Curse

Siren · May 05, 2006, 11:29 PM // 23:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by fallot

Double strikes were factored into the DPS calculations. And they do need the IAS, to spike with attack skills. One attack every 1.33 seconds, regardless of the damage, is a poor spike. You cant get double-strikes on attack skills either.

No, but you can certainly get double-strikes on auto-attacking--something no other profession in the game can do. And Assassins don't need IAS, because they've got plenty else to work in their favor, including a generally faster base attack speed, not to mention the chance to double-strike when auto-attacking, which will boost their DPS considerably.

If you treat IAS as the key to any important DPS, of course you're going to shrug-off Assassins. But once you realize that Assassins have many other alternatives to Frenzy (some of them being inherent, latent abilities of the profession itself), you'll start to see that IAS is only important to Warriors and Choking Gas Rangers.

Quote:

Can you give me a combo that can outspike Eviscerate + Executioner's under Frenzy (2 seconds, ~300 damage) without any tricks ? That means no pre-applying hexes etc. Nothing but attack skills, within that 2 second timeframe?

Okay, see, the problem there is if I can't pre-apply hexes, the Warrior can't prep his Adre. That is only fair. To properly spike, the Warrior needs to prep Adre. To properly spike, the Assassin needs to prep one or two skills. If you eliminate my hexes, you need to eliminate the Warrior's Adre gain.

Quote:

Edit: Ok, for the proposed combo, you may use any hexes etc. that you desire. But you will have to add their cast times into the 2 second window. Its only fair, since they are a part of your spike.

I hope you realize the major lapse in your logic here. lol. Let's see if I can edit your own quote above and show you what I'm talking about:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

Ok, for the proposed combo, you may use any amount of time that you need to build Adrenaline that you desire. But you will have to add that time into the 2 second window. Its only fair, since Adrenaline is the most important part of your spike.

Get what I'm saying here? The Warrior prep time is just as long, if not longer, than Assassin prep time. Compare the Warrior Adre gain (prep time for the spike) of approximately 7-8 seconds (or if Frenzy, cut that in half) for Evis and Exe Adre costs, plus the actual spike time itself of 2 seconds, against the Assassin prep time of maybe 2 seconds (sometimes even 1, depending), if that, and then maybe 5 seconds (though that's probably even closer to 4, when I think about it) when going through the attack chain.

Now let's add those numbers.

Non-Frenzy Wars are taking 7 seconds to prep (Adre costs), plus another 2 seconds to actually spike, which means their spike takes a total of 9 seconds.

Frenzy Wars take 4 seconds (though this is being generous) to prep, plus another 2 seconds to actually spike, which means their spike takes a total of 6 seconds.

Assassins require 2 seconds to prep, plus another 4 seconds (3 attack skills at 1.33 seconds each bring it to 3.99, correct?) to actually spike, which means their spike takes a total of 6 seconds.

Now, I'm an English major, so I suck at math, but seems to me when we're talking about spike speed...Warriors desperately need Frenzy to even come close to how fast Assassins can rock out their respective spike.

And the only way that anyone here is able to call Warrior superiority when it comes to spiking is by...apparently forgetting that Warriors have a lengthy prep time of their own. The 2-second spike is never a 2-second spike. Calling it a 2-second spike is a complete mis-nomer, especially when one is using "spike prep time" as the grounds on which to imply an Assassin inferiority.

Quote:

I wouldn't call it "insane shit" but this is the way to go. Golden Phoenix Strike, Palm Strike, these are all good skills. I'm uncertain how you plan to forego off-hand attacks or at least skills that count as off-hands though.

My point was more that Lead Attacks might become inconsequential in particular builds, which cuts down on the already brief prep time required for spikes. Impale-->Black Lotus Strike-->Twisting Fangs, for example.

Quote:

This was about standing ground and attacking to apply DPS between skill chains was it not ? Why are we talking about escape?

Uh, because we're talking about Assassin players heading into the backlines to apply DPS between skill chains, and no self-respecting Assassin player would ever seriously forgo a method of escape if they're heading into the backlines? It's one or two skill slots that can mean the difference between life and death.

The Assassin in the backlines is begging for a spike, okay, but just like the Warrior in the backlines is begging for a solid Mesmer spike. And a spike that completely ignores the War's high armor rating.

Quote:

This is what I think: Smart Assassins will not be assassins, but */A's using the mobility offered by the Assassin skill lines to do other things. We are already seeing this now.

I think once people see what Assassins can do, we'll be seeing more primaries. Like I've said before, Critical Strikes alone is worth going primary for.

Quote:

Axe Base DPS w/ Frenzy = 32.6
Dagger Base DPS with CS 13 and Critical Eye = 22.15
Dagger Base DPS with CS 13, Critical Eye and Locust's Fury = 31.38

But its all about the application again. And my previous numbers for Dagger DPS turned out to be incorrect as I made one fatal oversight, let me correct them.

And look at that. With your newest calculations, DPS between Assassin and Warrior, using the usual skills, is almost dead even, with barely a 1-point difference.

LaserLight · May 06, 2006, 02:13 AM // 02:13

Quote:

Non-Frenzy Wars are taking 7 seconds to prep (Adre costs), plus another 2 seconds to actually spike, which means their spike takes a total of 9 seconds.

Frenzy Wars take 4 seconds (though this is being generous) to prep, plus another 2 seconds to actually spike, which means their spike takes a total of 6 seconds.

Assassins require 2 seconds to prep, plus another 4 seconds (3 attack skills at 1.33 seconds each bring it to 3.99, correct?) to actually spike, which means their spike takes a total of 6 seconds.

Read carefully now, this is important.

See, using an Impale -> Black Lotus Strike -> Twisting Fangs strike takes less time from the ground up than even a Frenzy Warr building adren from the ground up, and deals just as much damage, if not more, than Evis/Exe. Especially since Twisting Fangs also applies Bleeding, which shouldn't be completely forgotten. Plus, it even leaves you your Elite slot for evil stuff like Siphon Strength. Of course, Warriors in the thick of a melee can build up that Evis/Exe over and over again, while an Assassin has to wait for skill recharge - brutal in the case of Black Lotus.

But then, when there comes time for a tacitcal retreat, the Warrior must abandon any built-up Adrenaline he has and waste that potential damage, while an Assassin is just waiting for recharges. Frontloading damage versus backloading damage. If you boys are allowed to build up Adrenaline, we're allowed to Hexinate people a little to soften them up.

Since, after all, it's an integral part of how Assassins deal damage. Take away the Hexes and you're talking away part of the Assassin's potential. Would you like to try and play a Warr without any Adrenaline skills?

fallot · May 06, 2006, 08:12 AM // 08:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

No, but you can certainly get double-strikes on auto-attacking--something no other profession in the game can do. And Assassins don't need IAS, because they've got plenty else to work in their favor, including a generally faster base attack speed, not to mention the chance to double-strike when auto-attacking, which will boost their DPS considerably.

If you treat IAS as the key to any important DPS, of course you're going to shrug-off Assassins. But once you realize that Assassins have many other alternatives to Frenzy (some of them being inherent, latent abilities of the profession itself), you'll start to see that IAS is only important to Warriors and Choking Gas Rangers.

I don't think you understand me. I didn't say they needed the IAS to match a Warrior's DPS, I don't care one bit about their DPS. Whether it is inferior to a warrior's or superior is meaningless. I said, repeatedly, that they need IAS to spike. And until they have it, their spikes will come slow and be healed immediately. In between chains even.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

And the only way that anyone here is able to call Warrior superiority when it comes to spiking is by...apparently forgetting that Warriors have a lengthy prep time of their own. The 2-second spike is never a 2-second spike. Calling it a 2-second spike is a complete mis-nomer, especially when one is using "spike prep time" as the grounds on which to imply an Assassin inferiority.

A warrior building up adrenaline is actually dealing damage. An assassin waiting for skill recharges, or laying hexes, is not. That is why I didn't count adrenaline build-up between spikes, as the warrior is doing his job between them. But you may count them if you desire, because the real issue is still not addressed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

another 4 seconds (3 attack skills at 1.33 seconds each bring it to 3.99, correct?) to actually spike

No matter how you spin prep times, adrenaline buildup etc. In the end, an actual spike that takes 4 seconds is a very shitty spike. It still doesn't match to 300 damage in a 2 second timeframe, regardless of anything else. The warrior may take ten years to build adrenaline, but his damage will come in a very small duration, hopefully a duration quick enough to prevent any sort of healing. From experience I can tell you that even this fails very often, so how can a spike that takes twice as long do anything ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

My point was more that Lead Attacks might become inconsequential in particular builds, which cuts down on the already brief prep time required for spikes. Impale-->Black Lotus Strike-->Twisting Fangs, for example.

I agreed with you. Though your particular combo is too much of a warning with Impale.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

Uh, because we're talking about Assassin players heading into the backlines to apply DPS between skill chains, and no self-respecting Assassin player would ever seriously forgo a method of escape if they're heading into the backlines? It's one or two skill slots that can mean the difference between life and death.

The Assassin in the backlines is begging for a spike, okay, but just like the Warrior in the backlines is begging for a solid Mesmer spike. And a spike that completely ignores the War's high armor rating.

Lets take it from the top, before I lose myself in your argument, if you have been misrepresented in any of the following points, please clarify your position. I have attempted to reproduce what I have understood.

-I said that the Assassin cannot apply his DPS.

-You said that he could by hitting random targets.

-I stated that those targets were in the midline or backline, and he would get spiked if he approached them.

-You said that any good Assassin has escape skills to prevent this.

-Now I'm confused because an assassin that needs to escape when he approaches the backline (which he most certainly does) is not applying DPS, therefore what I said in the beginning is correct, and any comparison between Warrior DPS and Assassin DPS is foolish.

-When an Assassin enters the enemy backline, they will hurt him, he will retreat. When a warrior does the same, there will be more of a problem, since they can only hurt him so much. And whats that about a "mesmer spike" ? Are you familiar with what manner of skills mesmers carry in the current metagame ? Are you aware how many mesmers are required for a spike ? Why can warrior's safely do this now ? If they feared that oh so deadly mesmer spike ?

How much GvG experience do you have ? Sometimes you say the darndest things. This isn't meant to be derogatory or anything, I just want to know so any further arguments I make can be made according to our collective experience in this form of the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

And look at that. With your newest calculations, DPS between Assassin and Warrior, using the usual skills, is almost dead even, with barely a 1-point difference.

Have we forgotten that this is inconsequential ? And I wouldn't call Locust's Fury a "usual skill".

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaserLight

the Warrior must abandon any built-up Adrenaline he has and waste that potential damage

Thats what wands are for.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaserLight

If you boys are allowed to build up Adrenaline, we're allowed to Hexinate people a little to soften them up.

You make building up adrenaline sound like the Warrior is standing in one place and charging up. He is hitting things and dealing significant damage. He is a huge threat while building up adrenaline. An assassin, as soon as he hexes his target, has immediately called out the target of his spike.

SparhawkJC · May 06, 2006, 10:17 AM // 10:17

Guess it's time for me to throw in my two cents. I have to side with fallot on this argument. After playing with the assassin extensively this past week (71 hours) I've noticed that our damage potential has been cut by a lot. I hope we find whoever okayed the decision to move twisting fangs to critical strikes, because of that the assassin lost it's greatest spike skill. I'm beginning to think that A-net is intending for the assassin to be another condition spreader like the ranger.

As the skills are right now, the warrior is still the better spiker and has greater DPS. However as Laserlight has pointed out we get the use of some pretty nice hexes, although impale was a poor choice for your hex example. In order to get decent damage out of impale you would need to invest in 4 skill trees, which is a bad idea. I like to think of Deadly Arts as the Beastmastery of the assassin. A strong skill line no doubt, but a ranger investing in Beastmastery would be taking points away from their energy managament(expertise) and self heal/attack buufs (Wilderness Survival). An assassin investing in Deadly arts is depriving himself of energy management (critical strikes) and the mobility that makes this class viable in the first place (Shadow Arts).

As it stands right now, the assassin can make use of the strengths of all three weapon lines of the warrior in one combo. Example of this, Leaping Mantis Sting+Jungle Strike+ Mark of Instability(awesome because it's unlinked now)+Twisting Fangs. If you wanted you could even throw Blinding Powder in there just in case your target is some angry warrior who wants to lay in on the punk who just crippled, bled, deep wounded, and knocked him down.

But I digress. With the skills the way they were during the FPE, we may have been able to come close to the warrior in spike capability but those days are long gone. For now we sins are going to have to come to terms with the fact that we've ben delegated to condition spreaders with decent damage and the best mobility in the game. We're far removed from the spike monsters of the FPE but then again Guild Wars didn't need another warrior type anyways.

fallot · May 06, 2006, 10:35 AM // 10:35

Here is a nice little study, that is a good example of what I'm attempting to say. The numbers are accurate, and the insight mirrors my own views.

Read Post #9

I'd like to say clearly that Assassins dont suck in case anyone misunderstands. They add many interesting things to the game, but if they are being considered a source of damage or a good spike, there are better options. The linked post above gives some situations where an Assassin could be useful, and for the most part I agree with it.

Before I go nuts under all the spin and say something stupid, I'll just wait and see what everyone thinks of the above.

Siren · May 06, 2006, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by fallot

I don't think you understand me. I didn't say they needed the IAS to match a Warrior's DPS, I don't care one bit about their DPS. Whether it is inferior to a warrior's or superior is meaningless. I said, repeatedly, that they need IAS to spike. And until they have it, their spikes will come slow and be healed immediately. In between chains even.

You'll find that I wasn't implying you were saying they needed IAS to match a Warrior's DPS. What I was saying was that they don't need IAS in general. IAS is a Warrior requirement, because without it, Warriors have nothing to enhance their attack rate. Assassins are radically different, so why do we continue to apply Warrior requirements to them, instead of viewing them as a profession with their own ways of enhancing DPS and spike damage? And again, they really do not need IAS to spike. Good Assassins can blow through their chain quickly enough so that they can unleash their front-loaded damage way, way faster than anything else.

Quote:

A warrior building up adrenaline is actually dealing damage. An assassin waiting for skill recharges, or laying hexes, is not.

And what's the Assassin doing when the skills are recharging? Standing around and twiddling his or her thumbs? Or dancing? Or maybe attacking? Be sensible here. haha

Quote:

That is why I didn't count adrenaline build-up between spikes, as the warrior is doing his job between them.

And that's entirely the problem, because if we're talking about spike time, and time required to spike, you absolutely need to count adrenaline build-up between spikes, because does a Warrior auto-attacking make the difference, or does Evis/Exe make the difference?

Quote:

But you may count them if you desire, because the real issue is still not addressed.

You either factor in Warrior Adre gain time in your assessment or you can't base your argument on spike prep time, because it's a stacked argument if you don't acknowledge the fact that Warriors have a stupidly long amount of prep time required, especially when you're using the 2-second Assassin spike prep to say that if Assassins need a hex or two to spike, they're not good spikers, or at least they're substandard spikers. That's basically what you're saying here.

Quote:

No matter how you spin prep times

lol, I'm not spinning prep times, though. I'm pointing out something that apparently everyone has ignored in making their points about how Assassins are weak(er) when it comes to damage infliction.

Quote:

adrenaline buildup etc. In the end, an actual spike that takes 4 seconds is a very shitty spike. It still doesn't match to 300 damage in a 2 second timeframe, regardless of anything else. The warrior may take ten years to build adrenaline, but his damage will come in a very small duration, hopefully a duration quick enough to prevent any sort of healing. From experience I can tell you that even this fails very often, so how can a spike that takes twice as long do anything?

An Impale+Twisting Fangs combination (roughly 100 from Twisting, then another 50 from Impale, plus the Deep Wound) matches, if not exceeds, the damage from Evis, and in all seriousness, rivals Evis/Exe, I think. From the Impale+Twisting combination, you're easily looking at inflicting 250 damage, probably more than that. And then even more if you nab Criticals on those Twisting dual hits.

This isn't Theory Wars, either. I've seen the damage numbers when I've been on the receiving end of these types of combinations, and they're nasty as hell. They're more of a surprise for me than Evis/Exe is, honestly, because I've caught way too many Evis/Exe combinations with my Mesmer before. ~_^

And for the sake of argument, let's see how long the Impale+Twisting combination takes.

Prepping Impale is 1 second.

Going into Black Lotus Strike is 1 second.

Going into Twisting Fangs from there is 1 second.

Since we’re apparently treating Evis/Exe attacks as 1 second each, it’s only fair to give the same consideration here. So then…my math might be incorrect, but judging from the times for those Assassin skills…it looks to me that Impale/Twisting causes 250 damage in under 3 seconds. And that’s 250 damage from one attack, really. So basically…250 damage in 1 second. If you don’t use Impale, that’s still pretty absurd. 200 damage in 1 second.

For a neat design, check out http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s....php?t=3026496

Quote:

I agreed with you. Though your particular combo is too much of a warning with Impale.

If the Assassin can blow through the attack chain quickly enough, it's not that much of a warning. Plus, if we're talking about "Lookie here lookie here!" types of actions to advertise a spike, I'm always keeping an eye on the Warriors running around, to watch for patterns. And I've gotten fast enough to catch Evis in the middle of their swing. Anything is a warning sign when the opposition is on top of things.

Quote:

Lets take it from the top, before I lose myself in your argument, if you have been misrepresented in any of the following points, please clarify your position. I have attempted to reproduce what I have understood.

-I said that the Assassin cannot apply his DPS.

-You said that he could by hitting random targets.

-I stated that those targets were in the midline or backline, and he would get spiked if he approached them.

-You said that any good Assassin has escape skills to prevent this.

-Now I'm confused because an assassin that needs to escape when he approaches the backline (which he most certainly does) is not applying DPS, therefore what I said in the beginning is correct, and any comparison between Warrior DPS and Assassin DPS is foolish.

-When an Assassin enters the enemy backline, they will hurt him, he will retreat. When a warrior does the same, there will be more of a problem, since they can only hurt him so much.

Exactly. There was never a debate here so much as a continuing thought process. I’m all for Assassins getting in there and having fun with random auto-attacks. But that doesn’t mean I’m going to ignore the need for an exit strategy.

And that’s why there’s a flaw in your assessment. The Warrior needs to have an exit strategy just as much as the Assassin does. I’ve punished overextended Warriors fast enough to where they can barely get back to their Monks. And them getting back to their Monks is very, very rare when I’m in the zone, as it were. Properly specced characters can cause a lot of hurt on a Warrior. Much moreso than you’re giving them credit for here, I assure you.

Quote:

And whats that about a "mesmer spike"? Are you familiar with what manner of skills mesmers carry in the current metagame? Are you aware how many mesmers are required for a spike? Why can warrior's safely do this now? If they feared that oh so deadly mesmer spike?

When I’m in the zone as my Mesmer, I only need myself to spike a certain character into the ground, especially when that certain character has overextended. I’ve polished and fine-tuned a particular build (and my strategy and timing with it) to where I can handle most characters very easily. And the reason Warriors can run in no problem currently is because we just don’t have enough Mesmers specced in a certain way.

Quote:

How much GvG experience do you have ?

Enough. ^_^

Quote:

Sometimes you say the darndest things. This isn't meant to be derogatory or anything, I just want to know so any further arguments I make can be made according to our collective experience in this form of the game.

And that's exactly why people don't take me seriously most of the time. I use tactics and skill strategies that most would consider unsound or at the very least, highly unconventional, but I’m comfortable using them, so I can make them work very, very well. It’s a pity I’ll probably never see my strats and tactics anywhere but my own characters, but that’s not my loss. Cause it often becomes my victory. lol

Quote:

Have we forgotten that this is inconsequential? And I wouldn't call Locust's Fury a "usual skill".

How is it inconsequential, though? The Warrior is guaranteed to be running Frenzy, correct? So why is the Assassin's DPS when using the "usual skills" inconsequential? And there are other Elites in the Assassin line-up, yes, but you never know. We may very well see a build incorporating Locust's Fury.

Quote:

Thats what wands are for.

You make building up adrenaline sound like the Warrior is standing in one place and charging up. He is hitting things and dealing significant damage. He is a huge threat while building up adrenaline.

I'm all for wanding someone to build Adre, but if the Warrior needs to wand someone to build Adre...he's not dealing any significant damage at all. And if he needs to wand someone to keep his Adre up, then something isn’t working correctly, and that Warrior’s effectiveness just dropped considerably, no matter if he’s keeping his Adre up or not. Also worth mentioning is Sympathetic Visage. It’s much more dangerous against Warriors than any other profession. Against a good Assassin with proper Critical Strikes and such, losing 3E per hit means nothing, because they’re probably gaining 5-6E back with each hit.

Quote:

An assassin, as soon as he hexes his target, has immediately called out the target of his spike.

Yeah, and the Monk will immediately hop to negating that spike (a spike that, keeping in mind, is only nothing more than a singular hex at that present moment) when there are two Warriors running around, an Air Ele screwing with characters, and a Necro who’s been FoCing around. Heh. If the Assassin is quick enough, they’ll get their spike off before the Monk can react, I’m sure.

Iraqalypse Now · May 06, 2006, 09:15 PM // 21:15

I think that one of the things that many people are missing is the utility of an assassin... for pure DPS, warriors are the best damage in the game by design. However, assassins are ideal for supporting the use of blackout while attack skills are recharging. I can easily see assassin/mesmers attempting to spike a target at the beginning of the engagement, then running back to the backlines to apply a blackout to a warrior to reset their adren.

I'm not argueing that warriors aren't disruptive - making enemy characters kite, as well as messing up positioning badly, is very disruptive. Assassins can be disruptive in different ways - carrying blackout, using temple strike, etc.

fallot · May 07, 2006, 03:21 PM // 15:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iraqalypse Now

I think that one of the things that many people are missing is the utility of an assassin... for pure DPS, warriors are the best damage in the game by design. However, assassins are ideal for supporting the use of blackout while attack skills are recharging. I can easily see assassin/mesmers attempting to spike a target at the beginning of the engagement, then running back to the backlines to apply a blackout to a warrior to reset their adren.

I'm not argueing that warriors aren't disruptive - making enemy characters kite, as well as messing up positioning badly, is very disruptive. Assassins can be disruptive in different ways - carrying blackout, using temple strike, etc.

I agree completely, this is the capacity I always envisioned Assassins being used for. But people seem to go crazy when you say that a Warrior is the superior damage dealing choice.

Siren, I'm going to tentatively agree with your assesment as well, until a little time at least. I feel I'm stepping into the realm of theorycraft, some playtime is in order

. Not that I agree with everything you say, but I dont really agree with some things I've said either.

c33sh0nd · May 07, 2006, 04:52 PM // 16:52

im not a pro in any way, but i do notice the assassins have decent enough damage, that when used well will hurt as much as a warrior.

i really do hope assassins get a true frontline job eventually, because this game only has 1 frontliner, and thats just a bit crappy imo

Mitsuko · May 10, 2006, 07:39 AM // 07:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Suoon

with my assassin i can kill warriors real fast so it really matters by the skill u have and wut skills u are using

what's your sin's name in GW? .....let's make it short, u haven't come across a well played Warrior yet...

u're funny.....

Mitsuko · May 10, 2006, 07:41 AM // 07:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeremy untouchable

Assassins need to stick to atacking monks and rit, type targets...I havnt pvp vs AS in the last few days, but warrior owns them, Bad...run little fellow, kiss my hammer............I personally think they SUCK

weird...i was pvp with this sin... dude casted shadow step or whatever it is called... runs away from me..***thought i was gonna chase him*** moments later, he popped where he casted it...... it was an easy kill..

Mitsuko · May 10, 2006, 07:44 AM // 07:44

i would like the assassins try to tank those titans in hell's precipice... should be funny...

Mitsuko · May 10, 2006, 07:56 AM // 07:56

think of all the role playing games suchs as final fantasy:

in FF tactics, does the ninja/samurai deal more damage than a knight or holy knight?

In FF 2/4, does edge deal more damage than cecil or kain (excluding throws)

in Diablo 2, does the assassin deal more damage than the barbarian?

in FF7, does yuffie deal more damage than cloud?

u guys get the idea..

overall, a ninja/assassin/thief base class have never over powered a knight/warrior base class in any RPGs i've played....

I personally think the assassin suck.. I prefer a ranger over it..

Saider maul · May 10, 2006, 03:17 PM // 15:17

I have to Say the Assassin has a far higher DPS then a Warrior but with t he tanks armour/skills and the assassin 70armour with the need to teleport in and out with wasted run time the DOT has to go to the Warrior.

tortuise and the Hare situation here.
the hare can run circles around the tortuise but the tortuise can run all day.

fallot · May 10, 2006, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saider maul

I have to Say the Assassin has a far higher DPS then a Warrior

This thread is full of DPS comparisons with real numbers. So how can you say that ?

Yukito Kunisaki · May 10, 2006, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Soooo m aaaannn y pooooosss s tttsss...

What's damage have to prove anyway? Does that mean mesmer technically sucks cause he's got the lowest dps in the game [in general, on average, etc.]

Roles peeps, roles!!

Taking a character out of role is like asking a monk to tank. [not that they can't, but when the enchants and stances are gone, warrior > all]

I think some of you get a little too much satisfaction over:

"HAH MY #'S PROVE YOU WRONG, SO I'M BETTER THAN YOU!"

Erm, internet argument >> leads to >> special olympics anyone?

I'm certain beyond a reasonable doubt in this criminal court of mindboggling stupidity...

Some people just don't know how to play what and blam, blame it on bad game mechanics...

It's not like the people at Anet could just wave a wand and fix everything. [game patch, 'balance', or whatever those nice people like to call it]

With or without #'s you got to ask yourselves, do I WANT to play an assassin class?

If all you're gonna do is use game data and facts to prove someone else wrong, go to school, not to game... sheesh*

Funny, if you look at raw #'s, this game really only needs 3 classes...

Warrior, Monk, Elementalist... They possess the best 'effectiveness' of every thing in the world of rpg, everything else could pretty much be just a 'spinoff' of it... etc....

Maybe it'd be better if they just removed all the ineffective classes [as some of you geniuses have put it] and just leave these 3 in eh?

Love your class, play your class, and have fun in the game for crying out loud...

BigTru · May 10, 2006, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mitsuko

in FF tactics, does the ninja/samurai deal more damage than a knight or holy knight?

Yes. Quite a bit more actually, unless you're cheating and including Orlandu.

Venus was her name · May 10, 2006, 08:15 PM // 20:15

surely the 3 different warrior weapons have different damage rates?

so thats 3 different ways to damage?

......

fallot · May 10, 2006, 08:35 PM // 20:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

What's damage have to prove anyway? Does that mean mesmer technically sucks cause he's got the lowest dps in the game [in general, on average, etc.]

I think you lost the argument somewhere, DPS is not a measure of the viability of a class. However, comparisons were being made between Warrriors and Assassins as damage dealers, therefore DPS is one of the numbers required to confirm any statements made. No one is about to make a thread called "Damage Comparison: Mesmer vs. Warrior".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

Warrior, Monk, Elementalist... They possess the best 'effectiveness' of every thing in the world of rpg, everything else could pretty much be just a 'spinoff' of it... etc....

Your close-minded comment adds nothing to this argument. Not only did this not make any sense, it has absolutely nothing to do with anything that is being discussed. I dislike how you refer to character classes as "your" and "mine", I play and enjoy the game as a whole, it doesn't mean I am not going to bring up grievances or percieved imbalances.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

With or without #'s you got to ask yourselves, do I WANT to play an assassin class?

Missing the point, I have an Assassin and love playing him. But this thread is entitled "Damage Comparison: Assassin vs. Warrior", it is irrelevant whether you enjoy playing the class or not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

If all you're gonna do is use game data and facts to prove someone else wrong, go to school, not to game... sheesh*

A discussion where both sides bring up arguments backed up by facts is something everyone benefits from.

Katari · May 10, 2006, 11:12 PM // 23:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

Some people just don't know how to play what and blam, blame it on bad game mechanics...

It's not a matter of knowing how to play the class at all. It's pretty clear that a warrior can deal more damage faster than an ele. Assasin vs Warrior is less clear because of critical hits, and dual strikes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

Funny, if you look at raw #'s, this game really only needs 3 classes...

Warrior, Monk, Elementalist... They possess the best 'effectiveness' of every thing in the world of rpg, everything else could pretty much be just a 'spinoff' of it... etc....

Maybe it'd be better if they just removed all the ineffective classes [as some of you geniuses have put it] and just leave these 3 in eh?

I don't exactly see why you put that ele in there...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

And again, they really do not need IAS to spike. Good Assassins can blow through their chain quickly enough so that they can unleash their front-loaded damage way, way faster than anything else.

That assumes there's something special about sin spikes. Like maybe something that makes them faster, harder to block, etc than a warrior spike. I'm not aware of anything that makes them more unstopable. If a sin wants to kill someone in PvP, I see no reason they'd need IAS less than a warrior would. If all warriors needed IAS for was building adrenaline and boosting DPS, you'd see more of stuff like Battle Rage, or Bezerker's Stance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

And for the sake of argument, let's see how long the Impale+Twisting combination takes.

Prepping Impale is 1 second.

Going into Black Lotus Strike is 1 second.

Going into Twisting Fangs from there is 1 second.

Since we’re apparently treating Evis/Exe attacks as 1 second each, it’s only fair to give the same consideration here. So then…my math might be incorrect, but judging from the times for those Assassin skills…it looks to me that Impale/Twisting causes 250 damage in under 3 seconds. And that’s 250 damage from one attack, really. So basically…250 damage in 1 second. If you don’t use Impale, that’s still pretty absurd. 200 damage in 1 second.

The 1s attack time from Evice/Exe is due to IAS. You apparently don't have IAS on your sin, so that's really 3.66s. One second isn't enough of a cast time for a player to communicate to the monk that they have impale on them. However it could give a monk warrning enough to get in a guardian or RoF before someone 'spikes' him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

How is it inconsequential, though? The Warrior is guaranteed to be running Frenzy, correct? So why is the Assassin's DPS when using the "usual skills" inconsequential? And there are other Elites in the Assassin line-up, yes, but you never know. We may very well see a build incorporating Locust's Fury.

Locusts Furry is an elite that simply boosts DPS. A warrior won't be brining Frenzy purely for DPS, but a sin would be brining Locust's Furry purely for DPS. Oh, and Locust's Furry is an elite. So it would be interesting to look at numbers compairing DPS, but it would be downright silly to claim that assasins have better at DPS if all that made them so was Locust's Furry.