Curse

Carinae · May 24, 2006, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by xenoranger

[list][*]MINION NUMBER ADJUSTMENT

Now.. a single MM could easily have 63 minions (usage of horrors and fiends) pre-adjustement. They could also be maintained for quite a while. (some say 6 min, I had them running a bit longer in some cases) Cutting the number of minions you can manage at once was a nerf. Otherwise you could use the Offering of Blood + Vampiric horrors + verata's sacrifice to be an invinci-necro. Just think about an alliance battle. You have an MM killing and making new minions with every kill.All you need is arcane echo, and you can make new VHorrors pretty quick. Plus, keeping them alive woudln't have been too hard. So, a warrior attacks you and does 28 damage (I think that's max). You have 2 Vhorrors doing 18 damage. That's 36 energy regained. The warrior would have to seriously be using skills and degen to keep you down b/c the average MM (pre adjustment) would carry 16+ minions. If you casted mainly VHorrors, you'd own without ever going down. Just, Offering of Blood, and you get teh boost to recast.

I have been an outspoken critic of the nerfing, apparently that makes me a wannbe.

Was 40-50 minions too much? Maybe. Probably.

But invincible? Come on! We were certainly killable. There is an enitre (rarely used) skill line for hurting MMs. There are tactics availabe both offensively and defensively against MM's.

But you had to know HOW to go about attacking a MM. The strategies for dealing with MMs were very different from people were used to dealing with. Sure, we could wipe Warriors and Assassains all day if they played Rambo.

I still resent the fact that time wasn't alottted for the community to learn how to play AGAINST a minion master....and then make adjustments, as necessary.

Nitradamus · May 25, 2006, 01:05 PM // 13:05

Do you recomend buying the minion master armour?

Another question: Is it posible to cap Flesh Golem on a Tyrian Necromancer? I have gotten my
necro to Cantha, but the map is different from the map on my canthan characters.

Hemophiliac · May 25, 2006, 01:47 PM // 13:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nitradamus

Do you recomend buying the minion master armour?

Another question: Is it posible to cap Flesh Golem on a Tyrian Necromancer? I have gotten my
necro to Cantha, but the map is different from the map on my canthan characters.

yup you can cap it with a Tyrian Necro, the map is really the same expect for you either get Vizunah Square (local) for a Canta character or Vizunah Square (Foreign) for a Tyrian character. Either way 'Rhial The Bone Dancer' is in the same spot, which can be a pain to get to......

xenoranger · May 25, 2006, 02:08 PM // 14:08

Meh.. I find revenant armor is better than MM armor. Just preference.

Iwouldn't use MM armor b/c even though you can get a +15 to AL with 5+ minions, it doesn't do a whole lot for your defense in the long run.

And.. BTW, Yes, 56 minions. I was never touched. I managed 25 minions in a GvG (Animate Minions) and we won b/c I kept using them to clog respawn points. Again, never touched in that battle.

The reduction of minions seperates the wannabes. If you can't make the new system work, then you just wannabe an MM. Once you can get it to work, then you are an MM.

Kijik Oni Hanryuu · May 25, 2006, 02:43 PM // 14:43

nice way to say it xeno, well uh time for my two cents. Ok I think that the best minions combo is golem,VHorr, and horr for full body block, when I had a full regimen of minions up the monks didnt get touched except by those darned teleporting assassins>.< they are definitely anti-mm (tele behind minions party proceed shanking MM), also the MMs also got a new strength,damage dealing, well here is my build
Death Magic:16(12+1+3)
Soul Reaping:14(12+2)

Deathly Swarm
Deathly Chill
Bitter Chill
BoTM
Horror
Vhorror
Golem
Res(or Verat's AUra for PvP)

I find one enemy spam bitter chill until he has lower health than me, use deathly chill, then deathly swarm rinse and repeat, then raise golem, do this to the next few guys make minions build momentum and begin plowage.
I find that I can manage energy fairly well by going Vhorr, then two horrs then Vhorr again, and when there are no corpses I make my own

Well gl to all ye MMs.

xenoranger · May 25, 2006, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kijik Oni Hanryuu

nice way to say it xeno, well uh time for my two cents. Ok I think that the best minions combo is golem,VHorr, and horr for full body block, when I had a full regimen of minions up the monks didnt get touched except by those darned teleporting assassins>.< they are definitely anti-mm (tele behind minions party proceed shanking MM), also the MMs also got a new strength,damage dealing, well here is my build
Death Magic:16(12+1+3)
Soul Reaping:14(12+2)

Deathly Swarm
Deathly Chill
Bitter Chill
BoTM
Horror
Vhorror
Golem
Res(or Verat's AUra for PvP)

I find one enemy spam bitter chill until he has lower health than me, use deathly chill, then deathly swarm rinse and repeat, then raise golem, do this to the next few guys make minions build momentum and begin plowage.
I find that I can manage energy fairly well by going Vhorr, then two horrs then Vhorr again, and when there are no corpses I make my own

Well gl to all ye MMs.

Hmm.....
Honestly, I hate MM's that use fiends and Vhorrors. It's stupid if you have a golem b/c you can't use Offering of Blood to help with the energy cost.

I use a Blood Death Mix.. but if I go pure death (like you are) I use different skills.

Have you tried Taste of Pain? Excellent HP management when you have VHorrors. Just find an enemy that's getting swarmed, adn as soon as he's below 50% HP, hit taste of pain.

I also bring Soul Feast. Sure it kills a corpse, but it also heals me when monks are too lazy or AI is failing.

Another helpful hint is Well of Suffering. If you have that active and your minions have an enemy trapped in the well, even Lassie can't save them.

Rotting Flesh is a nice openning move for PvE, but not PvP.

I'll have to post my Dual MM Build sometime. I have a nice build that supports 2 golems and makes a near invincible horde.

BTW, Kijik Oni Hanryuu...
I will have to say that Death Swarm isn't that useful. The problem is that it does nice damage but a 3 sec casting time is too long. I usually just spam BotM. That keeps minions killing for a while. Plus I try to make my horde Vhorror heavy. 9 Vhorrors damaging enemies is some nice HP recovery. Even monks cant' keep up with that (generally speaking). And Pickles (my golem's name) is a really nice tank.

Nitradamus · May 25, 2006, 03:31 PM // 15:31

Im having a hard time capping Flesh golem. Does anyone have advice?

Carinae · May 25, 2006, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nitradamus

Im having a hard time capping Flesh golem. Does anyone have advice?

Leave Senji's north exit
Turn right
Cross bridge (hard battle here with a Rit boss)
Go straight north about 4 inches on the map
There is a big brown square when the FG boss is.
The boss is on the West side of the square.

BanaXX · May 27, 2006, 05:14 PM // 17:14

For all you people who are still asking about the bone spiral rod and bleached skull 20/20.

They are found in VasBurg Armory. You can buy it from there. Also the bleached skull also exists as a collector's item in House of Zu Heltzer.

Thx,
BanaXX

Shinigami God · May 28, 2006, 10:23 PM // 22:23

I personally think the update was a buff and a nerf at the same time, but really it just made the MM a fair build. Before the nerf, if you have 80 minons, you're not gonna get touched, and if you do you may wanna get checked for mental damage. But the addition of golems increased MM proficiency a lot, because they are invincible (to an extent, just make a new one when the old one dies

) and are really better than a pet, doing 50 damage a hit on average (unless you focus your build on pet attacks, but then you yourself are much less useful.) I don't like vamp horrors simply because of the 25 energy, I like my fiendys very much and I find the range helps them stay alive while I BotM them. My build is as follows:

1. Bone Horrors
2. Bone Fiends
3. BotM
4. Verata's Sacrifice
5. Flesh Golem
6. Death Nova
7. Taste of Death or Heal Area
8. Res (PvE) or Verata's Aura (PvP)

But usually in pvp I go mass degen, but this is a different story. Anyway, not a nerf people, it'd be cool to have 80 golems out but guess what? The Necro would be more common than the W/Mo.

BaseKid · May 28, 2006, 11:26 PM // 23:26

I personally like the update...and you dont need offering of blood in a build to help with energy cost. Of course, it was fun controlling a ton of minions instead of ten, but hey, it was right of Anet to do. (OMFG i just said it =/)

First off, if you dont have golems, this is the build i use:
N/E, 16 death 13 soul
Glyph of Renewal [E]
Veratas Sacrafice
BotM
Bone Fiends
Bone Horrors (dont like Vamp horrors because 25 energy to heal me and not the minion? nty)
Glyph of lesser energy
death nova/rotting flesh
Rez

^this makes the nerf of veratas sacrafice more bearable, and minions can last quite a long time in comparison to most builds floating around without golems.

With Golems:

well...here there is a couple options. You can go to a risky MM build where you control more than one flesh golem:
N/Mo
16 death, 13 soul
Bone Fiends
Bone Horrors
BotM
Veratas sac
Flesh Golem
Veratas Aura
Contemplation of Purity
Rebirth/rez
...this in my opinion is really risky, and suspectable to enchantment removal at the wrong time (if you get what i mean...cop is the key to this build)

or just make a plain MM (16 death, 13 soul- a common pattern isn't it?)
Flesh Golem (recyclable, just for u)
Bone Horror
Bone Fiend
Veratas Sac
BotM
Death Nova
Rotting Flesh
Rez

of course, these are what i like to play, and change skills depending on where i want to and who I'm facing.

MM is one of those things that are easy to run, and can vary in skills. However, OoB in my opinion is a waste of time. Especially when u get 10 minions..u can recycle minions and gain energy that way. These are mainly pve builds...in pvp i use similar to the post above

ajmorgan25 · May 29, 2006, 06:25 PM // 18:25

Hey, I was thinking about making an MM myself. I just want to know something. When you have a bunch of minions out, how hard is it to keep them all healed? Because I started one, but in the beginning of the game since they were so low of levels it was hard to keep them healed. Does it get easier later on in the game??

Manic Smile · May 31, 2006, 09:13 AM // 09:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by xenoranger

Meh.. I find revenant armor is better than MM armor. Just preference.

Iwouldn't use MM armor b/c even though you can get a +15 to AL with 5+ minions, it doesn't do a whole lot for your defense in the long run.

And.. BTW, Yes, 56 minions. I was never touched. I managed 25 minions in a GvG (Animate Minions) and we won b/c I kept using them to clog respawn points. Again, never touched in that battle.

The reduction of minions seperates the wannabes. If you can't make the new system work, then you just wannabe an MM. Once you can get it to work, then you are an MM.

so your apponent was unpreparied...one case does not prove your point...not to mention your were more exploiting a map design flaw then anything camping is always a problem. Having played MM for a long time I can tell you right now there are many weaknesses.

The new MM build is so easy to use it's laughable...I mean it's on the level of bonder in a keg party...rense and reuse all day.

And VS is still teh broken...

.defekt · May 31, 2006, 09:28 AM // 09:28

I find N/E is really good for MM. I use all the regular MM skills, and Glyph of Lesser Energy (for Golem) and Ward vs Melee. Works out quite well.

xenoranger · May 31, 2006, 03:40 PM // 15:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manic Smile

so your apponent was unpreparied...one case does not prove your point...not to mention your were more exploiting a map design flaw then anything camping is always a problem. Having played MM for a long time I can tell you right now there are many weaknesses.

The new MM build is so easy to use it's laughable...I mean it's on the level of bonder in a keg party...rense and reuse all day.

And VS is still teh broken...

There are too many weaknesses to an MM, so yes, you can easily defeat one. That's why I refer to MM as the lowest form of Necromancing. Although I've prided myself for long in using MM, I've always found that it's a pretty weak build.

As far as that one instance, that's 1 out of a few. Dragging a zerg of minions into a spawn point really hurts the enemy's ability to fight back. They rez, then are forced into a fight. It was quite an effective strat. Then the MM Adjustement made it so minions are more expected in GvG and PvP. Now, everyone brings atleast 1 anti-MM skill.

The adjustment did improve MMing, but it also made MM's easier to take down.

Carinae · Jun 01, 2006, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Pre-nerfage, a MM had to run multiple minion/self heals, run around to deliver those heals, manage energy in a HIGHLY efficient manner, and pull off long series of spell chains perfectly.

Post-nerfage: spam BotM.

So we went from a situation where it actually took skill to raise and maintain a large army, to one where you can just stand flat-footed and keep hitting BotM until everything dies (or you do)

Everyone's trying to ignore the elephant in the living room because nothing can be done about it. We all know Anet isn't going to roll back the changes, I can accept that, but I'll never like it.

What they did was panic and slap a band-aid on the problem in the least elegant manner possible. Instead of allowing the other 12v12 players to adapt, they slapped a cap on us AND obliterated Verata's Sacrifice, but then turned around and boosted Blood of the Master to INSANE levels.

Seriously, this looks very much like a decision made in haste when patience should have ruled. They are normally very good at rebalancing skills/classes but in this case....

Where was their patience in letting the community even attempt to develop counter responses to minion masters? Remember, most players had only played WITH minion masters up to that point. So we were a new beast on the PvP field, bringing an entirely new dimension to the game.

We were the Turtles. We'd hurt bad if you'd rambo us, but we could be beaten still.

They should have let it alone for at least a month to see what the community's response was and only then taken a look at any changes that needed to be implemented (on either side)

xenoranger · Jun 01, 2006, 07:08 PM // 19:08

Have you considered what the adjustement did?

THink about it.

1 MM with loads of VHorrors would be invincible. Just keep spamming VSacrifice and let the VHorrors zerg and heal you. Yes, it took skill to keep them alive before, but now it takes more skill to manage them while considering the next move. Also, notice what happenned to parties when those minions died? I think it's a far cry better to deal withonly 10 masterless than 50 (like some had before).

People always say "well, you could limit the number of VHorrors". True, but then you'd also be making them pointless. Consider what the adjustment did. Stop looking at just the minion cap of 10 and look at the adjustment as a whole.

It leveled the playing field
MM's can't super Zerg now and have serious repreccussions for mismanaging minions
Buffed Blood of the Master
All Allied Minions are healed. YOu can even heal another necro's minions easily
Super Minion (Golem)
Nuff Said
No Invinci-Minion Master
Vhorrors are nice, but if they were to make it so you could have unlimited, the incessant damage dealing capabilities would make the master impossible to take down.
Cost Effective "Minions"
Animate Minions dropped to 15 instead of 25 for cost. You get 2 at roughly half the level of a single horror. There are many applications for Animate Minions
Minion Bar
Now you know how many you're managing. It's nice because before, Minions would get all mixed up and it'd be difficult to tell whose is whose.
Dual MM is possible and productive
You can have more than 1 MM in a group without having to worry about corpse control.
MM = Useful in PvP
Before, it was near impossible to be an MM in PvP matches. Now, it's possible.

Other Questionable CHanges include:

Verata's Sacrifice
Improved and Reduced at the same time. It does recharge instantly with 3 or less (which is nice), but the 10 sec max duration and the 60 sec recharge time are nerfs (hands down).

I was an opponent of the adjustement, but again, to continue calling it a nerf means you shouldn't be playing an MM. Try another form of necro if you can't get the new MM to work.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

"If you can't get the new system to work, then you're a wannabe. Once you have the new system down, you're a Minion Master."

At this point, it's not going to be changed, so either adapt or choose another build, but complaining about it is pointless.

Ensign · Jun 01, 2006, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undead Preacher

my question is this.... besides the Flesh Golem are Bone Fiends still the minions of choice or are the new vampric horrors better...

Honestly I like bone fiends better than the flesh golem - they deal more damage, after all. Flesh golem is nice because you can keep bringing him back, and if you can get aggro on him instead of the fiends it's pretty good. If you're playing on a team with a real tank though I don't think he's worth it. If you're not getting milage out of his health and armor he's just worse than a fiend. I do like him as a startup minion. Bet, hell, if there was a good minion master skill to put in that slot I'd do it.

The only reason I'd use a non-Fiend skill is because Fiend is recharging, or too expensive. Vampiric Horror fails on the energy count, though the recharge part really doesn't matter. I'd just take Bone Horror, it's cheap and your melee guys are just chaff anyway.

Peace,
-CxE

Manic Smile · Jun 02, 2006, 05:21 AM // 05:21

With VS gone and the annoyance of having to use BotM over and over to transport minnions I like FG solely for the transportation factor and, like you said, minnion army start up. You let him die and just recast and then keep him healed while he starts a new army for you and if he dies you recast.

Manic Smile · Jun 02, 2006, 05:46 AM // 05:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by xenoranger

Have you considered what the adjustement did?

THink about it.

1 MM with loads of VHorrors would be invincible. Just keep spamming VSacrifice and let the VHorrors zerg and heal you. Yes, it took skill to keep them alive before, but now it takes more skill to manage them while considering the next move. Also, notice what happenned to parties when those minions died? I think it's a far cry better to deal withonly 10 masterless than 50 (like some had before). .

Horrors are actually the weaker choice as they tend to clump = gg for your army in many cases. At least fiends tend to spread out some so only half are slaughtered when some AoE is cast. Before you had no energy for wasted self healing and you had to be close to heal minnions during battle. Now you don't...I spam BotM and HA constantly without any problem. I can run around my minnions and not have to plan how I will heal them if the attacker decides to gank me...or hell I can just stand a whole screen or so away. There is no skill left, just rinse and repeat... And 50 masterless minnions was a good thing, it let you know who to stop partying with...besides I liked rage quitting with a full army on rude PUGs. My point is it made having a MM a double edged weapon, soemthing more interesting then the MM is now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xenoranger

People always say "well, you could limit the number of VHorrors". True, but then you'd also be making them pointless. Consider what the adjustment did. Stop looking at just the minion cap of 10 and look at the adjustment as a whole.

Broken VS
Overpowered BotM
Minnion Cap
Loss of Skill
Two HA skills
yea...like Carinae said...hasetful move on A.nets part

Quote:

Originally Posted by xenoranger

[list][*]It leveled the playing field
MM's can't super Zerg now and have serious repreccussions for mismanaging minions

This isn't new...you said it yourself 50 masterless minnions...and a MM would not have been immortal in ABs...PvE maybe but come on we still have 55s why not nerf that if that was A.nets reasoning.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xenoranger

[*]Buffed Blood of the Master
All Allied Minions are healed. YOu can even heal another necro's minions easily

mixed feelings here so I'll just leave it alone

Quote:

Originally Posted by xenoranger

[*]Super Minion (Golem)
Nuff Said

One Golem
Elite
Can't Recast before death and keep body
lower dps then fiends
has nothing to do with what we are talking about(VS and minnion cap) even if it is 'part of the whole adjustment'

Quote:

Originally Posted by xenoranger

[*]No Invinci-Minion Master
Vhorrors are nice, but if they were to make it so you could have unlimited, the incessant damage dealing capabilities would make the master impossible to take down.

Even if I could have 50 VHorros I wouldn't waste my time, I never needed them. They really are not worth the mana cast.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xenoranger

[*]Cost Effective "Minions"
Animate Minions dropped to 15 instead of 25 for cost. You get 2 at roughly half the level of a single horror. There are many applications for Animate Minions.

Nice enough I agree but who used that spell in a non bomber type MM build so really I could care less until A.net gives us a Minnion party window.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xenoranger

[*]Minion Bar
Now you know how many you're managing. It's nice because before, Minions would get all mixed up and it'd be difficult to tell whose is whose.

pointless/useless I mean if the can do this just give us a damn minnion window

Quote:

Originally Posted by xenoranger

[*]Dual MM is possible and productive
You can have more than 1 MM in a group without having to worry about corpse control.

You always could...the only differnce is peoples perception. I mean really two teams of 25(sharing 50corpses) is still better then two teams of 10(sharing 50 corpses)

Quote:

Originally Posted by xenoranger

[*]MM = Useful in PvP
Before, it was near impossible to be an MM in PvP matches. Now, it's possible.

where does an MM work now that it didn't before?

Quote:

Originally Posted by xenoranger

Other Questionable CHanges include:[*]Verata's Sacrifice
Improved and Reduced at the same time. It does recharge instantly with 3 or less (which is nice), but the 10 sec max duration and the 60 sec recharge time are nerfs (hands down).

VS = Utterly USELESS

Quote:

Originally Posted by xenoranger

I was an opponent of the adjustement, but again, to continue calling it a nerf means you shouldn't be playing an MM. Try another form of necro if you can't get the new MM to work.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

"If you can't get the new system to work, then you're a wannabe. Once you have the new system down, you're a Minion Master."

At this point, it's not going to be changed, so either adapt or choose another build, but complaining about it is pointless.

right...

how very egotistical of you

besides we are able to play MM fine...I henched my whole way thought Cantha cept the last battle. That is entirely irellevent to our point that this was a stupid nerf