Curse

Manic Smile · Jun 06, 2006, 07:22 AM // 07:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

- Verata's stopped working for keeping them up after three and change, and by minute five you're having to spam Heal Area / BotM to keep them up. It was those time constraints that capped you out on minions, 'useful corpse generation' and whatnot, before your minions hit the degen wall and just expired. Once you're steamrolling you pick up less corpses per pack in the interest of time, and you hit a sort of steady state on how many minions you have up - in my experience, somewhere in the 30s, maybe 40s depending on the zone

50 is not so far off from 40 and that's all I stated, that it's not hard to keep a constant 50'ish' up without slowing the party down trying to fight the minnion degen. And a mob of 8 still dies slow enough to get 2-3 mobs as the battle goes....it might not be 3 fiends but 2 fiends and a horror isn't unreasonable on the average. You end up replacing enough to keep 50ish up without standing around all day. In fact staying around to raise 1 or 2 more instead of moving on to the next acutally costs you in the end.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I hit Raisu with minions for the first time a couple nights ago, hit it at 20 and change with some bitterness and haven't really desired to go back and try for the masters...though I did have to slow down a bit to clean up Silver Armor deaths at one point.

It's just an example of the speed a MM can keep up. I know 8(?) party teams that can't beat the mission in that time. There is no reason a MM has to hold back a team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I think the difference is from Heal Area. Before you wanted to make good use of that skill for good heals mid-battle - getting your fiends to bunch up for Heal Area while attacking was huge, and it got you a lot of healing in transit. Now that tactic really isn't neccessary, so all the interesting Heal Area positioning became obsolete in favor of BotM spam.

I disagree, I keep a constant cast of BotM as I lose next to no minnions that way and that = 1 HA every 3 BotMs or so. And I don't have to be near my minnions while I BotM once they are engaged so I can reinforce a warrior in the front lines for all I want once he has aggro. BotM has only increased the freedom of the HA, and since I have two and energy is even less of a concern I can go ape shit with it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Yeah that's a thing that crushes minions at times, their perfect willingness to fire into a rock over and over again, unwilling to break aggro until their target has died. Lost some nice armies back in the day to that. You really want to know where to engage from in certain areas to avoid those problems. Not the most difficult thing in the world, but experience certainly helps. =)

*cough* thirsty *cough* experience eliminates that problem for the most part, knowing where they glitch and how to draw aggro around it

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

The argument that because several things are broken you cannot fix any particular broken thing is irrational.

That is not my argument. My argument is simply that A.net has shown through it's behavior in the past to have little concern in reguards to how overpowered something is in PvE unless it's breaking the game economy...farming/botting/exploits. So there were my examples of how the MM being 'retardedly overpowered' in PvE is irrelvant to why they were nerfed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I'm telling you that I do not accept the basis for your argument and therefore there's no need to refute any particular part of it.

I'm confused, what is there that is not strait forward.

A.net cares little for PvE balance in and of itself.(debateable I admit)
The MM build was nerfed.
The MM was not usable for farming/botting/exploits.
The MM build must have been nerfed for PvP reasons.
Halls MF is little used and of no significance.
The MM build was nerfed right before the release of the ABs.
The nerf was becaue of the ABs.
A.net must feel human players were unable to deal with large minnion armies.

This is kinda rushed but lets start with this where is the problem in my logic chain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Alliance battles are about map control. Forcing your opponent to retreat from whatever position you happen to be in is a significant advantage, you get to push them around, capture and maintain points more easily. If they can't get near you without dying, their movement is clearly restricted, and that's a huge part of a game that's about moving around the map quickly, wouldn't you say?

Peace,
-CxE

And from what I've experienced map control is about freedom of movement.

Charge warriors > MM by a lot

Camped out by himself the MM is vaunerable. With back up that diverts resources to a fixed spot that would be otherwise mobile. Let the MM stay there/avoid it if it comes at you and forcus on the other points. It's hard to stay mobile casting BotM every moment...perhaps the reason for the VS nerf.

Ensign · Jun 06, 2006, 08:54 AM // 08:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manic Smile

I disagree, I keep a constant cast of BotM as I lose next to no minnions that way and that = 1 HA every 3 BotMs or so.

Er, I think you misunderstood what I was saying. Maximal use of Heal Area used to be vital for maintaining a truly large horde, and that use is where most of the 'skill' in the MM came from. With the current version of BotM, maximal Heal Area usage is hardly neccessary eliminating a lot of the 'skill' of the build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manic Smile

That is not my argument. My argument is simply that A.net has shown through it's behavior in the past to have little concern in reguards to how overpowered something is in PvE unless it's breaking the game economy...farming/botting/exploits.

I think it's a little more complex than that. Their history is not one of ignoring PvE balance issues, but ignoring PvE balance issues that don't severely affect the game experience for a significant majority of their playerbase. If you have a trick build that solo farms they really don't care, unless, as you said, it breaks the game economy and starts to affect other players. But if the overpowered trick build you developed was something that people wanted to play in a group, then it becomes a problem. People begin to see it, start demanding it for their teams. Everyone has to start using the build if they want to just play the game, or use a certain exploitative trick when they do a mission - ala the book.

If the minion master was a solo template, I'm pretty sure it would have been largely ignored. But because it was a common template for team play, one that made the rest of the players obsolete once it got rolling, that's the sort of thing that garners attention. It affects casual players directly, because those characters were in their groups, and that's why it got addressed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manic Smile

The MM build must have been nerfed for PvP reasons.

I am amused by the process of logic here. You conclude that it had to have been nerfed for PvP reasons, because you assume that A.Net doesn't care about PvE. Are you really so jaded? It is downright fascinating to me that a large balance change comes into the game that directly affects the most powerful PvE archtype - alongside changes to the book trick, I might add - and the immediate and enduring reaction is that it's a PvP nerf.

It's pretty obvious where those threads about A.Net not caring about PvE come from, when everything that can possibly be attributed to PvP is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manic Smile

And from what I've experienced map control is about freedom of movement.

And thus a character template that seriously hampers an opponent's freedom of movement, by cutting off sections of the map and forcing him to run further to accomplish his goals, is bad because?

Peace,
-CxE

Carinae · Jun 07, 2006, 02:44 AM // 02:44

Things I DO like about the changes:

Flesh Golem
Increased Versatility- I can run any secondary now, and have space on my bar for some extra skills.
More Energy- The cap keeps me a full energy nearly all the time.

Cultists Fervor, Vampiric Spirit and Opressive Gaze are also nice when in Blood Mode.

Manic Smile · Jun 07, 2006, 05:03 AM // 05:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Er, I think you misunderstood what I was saying.

yea, and I've bitched about what you really ment...somewhere on Guru

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I think it's a little more complex than that. Their history is not one of ignoring PvE balance issues, but ignoring PvE balance issues that don't severely affect the game experience for a significant majority of their playerbase.

Again what of Protective Spirit? Why after all the nerfs this game has had does it still survive? Why has A.net touched everything else to stop 55 farming but the damn PS spell itself but shread VS for the MM?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

If you have a trick build that solo farms they really don't care, unless, as you said, it breaks the game economy and starts to affect other players. But if the overpowered trick build you developed was something that people wanted to play in a group, then it becomes a problem. People begin to see it, start demanding it for their teams. Everyone has to start using the build if they want to just play the game, or use a certain exploitative trick when they do a mission - ala the book..

You know after thinking about all the examples that come to mind, I do agree with what you say here and above. But A.net handled it very heavy handedly in reguards to VS and the overall playability(not function) of the MM. I never said MM wasn't overpowered, just no more then any of the other 10ish common builds, I never said I didn't expect a nerf but the MM now in many places isn't much fun to play and that has nothing to do with the minnion cap. If they made it less tedious and kept me engaged like the old build did I could care less about that at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

If the minion master was a solo template, I'm pretty sure it would have been largely ignored. But because it was a common template for team play, one that made the rest of the players obsolete once it got rolling, that's the sort of thing that garners attention. It affects casual players directly, because those characters were in their groups, and that's why it got addressed.

In SF the rest of the party was hardly obsolete, you needed the gear trick to keep focus. Ever try SF with only 4 without a gear tank? Ever try the difference between SS and no SS in SF? The build was cheap but balanced imo. And beyond SF there isn't really a place where you 'need' a MM...in the mind of common pugs which is what this is about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I am amused by the process of logic here. You conclude that it had to have been nerfed for PvP reasons, because you assume that A.Net doesn't care about PvE. Are you really so jaded? It is downright fascinating to me that a large balance change comes into the game that directly affects the most powerful PvE archtype - alongside changes to the book trick, I might add - and the immediate and enduring reaction is that it's a PvP nerf.

I'm glad to provide you entertainment...but that aside, book trick effected farming, effecting entire economy and was an exploit that was widely used. It fits within my logic chain. And why did A.net wati till Factions to address the MM overpoweredness.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

It's pretty obvious where those threads about A.Net not caring about PvE come from, when everything that can possibly be attributed to PvP is.

That wasn't a bash on PvP. I don't think less of PvP because I feel A.net nerfed the MM due to it. I don't think PvE is an afterthought of PvP but I do think as far as game balance PvP comes first for the attempted equity between casual PvP players and the hardcore and that balancing PvE and PvP play are sometimes mutually exclusive. I just think A.net got worried and rushed the change.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

And thus a character template that seriously hampers an opponent's freedom of movement, by cutting off sections of the map and forcing him to run further to accomplish his goals, is bad because?
-CxE

Because with 12 players, at least 3 viable splits, and with 7 cap points in a semi-circleish design where are the choke points? I'm not saying it wouldn't have an effect I just don't think it would be the huge game changing powerhouse A.net feared.

Ensign · Jun 07, 2006, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manic Smile

Again what of Protective Spirit? Why after all the nerfs this game has had does it still survive? Why has A.net touched everything else to stop 55 farming but the damn PS spell itself but shread VS for the MM?

55ers are solo farmers, they don't show up in pickups. 55ers are terrible in pickup groups - if they can't keep aggro focused upon them their energy becomes terrible and they can't maintain Protective Spirit, let alone cast anything productive. Hence the number of 55ers in the game is largely invisible, outside of certain districts where they tend to congregate in towns. That makes them a lower priority in general. Why haven't they touched Protective Spirit? I can't say for sure. My gut feeling is that the skill would have to be re-coded to make the appropriate changes to it, and due to it being lower priority that just hasn't happened.

Verata's Sacrifice was not nerfed so hard to trash the minion master, but to compensate for the huge buff to Blood of the Master. My understanding is that because BotM was going to be the core skill, it needed to be good, and I would assume they were wary of giving people two good maintenence skills. As I never bothered running Blood of the Master before the change, I'm not too bothered by the switch. The difference is that while BotM is more powerful, it's also a lot more tedious, hence these discussions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manic Smile

I never said I didn't expect a nerf but the MM now in many places isn't much fun to play and that has nothing to do with the minnion cap. If they made it less tedious and kept me engaged like the old build did I could care less about that at all.

I agree with that. Losing Verata's Sacrifice, while possibly neccessary from a power standpoint, sure did make moving minions around orders of magnitude more tedious. That was likely an unforseen problem with that nerf. The minion cap makes the build a bit more tedious in its own way, by removing the neccessity of good micro.

Of course at the same time, that infrastructure is less neccessary now so you could potentially find other things to do with your time and energy while maintaining minions now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manic Smile

In SF the rest of the party was hardly obsolete, you needed the gear trick to keep focus. Ever try SF with only 4 without a gear tank? Ever try the difference between SS and no SS in SF?

That 5 man team was, essentially, 4 abusive characters and a healer. The big strength of that team was that it could succeed easily even if one of the members was mind-blowingly incompetent, or dropped from the group entirely.

If anyone in that group was a keystone, it was the gear tank, because when he dropped both the bonder and the spiteful guy lost a lot of their power. The MM could tank decently, but it isn't quite the same. Losing the healer sucked but if the gear tank was good he'd survive fine with the enchants alone.

You only had two sources of damage, Spiteful and horde. Of course losing one of those two hurt, it cut your damage in half. Many of the advantages of the horde were fairly irrelevant on that team, as the defense of a huge horde didn't matter when you were funneling all damage onto a gear tank. It was still the best source of damage you could find, though, so w/e.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manic Smile

but that aside, book trick effected farming, effecting entire economy and was an exploit that was widely used. It fits within my logic chain. And why did A.net wati till Factions to address the MM overpoweredness.

PvE exploits are victimless. Players use them to get extra loot, and the targets of those exploits are AI monsters that don't care. Victims of overpowered PvP builds are other players, who most certainly do care. Nerfing of overpowered PvP builds is generally welcomed by the community, while fixing a broken PvE build results in endless bitching and crying. The reaction and desires of the community play into what takes precedence pretty heavily, I'd think.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manic Smile

Because with 12 players, at least 3 viable splits, and with 7 cap points in a semi-circleish design where are the choke points?

At the res shrines generally. Particularly on Saltspray, where a res shrine is de facto control of the two points behind it, while threatening the center at the same time. I do not think it is possible to win that map if the other team has firm control over both res shrines.

Peace,
-CxE

xenoranger · Jun 07, 2006, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Things I DO like about the changes:

Flesh Golem
Increased Versatility- I can run any secondary now, and have space on my bar for some extra skills.
More Energy- The cap keeps me a full energy nearly all the time.

Cultists Fervor, Vampiric Spirit and Opressive Gaze are also nice when in Blood Mode.

too bad you can't run Cultist Fever and Vampiric Spirit togather without being an N/Me (Arcane Mimicry).