Curse

Yukito Kunisaki · Apr 28, 2006, 04:44 PM // 16:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieInBasra

Attacks skills don't matter after your third, and if you want to even start compareing assassin's to warriors, the sin's need to be up in the front the whole time.

6 skills and you don't have an IAS or speed buff or healing skill or snare or ressig.

An axe warrior can do 26 dps without any attack skills, 40 with frenzy, and can spike for 250-300 with two skills every 10 seconds, 7 under frenzy. I'd really like someone to find an assasin build that can mimic that. Warrior's are going to stay as the only damage class, and I still don't know where the sin fit's except as a NPC killer/flag runner harasser.

If you're fighting without any attack skills, you don't deserve to play this game so that's a moot point. [fighting without skills, u smoking something? ^_^] I've seen impale kill a LOT more people than Eviscerate {E} and Exe. Strike combos. I love warriors myself and I'd easily pit my warrior vs. any assassin, but to say assassins don't kill only means one simple fact: you just don't know how to use them, plain and simple. If I can't kill effectively with an ele, does it mean ele sucks? No, I just don't know how to use them...

Be objective before you say anything, think outside the kappa shell...

Also, it's like comparing apples to oranges in terms of play style. Just cause the sin runs away after a bit and the warrior can stay to spike more than once is pointless. To say a sin can slam your ass with a full on spike when the fight starts means he will kill you faster than building adrenaline with a warrior...

DieInBasra · Apr 28, 2006, 06:31 PM // 18:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

The baseline for pressure in this discussion is a warrior who does nothing other than autoattack a caster. With an unmodded max weapon and 16 attribute, he'll dish out the following amounts of damage:

Sword: 34.12 damage per hit, 25.59 damage per second, 1536 damage per minute; 38.39 damage per second, 2303 damage per minute while under Frenzy
Axe: 35.55 damage per hit, 26.66 damage per second, 1600 damage per minute; 40 damage per second, 2400 damage per minute while under Frenzy
Hammer: 51.36 damage per hit, 29.35 damage per second, 1761 damage per minute; 44.02 damage per second, 2641 damage per minute while under Frenzy

If you don't like the numbers, don't get mad at me. There's a mechanic in the game as to IAS not being about attacks per second, but seconds per attack, or something like that, so frenzy actually does almost double your DPS, despite the description. I won't pretend I know what I'm talking about, but I do trust Ensign for the DPS numbers.

Quote:

I've seen impale kill a LOT more people than Eviscerate {E} and Exe.

Just so we're clear, I'm talking GvG. In RA I can beleive that, though.

Quote:

If you're fighting without any attack skills, you don't deserve to play this game so that's a moot point.

How is it a moot point? You're attack skills are used every 8 seconds, inbetween those 8 seconds, what are you doing? Fighting without attack skills. Of course you'll be pulling out a spike once and a while, but DPS matters, of course.

Quote:

If I can't kill effectively with an ele, does it mean ele sucks? No, I just don't know how to use them...

If you can kill something with an Ele, you're in random arena or you're doing a 5 man spike build.

Quote:

Just cause the sin runs away after a bit and the warrior can stay to spike more than once is pointless.

Oddly worded sentance, but I think I get what you're saying. The point is that if you run away after you spike, you aren't actually dealing damage, you're spikeing. Warriors can give a constant 26dps, higher usually, and then spike onto of that. If you play a sin like you're proposing, he's nothing more then a spiker who takes 3ish seconds to spike. You need the sin to stay up there and contibute to the fight before you can say he's dealing damage.

Quote:

You get 300 dmg from Evis+Exec if you count DW in and crit on the other hit and the other hit has to be quite high, too.

35.55 damage is your average Axe hit. +42 from Evis and Exe, and you get 80+80=160, plus the deep wound, which, though "Virtual" Damage is still damage all the same, and you can't pretend like Deep Wound doesn't kill. So 260 will be you're average, not your min(my bad), but that's with an unmodded weapon.

Quote:

I'd like to see you getting 8 adrenaline in 7 seconds... You can't seriously calculate it if you're hitting people that don't kite.

Of course, I was in a vacuum, but then there are way to many variables. People will kite your attacks as well, meaning you might not be able to fuel all of your attacks, and your lead could miss, ect. 10 seconds is a much more reasonable number though, I agree.

x3x3non · Apr 28, 2006, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Why doesn't everyone just chill the hell out. Factions has barely been out 24 hours, none of you can make a fair assesment of the Assassin yet. Give it some time. Lets things play out. Revisit this thread in 4 weeks. EVERY class has a purpose! You might just be forcing the damagedealing option on an assassin, i dunno i have never played one so i am not sure what all its got. In stead of comparing assassins to warriors, why dont you just let assassins be assassing and warriors be warriors. Its like saying. OMG YOUR A NECRO YOU SUCK AT HEALING, OMG OMG. and so on.

HunterRose · Apr 28, 2006, 08:59 PM // 20:59

[QUOTE=Siren]No, you're a fool who's barely played Assassins at all but yet think you know enough to go making asinine conclusions and comparisons between Assassins and Warriors...

You must be a pre-beta tester or something, because I can't seem to figure out where your endless hours of experience from playing the sin's class over shadows all of ours? This thread is titled Damage Comparison Sin's vs Wars, so chill out

HaloGrunt · Apr 28, 2006, 09:45 PM // 21:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vermilion Okeanos

They are about the same. In my opinion though, it is kind of hard to do a fair math with the two. One primary reason is that they are on different timeline of a battle.

An assassin can go in and start doing some deadly blows as soon as battle fronts are in contact. The dual attack skills really make up for the weaker attack power of the dagger, this is where their damage become equal or above warrior's damage.

A warrior can do a huge amount of damage, but need the build up and then release. Unlike assassin, they don't need to rely on the sole sucess of the dual attack to be strong. If assassin's dual attack are constantly disrupted in some way (blind, interrupt, etc), warrior will outshine assassin.

In the end, it is all about how your team play your battle out.

I believe, there are no better solo killer than assassin. They are perfect for killing other's runner, before heal can arrive. This is something warrior can't do as well, as by the time they build their andrenline up, heal is already here; it would also be harder to control your andrenline when you don't know at what time will the runner target run off to get a flag. I would put ranger to support the assassin if anything.

I would like to see someone include all the attack skills + auto-attack in a minute long DPS chart. I certainly don't have the time to do this, and test it.

acually i disagree. assassins require certain attacks to lay out their skills, and because of this, you could run like a panzy and the assassin would have to start all the way over in his/her skill bar. ALSO, assassins lack healing (warriors have siggie) and they lack energy for the skills after one row of use. (warriors lack the energy too, but they use adrenaline.) AND the daul attack is only a CHANCE. i think assassins are just a pure waste of time.

HaloGrunt · Apr 28, 2006, 09:50 PM // 21:50

Also to add onto my assassin hating POST, they fall down like bowling pins to my touch ranger.

Vermilion Okeanos · Apr 28, 2006, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Hmm, I wasn't talking about auto-dual-attack. I was talking about dual-attack-skills, which is ALWAYS dual attack.

The rest of things you said is pretty much restating what I wrote. Aside the assassin is a waste of time; if you think assassin is a waste of time, I think you just lost the game. It is like how people used to think ranger is useless, same to necro.

Also, edit your post, instead of posting twice.

Siren · Apr 28, 2006, 10:29 PM // 22:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by HunterRose

You must be a pre-beta tester or something, because I can't seem to figure out where your endless hours of experience from playing the sin's class over shadows all of ours? This thread is titled Damage Comparison Sin's vs Wars, so chill out

No, I just know trashy reasoning when I see it. And the OP has nothing else but trashy reasoning.

Sidra · Apr 28, 2006, 11:21 PM // 23:21

+1 on anything that siren is saying. i dont have many skills for my 'sin yet, so all i've got is shadow refuge, unsuspecting, leaping mantins, fox, death blossom, crit. eye, and rez sig. At lvl 10 I soloed about 12 naga doing one quest, never dropping below 1/3 health. My skill recharges are never longer than 10 seconds, and usually the leads are ready again by the time i'm ready to start my next spike (almost right after the end one.). It seems like most of the people in this thread have never played a 'sin. I just dont know what to say.

MSecorsky · Apr 28, 2006, 11:23 PM // 23:23

Actually, each is superior to the other in the proper role.

'Nuff said.

Xellos · Apr 29, 2006, 04:41 AM // 04:41

How can you people judge so early?

From a estimation, Assasins/Warrior is the exact same as Rogue/Warrior in WoW. Assasin is frontload damage, then comes with steady income, whereas a warrior will have craploads of damage over time and eventually overtake an assasin.

The real question is whether or not the dual hits/crits/speed of the daggers can overcome a regular axe/sword/hammer using zealous. And how much utility moves you can shove in the build without gimping the assasin. To me, an assasin is somewhat at a disadvantage due to their reliance on a chain. That's like someone relying on dev hammer + heavy blow. Just doesn't work too well. However, due to the frontload characteristic of a assasin, it isn't that big of a disadvantage.

We will have to see as time moves on.

Spoony · Apr 29, 2006, 10:17 AM // 10:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by JiggyFly

One major difference bwteen the two.

Warrior: Your Eviscerate gets blocked...damn, well at least you can follow in with your Executioner's Strike and Penetrating Blow.

Assassin: Your lead attack gets blocked...damn have fun waiting on the recharge.

U are free to take a 2nd lead attack on the assasin.

Yukito Kunisaki · Apr 30, 2006, 12:54 PM // 12:54

As far as damage goes, like I said, apples vs. oranges...

Valid points were stated by DieInBasra, but you're making too many assumptions, all of which have 0 value...

Does an ele always have to be on a spike team? Again, think outside the box... Impale can shred 2/3 of your hp. [look at a Twisting Fang Critical and you'll know what I mean]

And I hope we're not going into a counter/counter debate, I don't deal in those because those people are masters of the obvious... [hexes can be removed, so?]

For defense, it's sad to say but a sin is easier to defend against than a warrior. You hit a sin with something as small as a lightning Javelin when he leads and wham, his chain is gone. But, if the sin does normal attacks instead of a full stretched combo [lesser dmg], he won't likely get his chain ruined if they try interrupting his 2nd attack I guess...

I like my warrior more than my sin, that's for sure, but if I have to go by a sin's 3+ hit combo vs. the executioner's classic Evis + Exe. Strike, I'd have to say a sin's 3 hit combo will always do more damage under best conditions and full skill use. Even if you put Weaken Armor or Barbs on a victim, Evis + Exe can't possibly match a Twisting Fangs + Impale finish...

Let's cover more than what what's in front of our noses shall we?

Xasew · Apr 30, 2006, 01:06 PM // 13:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieInBasra

If you don't like the numbers, don't get mad at me. There's a mechanic in the game as to IAS not being about attacks per second, but seconds per attack, or something like that, so frenzy actually does almost double your DPS, despite the description. I won't pretend I know what I'm talking about, but I do trust Ensign for the DPS numbers.

I knew about the mechanic, I just thought it was exactly double speed, not almost, so it's my bad. And trusting Ensign=good.

AaronSwitchblade · Apr 30, 2006, 03:19 PM // 15:19

It seems as though most of the people that are vehemently arguing agains the Assassin as a viable class seem to be Warrior players. Perhaps they're bothered that their "do-all" class might get sidelined? That people might actually want to play a different class, not a Warrior Monk?

suiraCLAW · Apr 30, 2006, 03:53 PM // 15:53

I'll try to calculate everything

for the builds I used:
http://gwshack.us/83e5b

base dmg I used
Sword: 34.12 damage per hit
Axe: 35.55 damage per hit
Hammer: 51.36 damage per hit

dunno the exact daggers, but I'll take 20 for base dmg

the dmg
assasin:
first attack (unsupecting strike): 20 + 27 + 36 = 83
second attack (fox fangs) : 20+21 = 42
third attack (twisting fangs) : (20+11)+(20+11)+DW = 172
total: 83+42+172=297

axe warrior:
first attack (eviscerate): 35+42+DW = 177 (5 more then twisting fangs btw)
second attack (executioner's): 35+42 = 77
third attack (axe rake): 35+11 = 46
total: 177+77+46=300

sword warrior:
first attack (galrath): 35+43=78
second attack (final thrust): 35+43+43=121
third attack: (gash): 35+21+DW =156
total: 78+121+156=355

thumper:
first attack (hammer bash): 50
second attack (crushing blow) : 50+16+DW=166
third attack: (irresistible): 50+24=74
total: 50 + 166 + 74 = 290

thumper's pet: (pet's have base dmg of a hammer)
first attack (ferocious): 50+28 = 78
second attack (brutal strike): 50 + 35 + 35 = 120
total: 78+120= 198

total of thumper + pet = 290+189=479

BTW: I took 100 dmg for a DW, I don't care if this is incorrect because everyone uses it.

DieInBasra · Apr 30, 2006, 04:08 PM // 16:08

Quote:

Does an ele always have to be on a spike team? Again, think outside the box... Impale can shred 2/3 of your hp. [look at a Twisting Fang Critical and you'll know what I mean]

An ele that wants to kill things has to be on a spike team, yeah. Give me an example of an Ele used for dps and I'll concede.

Citing Impale as a valid means of doing more damage is a bit like calling Lightning Surge an awesome spike skill. I'm not going to get into the silly counter/counter debates, but if a hex is a large portion of you're damage, you're not going to be effective.

I'm sorry, but Warriors are going to remain the only real damage class until someone comes up with an assassin that can do DPS to match 26/second with a 260 damage spike every ~10 seconds. Not that assassin's won't have thier place, though.

Quote:

It seems as though most of the people that are vehemently arguing agains the Assassin as a viable class seem to be Warrior players. Perhaps they're bothered that their "do-all" class might get sidelined? That people might actually want to play a different class, not a Warrior Monk?

We're talking pvp here. Anyone saying that they won't be a viable class doesn't know what they're talking about.

Suira, your base damage is unmodded, btw. Your Sword needs Sever Artery as his first attack, and Gash can't come before Final Thrust. It would be much more reasonable to exclude Axe Rake, because most axes only pack that much, and your thumper is unreasonable, because that's 6 slots, and no one is going to use 6 slots just for damage. As well, add the 10% strenth bonus to Axe and Sword. Pet's have a min/max damage of 17-41, so you're incorrect about the "same damage as hammer" deal.

Spura · Apr 30, 2006, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

As far as damage goes, like I said, apples vs. oranges...

Valid points were stated by DieInBasra, but you're making too many assumptions, all of which have 0 value...

Does an ele always have to be on a spike team? Again, think outside the box... Impale can shred 2/3 of your hp. [look at a Twisting Fang Critical and you'll know what I mean]

And I hope we're not going into a counter/counter debate, I don't deal in those because those people are masters of the obvious... [hexes can be removed, so?]

For defense, it's sad to say but a sin is easier to defend against than a warrior. You hit a sin with something as small as a lightning Javelin when he leads and wham, his chain is gone. But, if the sin does normal attacks instead of a full stretched combo [lesser dmg], he won't likely get his chain ruined if they try interrupting his 2nd attack I guess...

I like my warrior more than my sin, that's for sure, but if I have to go by a sin's 3+ hit combo vs. the executioner's classic Evis + Exe. Strike, I'd have to say a sin's 3 hit combo will always do more damage under best conditions and full skill use. Even if you put Weaken Armor or Barbs on a victim, Evis + Exe can't possibly match a Twisting Fangs + Impale finish...

Let's cover more than what what's in front of our noses shall we?

You are comparing 2 skill warrior combo to 4 skill assassin combo(which also makes the spike more obvious).

Warrior DPS is higher, and warrior has way better 2 sec spike. Warrior has better survivability. Warrior is harder to shut down. If you play assassin as a spiker then he is no better than any ele or mesmer with PP/SD. In fact in spike team PP/SD mesmer is way better, because unlike assassin he doesn't sit with thumbs up his ass when not spiking like assassin does.

If I want DPS I take warrior. If I want spike I take any of the casters and warrior spike is faster than assassin spike.

Also assassin is kinda forced into daggers + crit strike. With only daggers you have incredible energy problems. Assassin in general relies very much on getting energy from crits, forcing player to pump crit attribute, and thus assassin has no build flexibility as far as attributes go. Warrior can take weapon attribute and ignore the rest, assassin will have gigantic energy problems.

Vermilion Okeanos · Apr 30, 2006, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

I'll try to calculate everything

for the builds I used:
http://gwshack.us/83e5b

base dmg I used
Sword: 34.12 damage per hit
Axe: 35.55 damage per hit
Hammer: 51.36 damage per hit

dunno the exact daggers, but I'll take 20 for base dmg

the dmg
assasin:
first attack (unsupecting strike): 20 + 27 + 36 = 83
second attack (fox fangs) : 20+21 = 42
third attack (twisting fangs) : (20+11)+(20+11)+DW = 172
total: 83+42+172=297

axe warrior:
first attack (eviscerate): 35+42+DW = 177 (5 more then twisting fangs btw)
second attack (executioner's): 35+42 = 77
third attack (axe rake): 35+11 = 46
total: 177+77+46=300

sword warrior:
first attack (galrath): 35+43=78
second attack (final thrust): 35+43+43=121
third attack: (gash): 35+21+DW =156
total: 78+121+156=355

thumper:
first attack (hammer bash): 50
second attack (crushing blow) : 50+16+DW=166
third attack: (irresistible): 50+24=74
total: 50 + 166 + 74 = 290

thumper's pet: (pet's have base dmg of a hammer)
first attack (ferocious): 50+28 = 78
second attack (brutal strike): 50 + 35 + 35 = 120
total: 78+120= 298

total of thumper + pet = 290+289=579

BTW: I took 100 dmg for a DW, I don't care if this is incorrect because everyone uses it.

Nice try, but I don't think it is a fair and detailed research.

Kotoso · Apr 30, 2006, 07:51 PM // 19:51

comparing dps without mentioning that your attacking different targets at different times is like saying an elementalist gets mad dps .1 seconds after a meteor