Curse

Eaimirth Etaivella · Jun 25, 2006, 06:50 AM // 06:50

Can we get a mod to either move arredondo's thread and join it with this one or lock this? Not interested in watching a cockfight.

Vermilion Okeanos · Jun 25, 2006, 10:25 AM // 10:25

Well, actually what I wrote meant exactly what it meant. The post arredondo made was done while I was still playing @_@ Which in fact, I was really playing while you were on the forum. It was a weird coincidence.

I guess there is many ways of interpretation to that message. (If I were to say that arredondo copied my build while I was playing, I would say it exactly that)

Also... way to go to the guy who stick his nose in everything. You are way too late, so please behave more like a grown person.

Now... something about IW.

uhh.... you can charge andrenline to use sun and moon slash by using another range weapon for IW.... @_@ Don't know what else to say.

Blkout · Jun 26, 2006, 09:37 AM // 09:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vermilion Okeanos

Well, actually what I wrote meant exactly what it meant. The post arredondo made was done while I was still playing @_@ Which in fact, I was really playing while you were on the forum. It was a weird coincidence.

I guess there is many ways of interpretation to that message. (If I were to say that arredondo copied my build while I was playing, I would say it exactly that)

Also... way to go to the guy who stick his nose in everything. You are way too late, so please behave more like a grown person.

Now... something about IW.

uhh.... you can charge andrenline to use sun and moon slash by using another range weapon for IW.... @_@ Don't know what else to say.

Arredondo stuck his nose in it because you accused him of stealing and tweaking your build. I set him straight though, no worries.

Vermilion Okeanos · Jun 26, 2006, 11:21 AM // 11:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blkout

Arredondo stuck his nose in it because you accused him of stealing and tweaking your build. I set him straight though, no worries.

Hmm... no, he wasn't the one who stuck his nose in.

Avarre · Jun 26, 2006, 11:43 AM // 11:43

Children, stop arguing about a gimmick build.

What I don't like about this is the energy usage, and that people can see quite clearly who's going to be taking hits. That and the lack of anti-kiter ability.

arredondo · Jun 26, 2006, 03:01 PM // 15:01

^^^ Read it a little more closely.... Dancing Daggers->Mantis Touch is a permanent lock-down snare if the enemy can't remove the Cripple. Just as his old Cripple wears off, your skills recharge to apply it again if you put enough points into Deadly Arts.

Eaimirth Etaivella · Jun 26, 2006, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Children, stop arguing about a gimmick build.

Yea I tried that...its worse than you and me arguing. We at least use data or facts, this is just sheer name calling.

Avarre · Jun 26, 2006, 03:16 PM // 15:16

Noted, it takes 10 Deadly to keep a constant maintain up, but take into account that if the enemy has a way to heal, you don't have any speed stances to catch up (although you could put points to shadow and use refuge + dark escape, which would be nice since you aren't hitting, would also give you more survivability).

So working on that;

8 Shadow
16 Illu
10 Deadly

IW
Dancing daggers
Mantis Touch
Shadow Refuge
Dark Escape
Iron Palm (kd when working with the cripple of touch, why not add!)
Exhausting assault (8 second recharge dual attack, and if IW is down you have yourself an interrupt)
Res sig

Alternatively, use critical strike (6s dual attack), however I like the possibility of interrupt even if IW is down. Refuge can work as a minor cover enchant (since you're running this in RA, where enchant removal is not only uncommon but not that well used).

arredondo · Jun 26, 2006, 06:19 PM // 18:19

See, you're showing how nice it is to be able to make an IW build without committing to an IAS stance. A lot of us who use IW with Assassin skills also bring Dark Escape because of the defense and speed buff (it doesn't dispell with IW attacks of course).

There's a big problem with your build though; you absolutely need to have a lot of points in Dagger Mastery or you will almost never get any double strikes... the main reason to consider As/Me (or Me/As) to begin with.

Eaimirth Etaivella · Jun 26, 2006, 09:12 PM // 21:12

A build is a build; nothing more nothing less. Let me throw some of my completely situational math around though; seems to be what I am best at anyway.
For all math that follows, we will assume that all swords, and daggers have the same attack speed. Revelently small changes in different types of swords and the small difference in attack speed between swords and daggers will be pronounced void. In addition for these calculations we will assume 1 attack per 1 second, although this is far from the truth it will make these calculations easier for me to do and for you to understand. All that choose to disagree with this may opt to do the math themselves, but I doubt the difference will have any significant figures changed in terms of percentage of damage. (in each conclusion note that I am using the term "better" to conclude ONLY IW DPS, ignoring all other skills/factors)

With that said, onward.
First set; using only 97 attribute points (enough to raise a single attribute to rank 12)
If we take 1 point out of illusion magic (thus reduction of IW damage from 42/swing to 40) we are attributed 20 attribute points allowing dagger mastery to be increased from 0 to 5 (with a 5 point remainder)

illusion 15 dagger 5
At rank 5, there is a 10% chance for a double attack, or an additional 40 damage every 10 swings. With this being said 40/10=4 so average damage per second increases from 42 to 44 with the change in status point attributation (<-is that even a word?)
restatement
Reduction to 40/swing
increase of double attack to 10%
average dps 44.00
conclusion: better than full illusion

illusion 14 dagger 7
Reduction to 38/swing
increase of double attack to 14%
average dps 43.32
conclusion: better than full illusion

illusion 13 dagger 9
Reduction to 36/swing
increase of double attack to 18%
average dps 42.48
conclusion: better than full illusion

*further calculations not needed; increase of points needed to raise dagger mastery level significantly lowers dps*
Based on these calculations and considering IW damage alone, moving 20 attribute points out of illusion and adding them to dagger mastery would not be a bad idea. A downward spiral does take place however as move points are shifted from illusion to dagger mastery but with 7 and 9 points in skill the mesmer is given the chance to equip (or keep equiped) a standard pair of req 7 or req 9 daggers which would lower avg dps but increase versitality.

Now for a comparison of 12 dagger mastery + 16 illusion to a IAS buff.
24% chance for double attack(42x1.24) yields 52.08dps
33% ias (42/.67) yields 62.69 dps

IAS wins this one; however it will take more energy to maintain this IAS than the "no energy needed to maintain" dagger mastery so that should be considered. Also with 12 in skill; the mesmer does not suffer nearly as much if IW is disenchanted.

Conclusion; some dagger mastery is good, alot is not so good. 5 or 7 is enough, only merit for 7 is if you have a very nice pair of spiffy daggers that just totally rock your world with a requirement of 7...I still think Me/R is the best IW, followed very very closely by Me/W then by Me/A due to the constant damage that each presents. Me/R has pets, Me/W has flurry and is able to use more mesmer skills due lack of attribute on flurry, and Me/A presents the most versital of the me/x but...damage is not as great as the other two and it lacks the shutdown potential of me/w.

However the conclusion is completely biased with my input, you can draw your own with the math above.

arredondo · Jun 26, 2006, 10:52 PM // 22:52

I'll look closer at the figures later but my early response is that you can't just look at theory numbers for damage. I've said it many times so far, you also have to factor in how often you will be able to hit a target that wants to get away from you.

With Me/A, you have a Stance slot free which is tremendous... you can add a number of the Assassin's speed buffs as a result. You also have a much easier time snaring the enemy continuously using skills like Crippling Dagger or DD->MT. Trust me on this as I've used all three classes with IW in many builds, not just two classes. Staying close to the enemy is extremely important with IW and I find that the Me/As does it better than the other two variants.

Another benefit of Me/As over the others is that with Me/As you can do some actual physical melee damage when if your IW is dispelled (which can happen even with enchant protection). Dagger Mastery must be supported (no less than L9 to use the best weapons) so you can take advantage of this to hurt the enemy while you wait for IW to recharge. How many Me/Was honestly add significant Sword Mastery points?

So I am factoring in more than just raw damage data that is calculated off the field. We must look at the poterntial total package to make the best evaluations. Me/Wa has the Tactics line for added defense (i.e. Deadly Riposte, Heal Sig) and Me/Ra has access to Pet attacks and Troll. They all have pros and cons they make it difficult to choose a clear "best" version IMHO.

Eaimirth Etaivella · Jun 27, 2006, 03:24 AM // 03:24

Woa woa woa I kept the damage theory in damage alone tyvm ^_~:;
However if you wish to bring up the subject of slowing down the target; Me/W has imagined burden (as all the other Me/) and can slow target this way. By their nature hexes are much more difficult to remove than conditions.
If we are going to take over "dispelled" IW debates in all scenarios you must give credit to the /R pet attacks and /W attributation to mesmer skills. Due to the non-attributeness of flurry /W tends to use more of the mesmer talents, imagined burden, conjure phantasm, IoR, etc. /R tends to be much more agressive and strike quickly due to their pet (that is active regardless of IW status); because of this additional dps they often kill the foe in under 7 seconds...sometimes 6. I would not call them equal (I personally favor /R because it is equally useful with IW and without, dps is standard and significant in both cases but thats my bias anyway) but I would not call /A they only IW to have this versitality.
Max Daggers have been found with max mods that have a requirement of 7; they are equal in every way to req 9 daggers but are superier in that they need less points dagger mastery to use to their maximum potential-which is significant in terms of this type of build in general.
Me/W has much more than the tactics line-its greatest strength is the non-attributeness of its IAS.
Me/R greatest strength is the free non-conditional dps of pet attacks and powerful interrupt (disrupting lunge) that they can use without stopping an attack (which conveniently works with tiger's fury I might add). Trolls urgent is horrid and irrelevant.
IW lasts for 30+.20x30 seconds (out of 40), so this time frame you suggest is rather small. The pet will out damage the Me/A in this time frame, possibly a wand would out damage the Me/A in this time frame-this however depends on the amount of dagger mastery, and the skills being used. Keep in mind that both the pet and the wand are free.

arredondo · Jun 27, 2006, 05:19 AM // 05:19

We're agreeing to a certain extent as all three have benefits and concerns. However I stand by what I said about Me/As snares (I expanded on this in the IW thread). It is better than the Mesmer snares because they are cheaper and easier to chain for a permanent lock-down (IB's recharge prevents this). Also, melee spam with Daggers is a free damage additive costing no energy, which is what I was pointing out above. A Me/As can cast all those Mesmer Hexes you point out besides basic attacking (and attacks faster than basic Pet attacks). Finally, while you complain about Troll, for health recovery it is better than Ether Feast and Shadow Refuge (I like Heal Sig of all heal options). It ain't perfect but at least it's something.

Eaimirth Etaivella · Jun 27, 2006, 07:58 AM // 07:58

Quote:

Also, melee spam with Daggers is a free damage additive costing no energy, which is what I was pointing out above.

Comparison time!
Dagger damage is 7-17, wand damage is 11-22.
Daggers attack slightly faster than wands
Daggers get double attack
Wands are ranged
Wands deal damage based on requirement and level
Daggers deal damage based on attribute points and requirement

Daggers at 7 in skill (25 armor on target) or 31.25% less damage
-4.83-11.73 damage range, 14% chance for double attack
-average dps=(4.83+11.73)/2x1.14=9.43dps

Daggers with 9 in skill (15 armor on target) or 18.75% less damage
-5.68-13.81 damage range, 18% chance for double attack
-average dps=(5.68+13.81)/2x1.18=11.5dps

Wand damage with requirement met
-11-22 damage range
-average dps=(11+22)/2=16.5

Even with dagger's slightly faster attack speed, the wand wins hands down in terms of dps without skills backing it up. Thus you need to use skills in order for the dagger damage to outclass the wand damage( I mean heck we could throw in a vamparic weapon and it would still be beaten by the wand...), hence my post.

Point; while daggers may attack faster than pet, they will by no means out damage the wand, let alone the pet without aid.

For Me/R I would stick to illusionary weakness and keep it at that; trolls is slow, clunky, and you cannot spare the points or the skillslots with me/r to begin with.

Valkyries · Jun 27, 2006, 09:36 AM // 09:36

Maybe Im missing something??

Why are you comparing weapons damages when talking about IW?

You realize the only thing that matters is attack speed, you could wield an axe or a starters bo staff and it'll do the same damage..

Again, maybe I missed the point. Was lots of jibberish being posted so I was forced to skim a little more than I normally do...

Themis · Jun 27, 2006, 09:59 AM // 09:59

Imo, for an Asn primary, IW is useless (unless blinded ?) and skill points needed along with elite slot, can be better used within the Asn attributes and skills.

For a Me primary, i suppose that Me skills are better than the Asn ones to accompany IW.

There're no arguments in this thread that prove my statements are wrong. Or, perhaps (like Valkyries says), i've missed something ?

TheMadKingGeorge · Jun 27, 2006, 10:09 AM // 10:09

beat a warrior using illusionary weaponry epidemic distortion clumsiness and flurry he went down so fast the moron attacked through frnezy and took 194 dmg vs clummsyness he kept coming back for more and i killed hi magain and again

Avarre · Jun 27, 2006, 12:18 PM // 12:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

See, you're showing how nice it is to be able to make an IW build without committing to an IAS stance. A lot of us who use IW with Assassin skills also bring Dark Escape because of the defense and speed buff (it doesn't dispell with IW attacks of course).

This is because IW's damage is not very impressive. However cripple and thence knockdown can make up for it, as I mentioned. The additional self-defence is also a big help, effectively countering degen (RA common) and damage spikes (big threat to mesmer).

Quote:

There's a big problem with your build though; you absolutely need to have a lot of points in Dagger Mastery or you will almost never get any double strikes... the main reason to consider As/Me (or Me/As) to begin with.

You could probably shift stats around as Eaimirth showed, that's not really what I was aiming at. It's the skills that I like (doesn't mean the build is good, just means it has style), dual striking, kd, cripple, interrupt if no IW (even at 9 dagger nobody cares about your damage tbh, but exh and interrupt can help alot), selfheal, defensive and running stance... very balanced char.

Vermilion Okeanos · Jun 27, 2006, 02:43 PM // 14:43

To me, it seems pointless to go Me/A at all if you are not going to take those dual attack skills. Loading one self with a bunch of defensive skills are only making you into another wammo.

Just go Me/W if you are worrying about dying.

Then again, my post seem kind of stupid as.... why IW to begin with >< I hate how IW are such a joke yet fun. Somehow this skill make people like us trying to make it better, when we know it sux.

Avarre · Jun 27, 2006, 03:00 PM // 15:00

IW is only potentially viable in RA, where a selfheal and protecting skills are effective.