Curse

LaserLight · Apr 30, 2006, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Okay. First of all, yes, I understand that as a new melee-oriented class, Assassins will, inevitably, be compared to Warriors. And I will concede that Warrior autoattacks are more powerful than the average Assassin's dagger autoattacks, making them more useful outside skill use. But since this has devolved into another 'Wariers r > Asasens, u noobee!!!11!1!Shiftone' thread, let's examine one thing everyone seems to be forgetting in their mad rush to bash the hell out of the Assassin.

Thing everyone picks up on: 100AL > 70 AL. This is true, yes, and makes Warriors better slugfest fighters than Assassins.

Thing everyone fails to pick up on: 25 Energy + 4 pips > 20 Eergy + 2 pips. See, Assassins are combat casters; they rely on Energy, yes, and a good deal of it, but they have that Energy, and despite complaints about flexibility, they have a method of both recharging that Energy and boosting their damage output in the same breath. News Flash: Warriors are also extremely inflexible - it's either an adren axe spike, an adren sword spike, a half-adren hammer spike, or bust. Very, very rarely do people use Warriors for anything but adren spiking, and even then the only other real option is a Pursuit-type "Charge!" build. I've got one Warrior build that serves a different purpose, but that's one build. And guess what? His damaging skills? Enraged Smash adren spike.

Assassins, however, have a caster-class Energy pool. They're only short five initial Energy, and that's no big deal in the long run. To balance the loss of that five Energy, the Assassin has the only completely self-contained, attribute-based Energy recharge in the game - Critical Strikes. Expertise reduces costs, often drastically, but it doesn't recharge your Energy. Energy Storage gives you an Energy ocean instead of an Energy pool, but it doesn't recharge that Energy once you're done burning through it. Soul Reaping does recharge that Energy - as long as things are dying. Strength, Divine Favor, Fast Casting, and Spawning Power all do jack and shite about your Energy - hell, Fast Casting actually hurts it.

But Critical Strikes is a self-contained energy regeneration tool that also boosts your damage output a great deal. On top of a caster-class Energy pool, we have a spell-melee class which makes the Warrior cry himself to sleep at night because he can't do a quarter of what the Assassin can Energy-wise. Especially since that Assassin can go A/W, pick up his own axe or hammer, and adren spike on top of all the lovely Energy. The best Assassin builds aren't trying for straight DPS off their daggers - that's a Warrior's job, and they're welcome to it. The best Assassins are working their own unique talents to the best of their abilities. Assassins like Appointment in Damascus, with more defense-busting power than most entire GvG teams and great burst damage to boot. Builds like Bloody Barrage, attacking entire groups of enemies for high sustainable damage plus wide-area Bleeding. BUilds like the Temple Strikers I've seen around - Death's Charge, Way of the Fox, Jagged, Temple, then either finish the chain or hit Return. Or even /A builds doing much the same thing, taking advantage of the Assassin's teleports and delicious array of debilitating Hexes to cause mayhem. Want a new Cripshot-style build? Check the Me/A spreading around Siphon Speed alongside his already vicious network of debuffs. Only other skill to give you a 40% speed increase over your enemy is Dash. Like shutting down casters, but hate locking your own skills? Shroud of Silence and adren spike away. And no Warrior can catch an Assassin of either primary or secondary persuasion who is properly utilizing Viper's Defense and Dark Escape, nor could any Ranger put it down through the damage reduction.

Look beyond the daggers, people. Assassins are here to stay, no amount of complaining will change that. So instead of complaining, why not learn to embrace the new capabilities the Assassin represents? We have in the Assassin one of the most potentially flexible characters in the game, matched only by the Ranger in terms of sheer multipurpose utility. Warriors are still better overall damage dealers, yes - but that's all they are. And before you tell me that sustained DPS is all that matters, ask yourself: if that were really true, why aren't the best GvG teams nothing but adren-spiking Warriors?

Think on that before we get into any more anal 1v1 DPS discussions, neh?

DieInBasra · Apr 30, 2006, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Quote:

News Flash: Warriors are also extremely inflexible - it's either an adren axe spike, an adren sword spike, a half-adren hammer spike, or bust.

I'm pretty sure that after a few months with the assassin's people will have weeded out all the shit and we'll be left with 4-5 builds like all other classes.

Quote:

Warriors are still better overall damage dealers, yes - but that's all they are. And before you tell me that sustained DPS is all that matters, ask yourself: if that were really true, why aren't the best GvG teams nothing but adren-spiking Warriors?

Because warriors need support. You'll always try to fit as many warriors as you can into a build, because warriors kill people. Mesmers and Rangers, and to a lesser extent ele's help them kill people by adding a bit of disruption, but in the end you're never going to win without 2ish warriors, unless you're spike. Sustained DPS matters, but you need to be able to keep that DPS sustained, which is where snares, interrutpts/edenial on people with warrior hate, and prod powered Draw conditions come in. But this thread isn't about that, it's about damage.

Quote:

Think on that before we get into any more anal 1v1 DPS discussions, neh?

Well, considering this thread is about which can do more damage, you'd think that DPS/spike ability would matter. And I'm pretty sure the only one being a dick here is you. There was only one retard shitting on assassin's as a class, thanks.

LaserLight · Apr 30, 2006, 11:47 PM // 23:47

Heh...actually, it was more like people paying lip service to "there will be a spot for them...somewhere...I think" while all the while espousing Warriors and trying to convince people that Assassins may as well not have weapons for all the damage they do.

And as far as damage goes, let me ask this. A Warrior has higher base DPS due to Strength and a generall heavier-hitting weapon...right? Maybe, maybe not. Let's examine.

First of all, Double Strike. Double Strike offers a higher attack rate than any other weapon class, partially eliminating the need for Frenzy. Which, since we're comparting base DPS without skills right now, is out anyways. Now, let's look at Strength and Critical Strikes. Strength's focus is on armor penetration, while Critical Strikes induces a much higher critical rate. Strength works on every blow, while CS works only on criticals. Seems an easy choice, right? I don't quite think so, Energy aside. Armor penetration works great for chopping of some of a Warrior's higher base AL, but as base AL gets lower, so do the returns on armor penetration, if I remember my AP numbers right. If not, ah well. Critical Strikes, on the other hand, increases the damage dealt by an attack by increasing the damage dealt by an attack, not by sheering off enemy armor. Thus, CS's damage boosting, while intermittent, is less variable than Strength and better suited to taking down casters and other soft targets, which is supposedly what we're after. And let's face it - whether it's a Warrior or a Assassin, either class is going to pound the stuffing out of softies, unless the softy is carrying melee hate. In which case the Warrior is just as boned as the Assassin is. So let's say, for the sake of argument, that the damage bonuses from Strength and Critical Strikes largely cancel out in the end.

Now, let's try an experiment and toss some skills back into the mix. Warriors get back their Evis/Exe spike and Frenzy, which is, I believe, considered the core of Warrior DPS. On the Assassins, let's assume a basic Leaping Mantis->Fox Fangs->Twisting Fangs stream and...oh, since we're shooting for DPS, Locust's Fury. Looking at the two, we see a startling amount of equality in damage. Yeah, one needs four slots while the other needs three, but being realistic, no Warrior worth his salt is going without a stance cancel for Frenzy, so skill slot investment is equal.

With Evis/Exe, Frenzy, Frenzy Cancel, we get a nasty adrenal spike which charges while the Warrior is beating on things and a massive DPS boost through the fast attack rate. Not bad, considering the Warrior's already nasty base damage. At the same time, however, that Warrior will be getting rid of Frenzy the moment someone starts abusing him, which robs him of the extended DPS and brings it back to base levels plus Evis/Exe spike. Giving the Warriors their due, this is quite often enough to get the job done, but Warriors who don't cancel out of Frenzy are dead Warriors.

Assassins using a standard three-hit skill stream and Locust's Fury to boost Double Strike percentage suffer from similar problems. Most would say that having to use Energy instead of Adrenaline for their attacks is stupid. I disagree - the frontloading damage allows an Assassin to begin his beatdown the moment he hits the battle-line, whereas even a "For Great Justice!" and Frenzy-ing Warrior will need to wait for at least a short time before getting to the meat of his skillbar. That Assassin also has more Conditions at his disposal than the Warrior, and while Conditions are seen by many as useless, it is still my belief that forcing an enemy to expend resources getting rid of them makes them worth carrying. At the same time, the Assassin's autoattacks are carrying close to fifty percent rates for both critical hits and double strikes, which carries a twenty-five percent chance for a critical double strike, which is a brutal thing. While both percentages means autoattacking and sitting on a target with the Assassin, make no mistake - an Assassin against a squishy and the Assassin's armor and huge damage bonus make it nearly invincible. Now, in fairness, the Locust's Fury will likely be stripped early on, robbing the Assassin of much of its Double Strike percentage. But here's the kicker - the rest of that percentage is innate. Assassins using Daggers, which are the focus of the debate here, not only get a primary-attribute DPS booster in the form of Critical Strikes, they get a weapon-specific DPS booster in the form of Double Strike, which cannot be stripped away. The increased hit ratio of a Double Striking Assassin also triggers the infamous Vampiric mod more often, adding that extra damage to the Assassin's DPS. And while most people dislike the random nature of both Critical Strikes and Double Strikes, I find that this chaotic damage pattern makes things interesting. While I don't see the situation arising often, I could see a Monk, watching his teammate's health going down in the usual, predictable, Warrior-like pattern, suddenly twitch in shock as a double critical strike deals well over twice the damage the Assassin had been doing and drops the man just before the healing hits. Not often, and not often enough to rely on - but virtually impossible with Warriors.

And let's not forget the Assassin's increased mobility. Teleports make kiting a tricky business. Players used to dealing with Sprinting Warriors will have no way of dealing with teleports, nor will they have skillbar room to do so because they must keep dealing with those Sprinting Warriors. An Assassin materializing from thin air next to someone and catching them with a crippling Leaping Mantis Sting almost before they know what's going on before unloading a Jungle Strike and Twisting Fangs, or something similar, is doing something a Warrior can't completely mimic. Oh, a W/A can certainly take teleports along, but then they're giving up their Shocks and Gales and other Elementalist knockdown attacks, requiring either a standoff Necromancer casting Weaken Knees, use of the otherwise fairly crappy Bull's Strike, or the use of an Elite other than Eviscerate. Not to mention maintaining a heavy teleport battery (Death's Charge/Return/Viper's Defense) on a Warrior's almost nonexistant Energy pool would be difficult unless the Warrior were foregoing some of its standby Energy skills.

So. Let's consider all of this now, please Warrior players? Alongside what I'd stated in my earlier post, I would hope I've covered the Assassin's right to exist.

Spura · May 01, 2006, 04:13 PM // 16:13

I am not a warrior player, in fact I am playing assassin through campaign right now. And all I can say is they are Glass Cannons minus the cannon part.

Cymboric Treewalker · May 01, 2006, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaserLight

First of all, Double Strike. Double Strike offers a higher attack rate than any other weapon class, partially eliminating the need for Frenzy. Which, since we're comparting base DPS without skills right now, is out anyways. Now, let's look at Strength and Critical Strikes. Strength's focus is on armor penetration, while Critical Strikes induces a much higher critical rate. Strength works on every blow, while CS works only on criticals. Seems an easy choice, right?

My last impression was that strength was only applied when using attack skills. So a warrior waiting on a recharge would not get strength applied... the critical chance may be applied to all blows or just attack skills... not sure.

Katari · May 01, 2006, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Warriors:
-Realtivily independent of their primary atribute. Warriors do not kill stuff because they pump strength as you seem to imply.
-Flexable attack chains. if Evicerate is blocked, you're not nearly as likely to kill the target, but your next attacks won't be useless.
-Higher armor lets them over-extend more safely.
-Low priority target because of their armor, shield, and absorbsion.
-Can use Frenzy rather safely in PvP.

Sins:
-Higher mobility. Sure, you can tele, but then what? They can still keep kitting, it's not like you have a spamable tele skill.
-Higher energy, and higher energy attack skills. No huge advantage here.
-So people say it isn't a sins job to sit there and auto-attack. If they're not susposed to auto-attack, then just what good is critical strikes?
-Missing your lrad attack will force you to wait for its recharge. Missing an offhand makes you wait for both to recharge.
-Soft target, it wouldn't take much more to spike an assasin than it would to spike another caster, or in many cases, a ranger. Except sins have no whirling defense, or distortion equivlent (Unless they use secondary profession skills).
-Can't use frenzy as safely as a warrior. Squishy target+frenzy is a bad idea. Without fenzy, the only other IAS option looks to be Tiger's Furry. IAS is no less important for an assasin than it is for a warrior.
-Critical Strikes might actually add a good deal of DPS, while Strength does not. But again, people like to say that DPS isn't what sins care about, and they shouldn't be auto-attacking people as much as warriors.

Sins look worthwhile if the player can find a way to make them more durable, and/or if an assasin attack chain is more dangerous than a warrior attack chain.

Leaping Mantis->Fox Fangs->Twisting Fangs Is that more damaging than Evicerate->Exe Strike->Penatrating Blow? Is it signifigantly more damaging? How about Sever->Gash->Final Thrust. Sure, the sword attack chain is less dependable, and it also dosn't require an elite. If Sever misses your attack combo dies, but you can still hit Final Thrust if you wish.

Another question is, lets say You attack, then a double strike is triggered, is that extra hit calculated as damage thrown in, or can that extra hit due to double striking be an attack skill?

Could you take:
Regular hit
Regular hit
Bonus hit
Regular hit

and get

Mantis
Fox
Twisting
Regular

In the same time period? In a shorter time period if you get lucky?

houndofhell93 · May 01, 2006, 05:56 PM // 17:56

with all the shadow steps and recall and more dmg in short burst i find it fun and nice to run in hit or kill and retreat it works well in big groups where u need to kill one boss or creatchure before the rest. even if the gropup is agro happy

i think they are more on = playing ground with rangers.

sh4ft3d · May 01, 2006, 06:10 PM // 18:10

The biggest difference between these classes is the way they are played. I'm sure somone will figure out a strong dps assassin (not that it would be of much use), and I'm sure someone will figure out an even better way to make wars die. The thig is, it all depends on what kind of build you're running and how effectively each class can execute it. An assassin has the advantage of enchants like Aura of Displacement etc that make it an amazing class for leaping in and out of combat, disrupting and pressuring enemy monks. Assassins will, in my opinion, have a much greater use for the trapper style of combat in GvG. Their job is to disrupt, freak people out, make key decisions in where and when they should use their skills. It requires a level of awareness that not many players are used to yet.

Kurow · May 01, 2006, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

I'll try to calculate everything

for the builds I used:
http://gwshack.us/83e5b

base dmg I used
Sword: 34.12 damage per hit
Axe: 35.55 damage per hit
Hammer: 51.36 damage per hit

dunno the exact daggers, but I'll take 20 for base dmg

the dmg
assasin:
first attack (unsupecting strike): 20 + 27 + 36 = 83
second attack (fox fangs) : 20+21 = 42
third attack (twisting fangs) : (20+11)+(20+11)+DW = 172
total: 83+42+172=297

axe warrior:
first attack (eviscerate): 35+42+DW = 177 (5 more then twisting fangs btw)
second attack (executioner's): 35+42 = 77
third attack (axe rake): 35+11 = 46
total: 177+77+46=300

sword warrior:
first attack (galrath): 35+43=78
second attack (final thrust): 35+43+43=121
third attack: (gash): 35+21+DW =156
total: 78+121+156=355

thumper:
first attack (hammer bash): 50
second attack (crushing blow) : 50+16+DW=166
third attack: (irresistible): 50+24=74
total: 50 + 166 + 74 = 290

thumper's pet: (pet's have base dmg of a hammer)
first attack (ferocious): 50+28 = 78
second attack (brutal strike): 50 + 35 + 35 = 120
total: 78+120= 198

total of thumper + pet = 290+189=479

BTW: I took 100 dmg for a DW, I don't care if this is incorrect because everyone uses it.

I dont know about you, but my thumper definately does not do that much damage. Even then, you list DW like it can be stacked, which it cant, and other attacks like brutal strike like they are always below 50%, which they arent. Try again though.

LaserLight · May 01, 2006, 10:01 PM // 22:01

I'm not arguing that Assassins will replace Warriors as primary killers. What I'm trying to get across is that Assassins are not meant to be primary killers. Like Shafted said, and as many others have either directly stated or indirectly intimated, Assassins are a highly disruptive, chaos-inducing class excellently suited to keeping enemies off-balance. Mesmers do this already, but while Mesmers work with denial and subjugation of the enemy's battle potential, Assassins do it through almost terroristic tactics. Both classes have the same general goal, and both require exceptional battelfield awareness, but a properly speced and played Assassin is a totally different beast than a Mesmer. Mesmers toss around disruption and spelljamming like mad things and are one of the most powerful classes on the battlefield, but a Mesmer does not (typically) actively kill things. Not only that, but a Mesmer is just as susceptible to anti-caster tactics as are Monks and Necromancers, and will go squish just as easily when caught by a Warrior.

Assassins, however, cause chaos and disruption through mass Condition stacking and through chaotic, unpredictable, unstoppable movement. Though I very much sincerely doubt we have them yet, I fully expect to see master Assassin players in the future who can put an entire eight-man team on edge, watching their backs, waiting for the next teleport, the next assassination. Let's get one thing straight right now: you can't stop teleportation. Even knockdowns - even the infamous Backbreaker - aren't a guarantee of the Assassin staying put. An Assassin on his butt can still activate Viper's Defense and flash away from a spike, Poisoning his opponent and buying a precious second or two. An Assassin can activate Viper's Defense mid-cast, get struck, Poison and flash away and still finish his spell. I know, I've done it.

Proper utilization of teleportation, and proper integration of teleportation into team tactics, are both well into the future. But they'll get here, and then people won't want to play GvG without an Assassin. Because a character with that level of positional control and the undeniable ability to drop squishes as readily as any Warrior is a frightening thing.

DieInBasra · May 01, 2006, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Quote:

. At the same time, however, that Warrior will be getting rid of Frenzy the moment someone starts abusing him, which robs him of the extended DPS and brings it back to base levels plus Evis/Exe spike. Giving the Warriors their due, this is quite often enough to get the job done, but Warriors who don't cancel out of Frenzy are dead Warriors.

See, the thing is most other teams have two warriors as well, so the only real damage threat is in your backline, so you can use frenzy pretty freely as long as rush/sprint is there for you. Most warriors turn frenzy on very often unless vs spike teams.

Quote:

Yeah, one needs four slots while the other needs three, but being realistic, no Warrior worth his salt is going without a stance cancel for Frenzy, so skill slot investment is equal.

Well, it's 2 damage slots, one IAS(helpful in spikes and DPS) and then a speed buff vs 3 damage slots, one 30 second recharge enchantment(weak example, btw, even if you did admit it. Assassin's need an IAS of sorts as well.) used to increase dps, and one speed buff. Don't pretend like assassin's don't need them.

Quote:

That Assassin also has more Conditions at his disposal than the Warrior, and while Conditions are seen by many as useless, it is still my belief that forcing an enemy to expend resources getting rid of them makes them worth carrying.

What conditions kill? Two, deepwound and dazed. How much energy to get rid of them? 5, draw conditions. Burying conditions is useless, you're just feeding MendA, or it's getting bypasses by Draw. The only other way conditions kill is if you spread them party-wide, something the assassin cannot do.

Quote:

an Assassin against a squishy and the Assassin's armor and huge damage bonus make it nearly invincible.

Because huge damage bonus's make you harder to kill, of course.

Quote:

An Assassin materializing from thin air next to someone and catching them with a crippling Leaping Mantis Sting almost before they know what's going on before unloading a Jungle Strike and Twisting Fangs, or something similar, is doing something a Warrior can't completely mimic.

Aftercast still happens, so they do have a second to get out of your range. I've seen it with WM's AuraOfDis. blackout mesmers, the monk still kited the blackout well. But there's only one option if you want to teleport often, AoD, and that's Elite. Besides all that, your axe warrior spikes in two second, with the brunt of the damage in the begining, your Locut Fury assassin spikes in 4 seconds, with the brunt of the damage at the end. See the differance?

But I think I'd like to see someone do an analasis of Daggers an Crit/dual strikes, because I have to say, you're good at spin. I'm starting to believe sin's damage might not be soo bad in the right circumstance.

Quote:

Assassins, however, cause chaos and disruption through mass Condition stacking and through chaotic, unpredictable, unstoppable movement.

Please change your veiws of condition stacking one target, it really isn't a terrific stratagy.

Quote:

Not only that, but a Mesmer is just as susceptible to anti-caster tactics as are Monks and Necromancers, and will go squish just as easily when caught by a Warrior.

But a mesmer can stay in the midlines and be effective, an assassin needs to be in the enemy's backlines.

Quote:

I fully expect to see master Assassin players in the future who can put an entire eight-man team on edge, watching their backs, waiting for the next teleport, the next assassination

Well, considering there is only one reliable teleportation skill, and that's elite, it's not as big of a deal as you'd thing. And I'd like to restat e that assassin damage comes at the end of a chain, and that the chain is 3.99 seconds long.

krytas · May 02, 2006, 12:10 AM // 00:10

Well after many debates over this, i think laserlight finally nailed when he said Assassins aren't meant to be primary killers. Now lets take a warrior, in..hmm..put it in 12v12. While he's at the ressurect shrine, pounding on opponents with a simple cycle of attacking, while being showered on by attacks and getting heals and using the odd healing signet. The assassins job is to go right up to that pesky memser and unleash one or two combos of his attacks, in less than 10 seconds. This often leads to the mesmers death, as the mesmers teammates catch this and head over to kill the assassin, the assassin quickly shadow steps outta there to safety. This is the assassins job, to be the behind-the-scenes killer.

glountz · May 02, 2006, 09:20 AM // 09:20

It will be quite difficult to state what class does more damage. For the warrior, it was simple. As Strenght don't apply on auto attacks, calculating damage was rather simple with only weapon mastery as a variable.
But for the assassin, critical rates are modded by critical strikes. Double attack raise the average DPS as well. I didn't verify clearly if Double attacks were taking more time than a single attack, but that's not my feeling so far (have to make a series of tests in Balthazar's Temple).
I must say I fear assassins can be better or about the same DPS than warriors just by auto attacks -provided they have the right build. 16 Dagger mastery and 13 Critical strikes are deadly. Especially against kiting opponents who present their back to your blade, thus increasing again critical rate.
I used in RA such a build with Critical eye and Zealous daggers, I must say 60% of my attacks were critical, and my E-management was even "too much". Add to that some double attacks (criticals also), and the DPS was quite impressive (without any use of the attack combo). Without Critical eye the critical rate was still really impressive (more than 40% against kiting opponents).
I think the DPS comparison between Wars and Sins can't be based only on Weapon mastery (Wars win on this basis for sure), but must also consider Critical strikes. Calculating the numbers will take time. It's better to play and discuss on this after some weeks of testings.

Reikai · May 02, 2006, 09:54 AM // 09:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by krytas

Well after many debates over this, i think laserlight finally nailed when he said Assassins aren't meant to be primary killers. Now lets take a warrior, in..hmm..put it in 12v12. While he's at the ressurect shrine, pounding on opponents with a simple cycle of attacking, while being showered on by attacks and getting heals and using the odd healing signet. The assassins job is to go right up to that pesky memser and unleash one or two combos of his attacks, in less than 10 seconds. This often leads to the mesmers death, as the mesmers teammates catch this and head over to kill the assassin, the assassin quickly shadow steps outta there to safety. This is the assassins job, to be the behind-the-scenes killer.

or you could use a ranger and do it in 8.

MysticPain · May 02, 2006, 11:06 AM // 11:06

I think one thing that isn't taken into effect is that two warriors is two warriors. They pretty much act on their own, while targetting the same target. Assassins have an ability, when tagteamed, to be an amazing force to be reckoned with.

Take this, for instance.

First assassin uses Scorpion Wire on a target and moves away to purposefully drop him. As soon as he's far enough away that the scorp teles him, he immediately unloads with a damage based combo.

As soon as scorp wire kicks in, the assassin's tag team partner does Death's Charge (return to the teamie is an option too, but I like to keep my Return free). The target should be on his toosh at this point. The tag now unloads a combo starting with Falling Spider, followed up possibly by Death Blossom, and a decent damage combo.

An interresting mod of this is to have both pack falling spider, and fight that way, but I'm really not all that interrested in that setup.

The point I'm making here is this is PvP, and PvP in guild wars consists of expert teamwork. Warriors are, in essence, a distraction and basic damage dealing over time until their spike. Assassins have no need to wait for that power up, and their tagteam aspect is, I'm sorry, much much stronger.

You guys can argue from here until christmas about which is better at dealing damage, which I suppose is what this thread is. But I hope my example has helped make it clear that you can kill an enemy much more effectively without having the higher damage, per say.

Bring on the flames, and full dissection of my post with each paragraph in [quote]. GOGOGO!

dawnrain · May 02, 2006, 12:56 PM // 12:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

I think the DPS comparison between Wars and Sins can't be based only on Weapon mastery (Wars win on this basis for sure), but must also consider Critical strikes. Calculating the numbers will take time. It's better to play and discuss on this after some weeks of testings.

The gwonline.net assasin forum has a sticky thread with the above analysis. It looks reasonable and the conclusions may surprise some of the readers here.

Snowman · May 02, 2006, 01:11 PM // 13:11

Warriors suffer from their target kiting, which means its a helluva job to actually reach the target.

Weras Assasins cans teleport, so i guess you need to take onto consideration the assasins superior manouverability.

hmmm, Im thinking of testing a Warrior assasin now

Miakoda · May 02, 2006, 02:13 PM // 14:13

"The gwonline.net assasin forum has a sticky thread with the above analysis. It looks reasonable and the conclusions may surprise some of the readers here."

Shame you have to register to even VIEW the thread.

[copy+paste pls]

LaserLight · May 02, 2006, 07:32 PM // 19:32

Strength doesn't apply on autoattacks? Oh, how delicious.

Hm hm...how delicious indeed. You're saying that the only reason a Warrior is better than an Assassin with that axe is because the Warrior can get the four extra mastery? Not saying Assassins should pick up axes, but whee...is there any doubt that Critical Strikes is by far the superior attribute now? Especially given some of the capabilities Assassins have - in PvE, at least, I've done fine with sticking it out with a target when necessary by spamming hell out of "Watch Yourself!" 90AL for me since I use condition-reduction armor instead of +15AL while attacking, but with that +15AL armor and "Watch Yourself!", you can easily match a Warrior's basic AL while swinging. 105AL while autoattacking. Even Sentinel's armor doesn't beat that, and apparently there is no reason at all to get to the required 13 Strength aside from using Sentinel's armor.

Oh how delicious, how delicious...I may have to switch armor now. Or at least do so when it's cheaper. 105 attacking AL, that's more than enough to stick to a target and finish what little your skill stream leaves. And with Strength being the way it is, and Double Strikes, Assassins are almost bound to deal equivalent damage, if not greater.

DieInBasra · May 02, 2006, 09:08 PM // 21:08

Quote:

Weras Assasins cans teleport, so i guess you need to take onto consideration the assasins superior manouverability.

There are only Three teleport to target assassin skills, two of them with over 45 second rechage, the Third is Elite. As well, don't think you can take a tele instead of a speed buff. I've been teleported and hit with the lead attack many times and still kited away, sometimes they didn't even get the lead attack in if I was already moving. You need to be able to catch someone to deal DPS.

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is there any doubt that Critical Strikes is by far the superior attribute now?

You must have been hanging around a very differant crowd if you ever thought Strenth was a good attribute to bump up >_>. The reason people play warrior primary is to safetly use frenzy and get into the enemys backlines, for the longer sprint/rush, and yeah, for 16 weapon, which increases %damage and %crits.

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They pretty much act on their own, while targetting the same target.

So, uh, warrior's have to act alone? Two warriors always combined they aren. spikes and shocks to kill a target.

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Warriors are, in essence, a distraction and basic damage dealing over time until their spike. Assassins have no need to wait for that power up, and their tagteam aspect is, I'm sorry, much much stronger.

Ok, you get a combo in first, but after that the warrior will be dealing his spikes more often then you. And that "basic damage dealing" is more damage then can be put out by any other class. But seriously, what's so great about a knockdown with a 30second recharge and a ton of conditions and an attack the causes poison?

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And with Strength being the way it is, and Double Strikes, Assassins are almost bound to deal equivalent damage, if not greater.

I really doubt that, but even if it does, their potential might be bigger but in practise they won't be as reliable.