I wouldn't call it useless and definitely not call it a "another dead mes elite." Which are the other "dead elites" btw?

twicky_kid · Jun 03, 2006, 12:49 AM // 00:49

There are much better choices than stolen speed for elites. I don't think this really adds anything to a mes that he couldn't do before. Since its linked to FC you can't use it as a 2nd. You can use it to unload hexes quickly that is true. Then you run into energy problems because it takes your elite so no OoB. There are just better options.

Power block is pretty useless while diversion and other non-elite skills work so much better. Nice when it hits but "when" is the question. Recharge is too long to risk missing.

Insecurity is pretty bad. KD after you interrupt. What's the point you already interrupted their spell or skill?

Mes has less useless elites compared to the other classes but there are more just don't want to think that hard atm.