Curse

Siren · May 11, 2006, 12:41 AM // 00:41

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Originally Posted by Katari

That assumes there's something special about sin spikes. Like maybe something that makes them faster, harder to block, etc than a warrior spike.

There are a lot of things special about sin spikes, including things to make them faster (as it relates to movement speed, Siphon Speed is absolutely stunning), harder to block, etc. Best I've seen in Warrior regarding anti-evasion are other stances (there goes the IAS) or stuff from certain secondaries. Assassins have the advantage here when it comes to self-buffs.

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I'm not aware of anything that makes them more unstopable. If a sin wants to kill someone in PvP, I see no reason they'd need IAS less than a warrior would.

Check out some Deadly and Shadow Arts. Assassins have got better than IAS. Much better. Damage enhancement, bonus status effects, anti-evasion, snare/hex combinations...the list goes on and on.

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If all warriors needed IAS for was building adrenaline and boosting DPS, you'd see more of stuff like Battle Rage, or Bezerker's Stance.

No, we wouldn't. Because Berserker's Stance sucks (both as an Adre gain and IAS), and Battle Rage, while I can make it work beautifully, is a bizarre skill that drains Adre every 16 seconds, provided you don't use a non-attack skill before that, which makes it substandard in most builds.

And I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say here, as well. "If all Warriors needed IAS for was building Adre and boosting DPS"? I don't think that makes any sense, because what else are Warriors going to be using IAS for? Building Adre and boosting their DPS. Oh, of course: to shave off a fraction of a second from their Evis/Exe combo.

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The 1s attack time from Evice/Exe is due to IAS.

Yeah, and by bringing in IAS, Assassins are now allowed to use their own self-buffs, and their damage infliction is a hell of a lot scarier than 300 damage in 2 seconds, because, like I've shown in a previous post, the math from the spike works out in favor of the Assassin. They're hitting 250 damage in 1 second, versus the Warrior's 300 damage in 2 seconds.

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You apparently don't have IAS on your sin, so that's really 3.66s.

Because Assassins don't need IAS. Check out Deadly and Shadow Arts and see what I mean. Some of the stuff in there is fecking nasty.

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One second isn't enough of a cast time for a player to communicate to the monk that they have impale on them. However it could give a monk warrning enough to get in a guardian or RoF before someone 'spikes' him.

How many Monks are on the team? What are they doing? What's the other team doing? Which characters are they pressuring? You overestimate the Monk's ability to get a Guardian or RoF off in time, especially when the Assassin is simply capitalizing on battlefield chaos.

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Locusts Furry is an elite that simply boosts DPS.

So?

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A warrior won't be brining Frenzy purely for DPS, but a sin would be brining Locust's Fury purely for DPS.

Again, so?

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Oh, and Locust's Furry is an elite.

Okay, and?

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So it would be interesting to look at numbers compairing DPS, but it would be downright silly to claim that assasins have better at DPS if all that made them so was Locust's Fury.

There's the so! Regardless, I'm having trouble finding an actual point here in your conclusion. I mean, when we look at base DPS, without any IAS or Assassin skills, with the traditional attribute point spreads...the DPS between Wars and Sins is surprisingly similar. When we add IAS/Assassin skills into it, however, Assassins edge ahead. How is that a silly conclusion to make?

Because Locust's Fury is an Elite? Because the Warrior isn't bringing Frenzy for the sole purpose of boosting DPS, even though it's a major reason to bring Frenzy, especially after that War's Adrenaline gets wiped out if someone hits Sympathetic/Ancestor's Visage? Or Locust's Fury being an Elite that boosts DPS?

Sorry, but if there's anything silly here, it's your reasons. lol.

If you open up the Warrior skill lines for self-buffs, the Assassins get full access to their respective skill lines (because it's only fair), which gives them access to a few self-buffs that are much, much, much more powerful than 95% of the Warrior skill lines.

And after doing that, it's not silly at all to conclude that by using something like Locust's Fury (though L.F. was an example off the top of my head), Assassins can achieve a higher DPS than Frenzy Wars.

Do you know what is silly, though? Calling such a conclusion silly for your reasons above.

Katari · May 11, 2006, 01:37 AM // 01:37

The fact that Locust Furry might give sins better DPS than a warrior (Which numbers are you going with? They may have more raw DPS without Locust's Furry) is unimpressive in almost the same way Primal Rage boosting a warrior's DPS is unimpressive.

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Yeah, and by bringing in IAS, Assassins are now allowed to use their own self-buffs, and their damage infliction is a hell of a lot scarier than 300 damage in 2 seconds, because, like I've shown in a previous post, the math from the spike works out in favor of the Assassin. They're hitting 250 damage in 1 second, versus the Warrior's 300 damage in 2 seconds.

It isn't 250 in one second. It's Black Lotus Strike->Impale->Twisting, right?
1.33s->1s->0.75s(aftercast)->1.33s = 4.41s?

Saider maul · May 11, 2006, 02:08 AM // 02:08

I say the warrior has better over time due to him being able to endure dmg better monger and more of it. and still deal during the battle rather then run in and out.

Siren · May 11, 2006, 02:17 AM // 02:17

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Originally Posted by Katari

The fact that Locust Furry might give sins better DPS than a warrior (Which numbers are you going with? They may have more raw DPS without Locust's Furry) is unimpressive in almost the same way Primal Rage boosting a warrior's DPS is unimpressive.

I'm going by the numbers for Locust's Fury in-game at this very moment.

At 13 CS, Locust's Fury lasts longer than its recharge.

At any level of CS, it grants an additional 20% chance to doublestrike.

With each level of Dagger Mastery, there's something like an additional 2% to doublestrike. At 12-13 Dagger Mastery, that gets to be close to 30% doublestrikes.

Now think about that for a moment. 20%+30%. Half of your auto-attacks may very well be doublestrikes when using Locust's Fury. That's nothing to sneeze at, especially if you get Critical hits on top of doublestriking at least every three attacks.

Oh, and Primal Rage sucks because it's disabling the Warrior's attack skills, has a crap duration, and grants 20% armor penetration, which is only effective against hard targets, and the Warrior rarely (if at all) should ever be targeting characters with high AL, especially when there are squishies around. Not to mention there are much, much better Elites out there. The improved Critical rate and duration/recharge are the only attractive things about the skill.

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It isn't 250 in one second. It's Black Lotus Strike->Impale->Twisting, right? 1.33s->1s->0.75s(aftercast)->1.33s = 4.41s?

Impale-->Black Lotus-->Twisting, actually. Once you're done with the cast, you can go nuts. No pauses after Impale is cast.

Now, since we're counting the time required to prep for the spike (your "It isn't 250 in one second" bit)...the Assassin needs about 4 seconds, based on your calculations. I wonder what the Warrior needs to prep for his spike?

At 8 required Adrenaline for Evis alone, you're looking at swinging (and connecting) 8 times. Under IAS, that's a roughly even 8 seconds, because Frenzy is improving the attack speed by 33%, which drops the attack rate down to 1 second per swing, again if my math doesn't completely suck here.

Without IAS, however, you're looking at 8 seconds + 8 times 0.33 seconds in order to fully charge Evis. That comes out to be almost 11 seconds to charge up 8 strikes of Adre to do around 170 damage in 1 second. The prep time for Evis alone is either 8 seconds (with IAS) or 11 seconds (without IAS).

Compare that to Assassin.

Assassin takes 3 to 4 seconds to prep for a spike that easily can do 250 damage in 1 second.

Let's make those numbers completely clear so there's no room for confusion:

Warrior: 8-11 seconds. 170 damage in 1 second.

Assassin: 3-4 seconds. 250 damage in 1 second.

Superior spiker in this case? Looks like the Assassin by a longshot.

Sure, you could point to the Warrior being able to bring in Exe immediately after Evis, but then I could point out that the Assassin could have brought Mark of Instability for a Dual Attack KD (Twisting Fangs just became a 250 spike plus KD then), and followed Twisting Fangs with Falling Spider, to inflict bonus damage and Poison, which, when added to Twisting, brings things to 8 health degen on a target that's just been spiked for half of their max health (and that's if they were a fresh character).

Or I could mention how instead of Locust's Fury, the Assassin brought Moebius Strike and Critical Strike, so after he's spiked for 250 from Twisting Fangs, he goes into Moebius Strike-->Critical Strike, both causing damage that's been amplified due to the Deep Wound, and if the target was under 50% health after Twisting Fangs (which they very likely would be), the entire attack chain just got a recharge from Moebius' bonus effect, which means setting up the chain again isn't going to be hard at all, especially when Impale is going to be recharging in the next 5-10 seconds.

Still so convinced that a Warrior still has the upper hand when compared to a properly designed and played Assassin?

twicky_kid · May 11, 2006, 02:19 AM // 02:19

A war's eviscerate + executioners is 2 seconds total but it is 100 dmg then 200 dmg. A zin's combos are much slower (no IAS) and degen makes the target very noticable. Double strike is not a form of IAS its more DPS.

Deep wound isn't applied until a the next hit after eviscerate. That is the reason it works so well. Monks do not have enough time to react.

Zins are really limited to aura of displacement for their elites. So far for PvP I see no other skill even comparing. The attack elites have been completely scewed. The buff elites are not any good being enchantments with long recharges. The debuffing elites are hex with long recharges which again suffers from being removed.

Your elite should be to make you do your job or role better. Warriors are suppose to kill quickly after adren is built. Deep Wound + high dmg skill allows the warrior to do his job. Assassins are suppose to attack then get out. Aura is really the only elite that fits that description.

I think Assassins will learn to use IAS in the end. Frenzy is still the only real choice. Their armor sux so bad so what does double dmg really matter.

Dark fury really needs to be harnessed by teams. Its range is now radar size. Its been change but the description still says nearby. 4 hits to charge evisc + exec is very deadly. 5 hits for backbreaker.

moriz · May 11, 2006, 02:28 AM // 02:28

comparing the damage output of warriors and assassins is a waste of time. here's a general guideline on the difference between assassin and warrior:

warrior: general attack pressure
assassin: gank machine, selective killer

the warrior can't dream to match the assassin's mobility. while the assassin CAN technically keep pace with a warrior damage-wise, that will pretty much kill their mobility, making them very much useless.

so in conclusion, the assassin and the warrior are two very different character classes. comparing them is similar to, and about as useful as, comparing a ranger to a monk.

Schorny · May 11, 2006, 02:33 AM // 02:33

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Originally Posted by Siren

Without IAS, however, you're looking at 8 seconds + 8 times 0.33 seconds in order to fully charge Evis. That comes out to be almost 11 seconds to charge up 8 strikes of Adre to do around 170 damage in 1 second. The prep time for Evis alone is either 8 seconds (with IAS) or 11 seconds (without IAS).

This is completly wrong.

A warrior charging his skills is a serious threat. And you have to consider the charging time of adrenalin skills the same way as you consider the recharge of assasin skills.

It takes time to recharge them - and for a warrior it doesn't matter that he has to deal damage while doing so - because even if you don't use adrenalin skills, you still want to deal damage during the downtime of your skills...

and as you said: it takes about 11 seconds to charge them.. how long does it take to recharge the assasin skills?

all i want to say is: get your math right.

Katari · May 11, 2006, 02:35 AM // 02:35

And then you have a cooldown on your attack skills. The adrenal cost is only slightly more annoying than a cooldown in that it's less reliable. But it isn't 8-11s of prep-time on one target, it's 8-11s of prep-time on an off-target, and that prep-time is doing something, so it's not useless.

A single missed attack will shutdown an assasins entire assasin 'spike.' Exe or Evi getting blocked will suck, but it won't cause the rest of the attack chain to miss.

Daggers do not have an attack speed of 1s. They have the same attack speed (1.33s) as swords and axes when using attack skills.

I see the strength of a PvP sin in their mobility, chiefly in the form of Aura Of Displacement.

Siren · May 11, 2006, 03:23 AM // 03:23

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Originally Posted by Schorny

This is completly wrong.

It's completely right, actually. Watch me show how.

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A warrior charging his skills is a serious threat.

An Assassin is, too, especially when they're Critting and Doublestriking 30% of the time as they recharge their skills.

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And you have to consider the charging time of adrenalin skills the same way as you consider the recharge of assasin skills.

Yeah, and you'll find that most of the attack skill recharges are comparable to Adre charge time. Plus, if the Sin is running with Moebius Strike, the longer attack skill recharges just became irrelevant. Show me a Warrior attack skill that can recharge all of the War's Adre skills.

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It takes time to recharge them - and for a warrior it doesn't matter that he has to deal damage while doing so - because even if you don't use adrenalin skills, you still want to deal damage during the downtime of your skills...

Okay, and the Assassin wouldn't be auto-attacking why? And how could the Assassin not be doing damage while auto-attacking? Especially when they're getting Crits almost 30% of the time (2% times 13), and Doublestriking almost 30% of the time on top of that?

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and as you said: it takes about 11 seconds to charge them.. how long does it take to recharge the assasin skills?

Apart from Black Lotus Strike and Temple Strike, all of the Assassin attack skills recharges are between 4 and 15 seconds. On average, the recharges are 8 seconds. And again, check out Moebius Strike. Recharges become irrelevant.

And let's not also forget that one could go A/R and bring Serpent's Quickness for even faster recharges.

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all i want to say is: get your math right.

But that's the beauty of it. My math is completely correct here.

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Originally Posted by Katari

And then you have a cooldown on your attack skills.

A cooldown that, for the most part, is still faster than re-charging Evis/Exe. Only a handful of attack skills have recharges longer than 10 seconds.

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The adrenal cost is only slightly more annoying than a cooldown in that it's less reliable. But it isn't 8-11s of prep-time on one target, it's 8-11s of prep-time on an off-target, and that prep-time is doing something, so it's not useless.

Like I've said before, the Assassin shouldn't just be sitting around doing nothing while his or her attack skills recharge. Especially when the Assassin can net Criticals and Doublestrikes while auto-attacking.

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A single missed attack will shutdown an assasins entire assasin 'spike.' Exe or Evi getting blocked will suck, but it won't cause the rest of the attack chain to miss.

Okay, Guardian disrupts the chain. It's a possibility. But what about Evis? If Guardian blocks Evis...why do you think Exe will have it any easier? And if Evis gets blocked (or Diversioned, which is worse for a Warrior, because they have no way to recharge Evis at all), that War is going to rely on auto-attacks and Exe...which suffer from the same problems Evis ran into if the Warrior is still attacking the same target.

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Daggers do not have an attack speed of 1s. They have the same attack speed (1.33s) as swords and axes when using attack skills.

I was never arguing otherwise, though. And here's a fun thing to consider. If the Assassin Doublestrikes, they're getting two auto-attacks where the Warrior would only net one auto-attack. The War's running Frenzy, improving his attack speed to 1 second, right? The Assassin is Doublestriking every 1.33 seconds (best case scenario, obviously, but still relevant).

The Warrior's regular auto-attack is swinging every second, due to IAS, correct? Each second, they're getting one auto-attack.

The Assassin, on the other hand, has the capability to Doublestrike with every auto-attack, every 1.33 seconds. So each 1.33 seconds, they're getting two auto-attacks.

After 4 seconds, the Warrior's (with IAS) had 4 auto-attacks, while the Assassin (no IAS) has had 3+Doublestrikes, which can very easily become 5 auto-attacks.

Katari · May 11, 2006, 03:40 AM // 03:40

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Originally Posted by Siren

Okay, Guardian disrupts the chain. It's a possibility. But what about Evis? If Guardian blocks Evis...why do you think Exe will have it any easier? And if Evis gets blocked (or Diversioned, which is worse for a Warrior, because they have no way to recharge Evis at all), that War is going to rely on auto-attacks and Exe...which suffer from the same problems Evis ran into if the Warrior is still attacking the same target.

Right, Just because evicerate is blocked dosen't mean exe won't be. But there's still the chance that it will land. If you miss your Lotus Strike, you're waiting till it recharges before you land a twisting. If a sin looses their lead (Or starting offhand attack, whatever) attack, they're sunk.

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Yeah, and you'll find that most of the attack skill recharges are comparable to Adre charge time. Plus, if the Sin is running with Moebius Strike, the longer attack skill recharges just became irrelevant. Show me a Warrior attack skill that can recharge all of the War's Adre skills.

Dragon Slash, Auspicous Parry, sure, they're conditional, but so is Mobious Strike.

All the DPS calculations I've seen take into account the 30% double hits, and with that factored in, the numbers are even. I made that comment about dagger speed in my last post because you kept pushing sin spike times in terms of damage done in one second. While at the same time claiming that sins don't need IAS.

Schorny · May 11, 2006, 04:20 AM // 04:20

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Originally Posted by Siren

An Assassin is, too, especially when they're Critting and Doublestriking 30% of the time as they recharge their skills.

I don't want to comment on the assasins power to sustain high dps, but I personally doubt it.

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Yeah, and you'll find that most of the attack skill recharges are comparable to Adre charge time.

exactly. as assasin got about the same recharge time - though there are a few longer recharging skills...

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Plus, if the Sin is running with Moebius Strike, the longer attack skill recharges just became irrelevant. Show me a Warrior attack skill that can recharge all of the War's Adre skills.

warriors don't need to have one. they got dark fury, to the limit, for great justice,... to power their recharge.

so we can hopefully agree that recharge isn't an advantage the assasin has...

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Okay, and the Assassin wouldn't be auto-attacking why? And how could the Assassin not be doing damage while auto-attacking? Especially when they're getting Crits almost 30% of the time (2% times 13), and Doublestriking almost 30% of the time on top of that?

I never said that.

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And let's not also forget that one could go A/R and bring Serpent's Quickness for even faster recharges.

and not be able to use an IAS while spiking?
don't forget consider energy costs here...

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But that's the beauty of it. My math is completely correct here.

warrior spike in 1 sec and 2 sec if they follow up with penetrating and not 11 seconds. that is a big difference.

a spike that takes 3 hits under no ias is not a spike, i can run up to the taret and healing touch it... that is the point.

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Okay, Guardian disrupts the chain. It's a possibility. But what about Evis? If Guardian blocks Evis...why do you think Exe will have it any easier?

because I go eviscerate, executioners, penetrating.

anyone can miss (though eviscerate hurt the most) and still deal considerable damage and might even kill the target...

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After 4 seconds, the Warrior's (with IAS) had 4 auto-attacks, while the Assassin (no IAS) has had 3+Doublestrikes, which can very easily become 5 auto-attacks.

and assasins needs double strikes because they deal less damage. so it's ok for them to hit more often to stay at the same level a warrior can...

I never said anything about assasins.

all i said was: a warrior spike takes 3 seconds (if followed with penetrating) and not 11 seconds. an assasin spike (there are no good IAS for assasins, besides tiger's fury, which costs a lot) spikes in 4 seconds with 3 "hits". (though these 3 hits are really 4 hits, but it doesn't matter because they are only 3 attacks).

This is a significant difference.

and please remember:

warrior can spike with 250+ damage in 1 second. that is something an assasin can't do.

Siren · May 11, 2006, 06:38 AM // 06:38

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Originally Posted by Katari

Right, Just because evicerate is blocked dosen't mean exe won't be. But there's still the chance that it will land. If you miss your Lotus Strike, you're waiting till it recharges before you land a twisting. If a sin looses their lead (Or starting offhand attack, whatever) attack, they're sunk.

The good Assassins will anticipate such a contingency and plan accordingly, whether that's bringing a "throwaway" attack, or making sure their target isn't enchanted, or just moving fast enough to catch the other team off-guard. The opposing Monks can't be everywhere, all the time. ~_^

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Dragon Slash, Auspicous Parry, sure, they're conditional, but so is Mobious Strike.

At 12 Tactics, A.Parry nets a pitiful 4 Adre. At 12 Swordsmanship, Dragon Slash also nets a pitiful 4 Adre.

I can't think of any Warrior PvP builds that actually use more than 10 in Tactics, and I certainly wouldn't waste the attribute points to pump Tactics up to 12 or higher, just to get one or two more strikes of Adre. Also, A.Parry requires physical damage, so that's only going to be casters using their wands (or a Ranger, or Assassin)...and wanding a Warrior (or attacking a Warrior when there's very likely other targets)...should never happen.

Dragon Slash, same deal. I really don't think it's even worth an Elite. We're going to see people using it, sure, but not because it's a good skill; we're going to see people using it because Sword Elites are few and far between. In fact, given the high Adre cost of Dragon Slash, I can't even see how it's better than Hundred Blades, especially if Adre gain is what you're after. And Hundred Blades is even pretty useless, especially when the build in question is using Axes.

Plus you're blowing your Elite slot with either skill, which is completely counterproductive to the goal here: to provide an Evis Warrior with an efficient way to recharge his Adre skills quickly. But you've not given me Warrior skills that fully recharge Adre skills...because there aren't any.

If we were to look at the Axe Non-Elites...we don't see much, either. Furious Axe is the only Adre return, and the rate of return sucks. It costs 9 Adre to get 2 Adre back. And since it costs 9 Adre, when you're using it, it's safe to assume all of your other skills are either charged completely, or will be after you use Furious Axe--actually, they would have been charged completely no matter what other attack skill you used.

Warrior skills that can recharge Adre attacks? Nothing like what Moebius Strike can do. Moebus is conditional, too, sure, but dropping a target down to below 50% isn't hard with Assassin attack chains such as this one. I've done it, my guildies have done it.

Sometimes, the damage output for a Moebius Strike chain will kill the target before you can even get to use Moebius Strike. Desbreko's actually had to take out Twisting Fangs because it was killing his combo, because he wanted to actually use the Elite in his skill bar. lol. Doesn't sound like an ineffective combination/build to me when you're disappointed that you didn't get to use an attack because your target hit the floor long before you could.

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All the DPS calculations I've seen take into account the 30% double hits, and with that factored in, the numbers are even.

And yet Assassins can't match Warrior DPS? Or shouldn't try to match Warrior DPS? It's not difficult to set the attributes properly to net both a high Criticals and Doublestrikes percentage; most Assassin builds we've seen are at about that level already.

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I made that comment about dagger speed in my last post because you kept pushing sin spike times in terms of damage done in one second. While at the same time claiming that sins don't need IAS.

Oh, I'm sorry. There's an extra 0.33 in that attack rate. So instead of doing 250 damage in 1 second, the Assassin is doing 250 damage in 1.33 seconds. My mistake. That changes the entire argument now...lol. It doesn't really, though. The prep time for the Assassin spike is still much shorter, and the amount of damage inflicted by one attack is still much higher.

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Originally Posted by Schorny

I don't want to comment on the assasins power to sustain high dps, but I personally doubt it.

Doubt all you want. The numbers are there.

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exactly. as assasin got about the same recharge time - though there are a few longer recharging skills...

The key difference is that Assassin skills can always be recharging. Hell, if the Assassin was so inclined, they could just sit down and in a matter of 11 seconds, their skills would be ready again.

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warriors don't need to have one. they got dark fury, to the limit, for great justice,... to power their recharge.

When's the last time we saw anyone running Dark Fury, To The Limit! or For Great Justice! I run FGJ all the time, and I was using Dark Fury long before the majority of players, but like people here have seen...my approach to the game is highly nonconventional. More people do need to discover the wonder of Dark Fury. It's one of the best Necro skills around. It's invaluable to Warriors of any type. When you can get Final Thrust charged in three hits (FGJ+Dark Fury), you know it's gotta be good.

But we're not going to see Dark Fury being used with any regularity. Same goes with FGJ. They're some of the black sheep skills of the game.

And anyway, even though Dark Fury and FGJ are awesome, they don't address my point: that Warriors don't have any skills to recharge their Adre skills. They all either depend on hitting the target more than three or four times (Dark Fury and FGJ, and Moebius Strike shats all over them), or have such a measly Adre return that they shouldn't even be considered Elites (A.Parry, Dragon Slash).

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so we can hopefully agree that recharge isn't an advantage the assasin has...

It is an advantage. The Assassin can just sit down and be ready to go in a matter of seconds. Try that with a Warrior and you'll see why I'm saying Assassins have it better.

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I never said that.

No, but I'd read something like "It takes time to recharge them - and for a warrior it doesn't matter that he has to deal damage while doing so - because even if you don't use adrenalin skills, you still want to deal damage during the downtime of your skills..." and take it to mean you don't think Assassins should deal damage during the downtime. You're focusing on dealing damage during the downtime of your skills like it's something exclusive to a Warrior. But it's not.

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and not be able to use an IAS while spiking?

And why bother with Tiger's Fury? Disabling non-attack skills for an Assassin is a stupid idea, because there are critical skills there--some that will be used to escape if need be.

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don't forget consider energy costs here...

Serpent's Quickness costs 5E and has a solid duration. An Assassin has some of the best E-management in the game. I don't think spending 5E every 20 seconds or so will be that big of a deal.

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warrior spike in 1 sec and 2 sec if they follow up with penetrating and not 11 seconds. that is a big difference.

Read my posts, please. And actually read them. And comprehend them. And pay attention to what I was saying, because I never said the Evis/Exe takes 11 seconds.

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a spike that takes 3 hits under no ias is not a spike, i can run up to the taret and healing touch it... that is the point.

Who needs three hits? All you've got are Black Lotus and Twisting Fangs in the example I've been using. Where are you getting three from? Are you not reading my posts? Do you not

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because I go eviscerate, executioners, penetrating.

anyone can miss (though eviscerate hurt the most) and still deal considerable damage and might even kill the target...

And then again, all of them could get blocked and then you're really SOL. Why would you be using Penetrating Blow anyway? Especially when you're targeting squishies? You're going to get a crap armor penetration there, because their max AL is so low.

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and assasins needs double strikes because they deal less damage. so it's ok for them to hit more often to stay at the same level a warrior can...

And when most Assassin builds are running at the appropriate Attribute levels to get such a level of Criticals and Doublestrikes...and if the numbers regarding DPS are just about even...there shouldn't even be any debate here: both classes can match the other's DPS.

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I never said anything about assasins.

You should read who it was I was quoting previously, because I guarantee you...it wasn't you. And honestly, I don't even know why I should bother replying at this point, because it's becoming clear to me you're only skimming my posts and not bothering to see what I'm really saying.

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all i said was: a warrior spike takes 3 seconds (if followed with penetrating) and not 11 seconds.

Again, read my posts with some basic comprehension, please, and you'll see that nowhere was I saying Evis/Exe takes 11 seconds.

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an assasin spike (there are no good IAS for assasins, besides tiger's fury, which costs a lot) spikes in 4 seconds with 3 "hits". (though these 3 hits are really 4 hits, but it doesn't matter because they are only 3 attacks).

Where are you getting three attacks from? Four hits? What are you talking about? PLEASE READ MY POSTS CAREFULLY before you reply again, because you're not understanding what I'm saying and what I've been saying here. That much is clear when you think I'm talking about 3-4 attacks with an attack chain that goes Impale-->Black Lotus-->Twisting Fangs.

Quote:

warrior can spike with 250+ damage in 1 second. that is something an assasin can't do.

Impale+Twisting Fangs. Easily 250 damage. 1 second (oh, I'm sorry, 1.33 seconds *rolls eyes*) I've already went over this numerous times.

prencher · May 11, 2006, 07:24 AM // 07:24

And my dad can beat your dad.

Different classes, different uses.. sheesh. An assassin spike with similar damage to a warrior spike coming out of nowhere to your backline is where the money's at. A warrior cannot do this.

Mitsuko · May 11, 2006, 08:23 AM // 08:23

to keep the sins from running during pvp(cuz that's all they do anyway), especially 1v1... hamstring, slash away combine with other skills..

shadowmist · May 11, 2006, 09:48 AM // 09:48

Eh, there's always a counter to everything, so there really is no best. Somebody that brought counters to a war maybe can't counter an assassin.

Anyways, so far my assassin deals more damage than my war in my experience. I average about 33 damage with crits, and I tend to crit more often than not. Without a crit I deal about 10-20 damage though. I use critical eye for that extra 5% crit chance and 1 extra energy boost per crit. Critical hits also give me energy back quickly so I rarely have lower than 10 energy.

With attack skills I deal about 40-60 damage per hit average, and they recharge pretty quickly IMO. Maybe about a 3-4 second wait time between each chain if I choose to wait for all my skills to fully recharge. I usually start next chain before they're all recharged though.

With my war I feel like I deal more steady damage with a few spikes inbetween. I deal about 20-30 damage consistently with 50-60 attack skils. I also can stay alive longer than my assassin under heavy fire. My assassin tends to go down fast if any group decides it needs to kill me.

I also like assassins better for killing squishies because of shadow stepping. That combined with instant damage lets me get an undefended target down to 1/5 or so health in 2-3 seconds, forcing healers to heal. If they don't, the person is dead in the next 3-4 seconds. With wars they tend to see you coming and are more prepared. I hate chasing things as a war, even with cripple and speed boosts.

To me, in the end they have roles that the other can't do. I enjoy the critical strikes attribute more than the strength attribute of the war, but thats just me. (One of these days, I'm going to try a A/W for a critical strike axe fighter thing.)

ljohn · May 11, 2006, 02:23 PM // 14:23

Both the warrior and the assassin are damage dealers yes, and both have their own respective ups and downs. I do remember though in a pvp situation where myself and a guildie took down a ghostly hero (just her and I) and making him bleed like crazy. I'd say we took him down in under 30 seconds. One thing that I like to do is use sharpen daggers and eventually twisting fangs. If used correctly the target foe will be bleeding almost continuously (depending on if the monks help him/her out) plus throw in Locust's Fury you might even get some double strikes. I'd venture to say that a warrior could take and dish out more damage, but with as in my case 2 assassins working together they might be able collectively dish out more damage than just a solo warrior.

Elaine Donnerbalken · Jun 07, 2006, 03:51 PM // 15:51

Since the last Balance Update you can cause 232 damage using the Palm Strike-Twisting Fangs Combo (at Criticals 16). And thats only the skill damage.

With Dagger Mastery 13 you would also inflict an average weapon damage of 46 .

->278 average damage

If you want to speed up this combo you could use Flurry, which would decrease the weapon damage of twisting fangs to 34.

-> 266 damage

So yes , now assassins can spike harder than a warrior which uses Evis/Exec.

Chikara · Jun 07, 2006, 05:02 PM // 17:02

with 16 crit 13daggers , against 480health and 100armor,
if a sin does palm + fangs ( only ) ,
he hits for :
90 (palm) +
42 + 30 ( assuming you get 2 crits ) + 96 ( deep wound ) + bleeding 4 (when "fangs" hit )
that makes 262 in less then 2sec ( ~1.5 )
which means ~60% of max life