Curse

Manda Panda · Jan 20, 2006, 10:30 PM // 22:30

I was standing in tombs trying to find a group as my ranger, but having no luck. No one was interested in the barrage/interrupters (probably a dozen standing around), and no one was forming trapper groups either. I started wondering if a team of several barragers would be feasible.

So I started thinking about barrage and how to boost the damage from it. Spirits are one option, but they take some time to set up, don't give you much of a boost, and help the mobs as well.

Enchantments are another option. Here you've got Judge's insight, which really only adds damage through armor penetration and has to be cast by each person individually, plus has to be recast every 12-14 seconds or so. Then there's conjure elements, but you need to find enough people with both elementalist secondaries and elemental bowstrings, and if it gets removed there's a long recharge time.

Then I saw a few people asking if anyone had tried ranger spike in there, and that's when I thought an order necro would be perfect. The group I have in mind would consist of 4 rangers with barrage + interrupts, 1 order necro, and either a tank and 2 monks or just 3 monks. (I made it to the third area last night in a tankless group, albeit with lots of dp, but that was a two monk group.)

So tell me what you think; does it have potential? Can I make it better? Is there something I didn't think of that makes it completely suck?

Sab · Jan 21, 2006, 08:40 AM // 08:40

I think I might've played with you last night.

Anyway, the biggest problem we had in our ranger spike group was that the tank couldn't hold aggro, which meant that all the Grasps went straight for the casters and the rangers in the back, spamming Fear Me. Barrage doesn't work with the targets spread out, so that clearly slowed things down. Thankfully the rangers were equipped with Throw Dirt, which was more or less enough of a delay to take them down one by one.

To be honest, I'm not sure how effective the order necro actually was. On all three runs we had one, so I couldn't find out if he was necessary. Having additional damage certainly helped, of course, but I think the rangers were doing enough damage already.

Having three monks was perhaps overkill (two healers, one bonder). If the tank could hold aggro properly I think we would've made it through with two (one healer, one bonder).

The ranger spike teams were the best groups I've been in so far, as we completed UW just as quickly and effectively as any balanced group. A well organised group, I think, would be able to make it through with three rangers, one healer, one bonder, and a tank. I've yet to try this out, but I'll be sure to post the results when I do.

mattjones527 · Jan 21, 2006, 05:31 PM // 17:31

I was in a group that tried something similar to a ranger spike, didnt seem to work to efficiently. Our problem was we had someone over aggroing . So it may infact be a worth while build.

The most effective build ive seen is 5 trapper 2 monk 1 ele team. it kills slow but is fairly safe. Normally with this build I have one monk bring blood rit, so the trappers can keep on traping which helps speed up the process.

One build I think should be more popular in PVE is a standard pvp Minion Factory. Think about whith no pressure of the other team you can make an army as big as you want, and easily plow through the enemies. Ive tried this on the new tombs, it works but is very hard vs any aoe dmg like meteor shower.

VGJustice · Jan 21, 2006, 06:31 PM // 18:31

I tried the MM idea, and it failed bad for me. There's this mesmer monster that uses some skill (don't know the name) that blasts an AoE and does some kinda nasty damage. Took out my Trap team more than a few times.

Speaking of Trapping teams, they *do* work, but it's hard. Had a flubbed group, and we ended up with 4 trappers and a healer. Made it a good ways into the second area, but we got stomped pretty bad there. Good team, great healer. We managed to kill 2 of the Chaos Wurms.

I also used my Barrage build with Judge's for my first few trips through. I made it all the way with that build, and a great team. Poor War couldn't hold aggro for one reason or another, I was falling asleep at the keyboard, and one of our 3 monks had to leave for school, but we managed to beat it. It was just awesome, even though I didn't get a green.

The main thing you *have* to remember is that Rangers can not dodge or block the Grasps and several other monsters. That "Fingers of Chaos" attack allows them to bypass anything a Ranger has, except Blindness. I highly recomend that every Ranger bruing Dust Trap. That saved me so many times....

A note on Fingers of Chaos, IIRC it gives random stat ailments to Wars, it's a garanteed hit to Rangers, it strips enchants from Monks, it removes hexes if they're attacking a Necro, and it continually interupts Ele's. I can't remember what it does to the poor Mesmers, but after all that, it can't be anything good. It would be wise to take that into account when making a build for this area.

Antheus · Jan 21, 2006, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by VGJustice

A note on Fingers of Chaos, IIRC it gives random stat ailments to Wars, it's a garanteed hit to Rangers, it strips enchants from Monks, it removes hexes if they're attacking a Necro, and it continually interupts Ele's. I can't remember what it does to the poor Mesmers, but after all that, it can't be anything good. It would be wise to take that into account when making a build for this area.

I came to use ward against melee a lot. Cannot be stripped, and apears to help a lot against grasps. I do not think it helps against FoC but dropping ward did improve survivability of the team. I used it only as an emergency, when grasps escaped agro. They still drain energy, but at least their damage dealt is reduced.

The only problem is, that with typical E/Me nuker, there are not enough points to distribute between earth and mesmer skills for both of them to be effective.

A pure fire/earth E however, can keep ward up constantly (switching between galigords/rago's staff), but you will hurt more from interrupts (Mantra of resolve.

Sunsu Pyro · Jan 21, 2006, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Check out my topic....

Amused Observer · Jan 22, 2006, 06:00 AM // 06:00

Considering how many spellcasters are in the Tombs UW, an interrupter is definitely an asset to a grp, especially against meteor casting Terrorwebs.

Wards are nice, but in order to place them in the correct spots (i.e. where the mobs are at), you would have to run a W/E, rather than an ele primary.

I found Empathy to be especially useful against grasps.

VGJustice · Jan 22, 2006, 09:04 AM // 09:04

As long as the grasp doesn't attack a Necro, then Empathy should do fine.

Here's a build idea for a Ranger, one that would use interupts and not use defensive stances:

Punishing Shot {E}
Savage Shot
Distracting Shot
Read the Wind
Throw Dirt
Barbed Trap
Judge's Insight
Res of choice

This should give enough flexability to allow the ranger to interupt or damage as needed. Barbed causes Criple, so that should help slow down the mobs a little (Dust would be nice, but it would probably cost too much with the interupts).

Sab · Jan 22, 2006, 10:58 AM // 10:58

That's basically the build we ran in ranger spike:

Barrage (Elite)
Distracting Shot
Savage Shot
Dual Shot
Concussion Shot/Judge's Insight (if /Mo)
Read The Wind
Throw Dirt
Res of some sort

Having three rangers packed with interrupts proved very useful when multiple Dryders/Wurms came up - one ranger can interrupt a caster while the other two nailed the other.

Although I thought Choking Gas would be very useful considering that the casters tend to bunch up, the skill's short duration and long recharge time meant you'd also need to bring Practiced Stance with you for it to be of any use. Unfortunately Practiced Stance is an elite, so that kicks Barrage or any other elite off the skillbar. I suppose if you were a dedicated interrupter in a balanced group, Practiced Stance + Choking Gas would be useful, but for ranger spike, it's a waste of an preperation & elite.

Traps aren't all that effective if you're not in a dedicated trapping team (even then it's still hella slow). Throw Dirt is usually enough to disable Grasps for the team to take them out, if they make for the casters. If not, then have the leader call out targets and spike them to death. Though Barbed Trap can help, I'd suggest another attack skill instead of it.

VGJustice · Jan 22, 2006, 10:58 PM // 22:58

Makes sense to me. Now, on to the Wars. These poor guys have an issue of getting condition spammed, to let's work with that. I'd bring along either Victory is Mine! or, if they're a W/R, Melandru's Resiliance. Both should prove useful to the Wars here.

Basic build idea:

(Tiger Axe type

Penetrating Blow
Executioner's Strike
Cyclone Axe
Tiger's Fury
ViM/Melandru's Resiliance
Apply Poison
Dryder's Defense
Res Sig

IMO, high damage would be more appropriate here instead of the normal Tanking qualities. Granted, the loss of both Eviscerate and Cleave will reduce the damage potential greatly, but the survivability that ViM or Melandru's would offer should be able to off-set that a bit.

Brian Fuller · Jan 23, 2006, 02:44 AM // 02:44

Is Read the Wind all that helpful, since barrage gets rid of all preparations it seems like it would be wasted, besides most rangers can spam barrage, especially with a zealous bow string.

Why not drop RtW and pick up Troll Unguent for some self heal.

ak347 · Jan 23, 2006, 03:13 AM // 03:13

After a decent run of seven people, I've come up with a fairly decent, balanced team build:

1 warrior aggro'er - stance tank packing condition defences (the idea of melandrus resilience is good). When he aggroes, the hardest thing is that he must maintain aggro for a few seconds BY HIMSELF. The graspers are very easily distracted by casters.

1 fast cast res'ing mesmer packing interrupts/aoe dmg/bonding potential.

2 healer monks

2 necro - 1 running bip and wells, 1 running curses

2 eles - running meteor shower, meteor, fball, maybe some aoe magic like deep freeze

The first 4 characters are must haves, the last 4 can be swapped a bit. THere was no bip in my party and we ran fine, nor any wells. The curse necro did a great job, but Fingers of Chaos was a pain in the ass. The war had lots of problems with aggro, though it wasnt his fault. Suffice to say that we used many candy canes.
3 special observations: From the ele point of view, I never saw the melee monsters running from the meteor shower, nor the dryders. THis is especially important in the second level when you have the dryders sitting up on the hills.
Point #2, and this is absolutely hilarious, but there is a glitch with the chaos wurms. I found it out initially because the bastards had surprised us when the warrior went in to aggro one of those "rooms". Suffice to say we ran away promptly, but of course we got chased by the wurms. When only the fc mesmer and me (a monk) were left, I stopped so that the mesmer would have a chance to get away. The wurm popped up, but as I was getting up, it just stood there, swaying in the air. It didn't attack me (as it did some other times when i tried to fight it). So, my advice is to run, scatter, and whoever has the thing on its tail just stop and dont attack. It happend twice in level 2. One time both the wurms overlapped and just sat there while the fc mesmer res'd the team.
Point #3: the nasty mesmer spell that can annihalate a team in seconds is energy surge (the aoe e-denial spell, domination elite), and they spike it very well. So, my advice is simply to spread out the casters or hope the aggro warrior triggers them all (unlikely). Spreading out makes it easier to deal with the spikes.
Having two warriors isn't too bad either. Two axe warriors in one of my runs made fairly short work of the graspers and casters and the aggro seemed to work a little better.

O, and my build for monking (which worked very well considering edenial and finger of chaos enchant stripping):
OoB, orison, heal touch, dwaynas, heal other, restore life (Other monk ran rebirth, as well as fc mes), holy veil, and contemplation of purity. Even with heavy 5e spell spamming and alot of use of the expensive heal other, I never went below 20e despite e-denial (Unless i died and was rebirthed :P). I'm sure you can twiddle with the attribute point distribution.

BBoy_Manchild · Jan 23, 2006, 11:29 AM // 11:29

MF wouldnt work simply because of the spider casting fireball and meteor shower, maybe unless you have like 3-4 monks spamming heal party
but a single MM can make new UW much easier with added protection and damage, plus switch in minions every so often with death nova cast on them asap and let them die in the middle of an aggro for some nice damage and aoe poison + a rotting flesh

Sab · Jan 23, 2006, 11:38 AM // 11:38

Brian Fuller: Good point. The thing is, though, after several runs with a PUG, I'm actually contemplating on dropping Barrage. Having several grasps in proximity to each other is simply a rare occurance, and I'll probably bring Quickshot or Punishing Shot instead of that to increase my spike damage.

In theory, Troll Unguent shouldn't be needed as you'll be in the back and hopefully not taking too many hits (not to mention the healers will probably patch you up before Troll has finished casting). I brought it once and completed UW without ever using it thanks to the quick healers.

On another note, should the warrior(s) pack attack skills? Considering that they'll be blinded often, thanks to Fingers of Chaos, and that there will be other damage dealers in the team, why not just go as a pure tank?

BBoy_Manchild · Jan 23, 2006, 11:43 AM // 11:43

if its a wammo ask them to bring mend condition or purge condition to fix themselves if they want to attack the enemy themselves, i personally rock a W/N and plague touch the blind back on the mob, leaves me open to attacking and stops them from hurting your teammates, a win win

xcutioner · Jan 23, 2006, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Guys, dont run enchantments.
I've had to tell almost every monk that grouped with me to NOT bring healing breeze. Even after I told them not to bring it they did anyways. The scenario almost always happens like this...

somebody: Casting enchantment on x.
Monster: I'm shattering the idiot!
x: Ahhhh -125 dmg's O noes!
monk: I'm using healing breeze on x!
Monster: This is too easy...
x: Ahhhh I got healz for +8hp then -125hp dmg's O noes
monk: I'm using healing breeze on x.
Monster:...

Healing breeze, Healing seed, reversal, protective spirit, judges insight, will all get you fried. Hell these guys are so uber on the shatters that they can shatter my holy veil before I can double click to remove it immediately after the cast.

Due to fingers of chaos the safest class combo is Me/x and x/Me, since foc does nothing to mesmers.

Since running enchantments is bad, I'd consider dropping barrage for a more directed killing skill. posion arrow/kindle is nice for stacking degens while doing decent dmg. A QS/kindle(apply poison) build is probably better on direct brute dmg from a distance, mantra of resolve to prevent interrrupts, dust trap and barbed trap to lay at your feet and help protect monks, and some interrupts to keep the dryders and chaos worms under control.

MrBugs · Jan 23, 2006, 06:24 PM // 18:24

I had tried this run several times only to get my backside kicked each time, so I switched to my tank and got in with a group. The leader was spamming he had done it several times and had a strategy that worked. We ended up with 2W, 2Mo, 1R, 1E, 1N. He wanted the W to have Glads and whatever else, the Necromancer was a MM. The Monks had to have heal party.
How it worked and it did work, went like this.
The Warriors formed a wall and the ranger agroed and pulled, this worked great on 80% of the place because of the stair wells act as a choke point where the W wall can really work. The Ele had meteor for sure and ward against melee I think. The monks were both great and only healed no bonding or enchantments. On the areas where the wall could not be implemented we made sure the W worked together to kill the mob but we always let the Ranger agro, sometime she was the edge of my little map but always seemed to pull only one mob to our W wall. I only died once and the other tank only died once, the ranger didn’t die iirc. It took 2+ hours and it went fast but sorely I did not get a green at the end…
I'm not sure a purely Ranger can pull it off, the W wall worked great!

VGJustice · Jan 24, 2006, 05:03 AM // 05:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Fuller

Is Read the Wind all that helpful, since barrage gets rid of all preparations it seems like it would be wasted, besides most rangers can spam barrage, especially with a zealous bow string.

Why not drop RtW and pick up Troll Unguent for some self heal.

This should really be up to the individual Ranger. Granted, spamming Barrage deals nice damage, even to a single target, but you can get some very nice spike damage using RtW and Punishing Shot. So, basicly, Barrager with Judge's for mobs, RtW + Punishing for single targets and interupt builds. Both work, but both do not work for everyone. Boils down to using what you're more comfortable with.

Jack Lost · Jan 26, 2006, 12:29 AM // 00:29

heres the group layout i had last night and it was a barrage team went all the way to the last chamber but our warrior and one monk left

r/mo
r/mo
r/mes
n/mes
w/mes
ele/mes
mo/n
mo/mes

it was pretty hard at times but it got better as our warrior learned how to body block. the necro was going orders and spiteful from what i could tell

bring favorable winds ftw

VGJustice · Jan 29, 2006, 05:49 AM // 05:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Lost

bring favorable winds ftw

That's right, most of the mobs in there are either casters or melee.