Curse

The Real Roy Keane · Feb 16, 2006, 09:28 AM // 09:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

Instead of whining against nerfing, just watch in observer mode best team's GvGs.
And do some skill comparison, please. This game is meant to be balanced so player's skill is all that matters.
Playing a hammer warrior sometimes, I give you a comparison.

Backbreaker
Elite
10 A.D=you must wait a long time to be able to use it.
Melee range.
4 sec KD.
Counters possible: evade stances, blocking enchants, blindness, cripple, hexes, adrenalin loss.

Gale
Non-Elite
5 Energy + exhaustion ( easily counterable by focus swap)
Ranged
3 sec KD
Counters possible: Spell breaker, fast interrupts.

Please explain why a warrior should play hammer and choose hammer elites.

Because a Gale-Dev Hammer(don't use Backbreaker,godammit)-Crushing Blow-Heavy Blow-Gale combo id both a decent spike and a ten second shotdown. While Hammer wars are certainly beater by axers in the damage department, i believ gale merely bolsters their repetoire,rather than making them redundant.

Renegade ++RIP++ · Feb 16, 2006, 11:13 AM // 11:13

the point is however that an elite skill gets outdone by an air skill which ain't elite.

Although i might be pondering about what would happen if gale would have been an elite skill.

Although, maybe the best solution would be to make some small adjustments to gale and reassess backbreaker.

Cyan The Archer · Feb 16, 2006, 02:59 PM // 14:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knight of Eternal Darknes

doesn't need to be nerfed, it's fine as is people didn't know who used it before observe mode, so you shouldn't be complaining about it when people steal other peoples ideas..

Even if no one knew the top guilds were using it, it still needed to be nerfed.

sun is in us · Feb 16, 2006, 04:11 PM // 16:11

I guess Gale exists in Isolation. No other skills in the game.....so Gale is unstoppable.

I posted a M/E build that shuts down Gale Warriors and Cripple Shot rangers...in one char.

Two nights ago I saw "my" build (or very similar) being used in a GVG battle. The Gale part of the Gale Warrior was gone from their skill bar for upwards of 30 seconds at a time. It was hilarious.

So I really don't understand you people. You cry for nerfs on a skill instead of bringing a counter for it (one of several counters). You whine and moan for the Gods to help you...instead of just helping yourselves. It really is a bit pathetic. And I'm just not going to sugarcoat it for you all anymore.

Grow up....use the skills provided to counter gale warriors....or just play another game. I don't want your Nerf-Herding to ruin a game I like....a game full of skills and counter skills.....If it hurts your brain to counter this skill...then maybe this is not the game for you.

Maybe you should try another that doesn't seem to require as much effort:

http://www.sanriotown.com/onlinegame/index.php

GG.

glountz · Feb 16, 2006, 04:22 PM // 16:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by sun is in us

I guess Gale exists in Isolation. No other skills in the game.....so Gale is unstoppable.

I posted a M/E build that shuts down Gale Warriors and Cripple Shot rangers...in one char.

Two nights ago I saw "my" build (or very similar) being used in a GVG battle. The Gale part of the Gale Warrior was gone from their skill bar for upwards of 30 seconds at a time. It was hilarious.

So I really don't understand you people. You cry for nerfs on a skill instead of bringing a counter for it (one of several counters). You whine and moan for the Gods to help you...instead of just helping yourselves. It really is a bit pathetic. And I'm just not going to sugarcoat it for you all anymore.

Grow up....use the skills provided to counter gale warriors....or just play another game. I don't want your Nerf-Herding to ruin a game I like....a game full of skills and counter skills.....If it hurts your brain to counter this skill...then maybe this is not the game for you.

Maybe you should try another that doesn't seem to require as much effort:

http://www.sanriotown.com/onlinegame/index.php

GG.

I guess you're talking about arcane thievery.
Disabling ONE gale spell is completely useless if you have many gale warriors. The more you have G-warriors, the more gale is effective. Worst, if you don't encounter gale warriors your build is near to useless, as it is merely used to counter specifically this Galewarrior build. It is okay now with all the galeway around here, but should you encounter something else and you will loose. The solution is not to make a specific anti-gale warrior build, it's simply not durable.

sun is in us · Feb 16, 2006, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

I guess you're talking about arcane thievery.
Disabling ONE gale spell is completely useless if you have many gale warriors. The more you have G-warriors, the more gale is effective. Worst, if you don't encounter gale warriors your build is near to useless, as it is merely used to counter specifically this Galewarrior build. It is okay now with all the galeway around here, but should you encounter something else and you will loose. The solution is not to make a specific anti-gale warrior build, it's simply not durable.

Guess all you* want. Have any opinion you want. I will make an anti-any FOTM build whenever I want. And I don't lose with that build. And I don't whine for a Nerf. And I do shut them down. And I am successful with it.

So make up any scenario, discount whatever Build I make that counters it....call it useless if it easier. And it is lose....not "loose." I am just not going to cater to nerf-herders anymore. The more you (the community) calls for a nerf to a skill....the more I will counter you.....just like in the game.

So, I wait with baited breath for the next excuse list about how counter skills sucks and life is unfair and Gale rules the world and we won't have world peace until Gale is nerfed. 'Course I have heard it all before about ________<Insert skill here.......but you are all welcome to tell me again all the horror and terror of the skill you would like nerfed, and how its impossible to counter....how I am ruining my life by bringing in skills that counter it.......blah blah blah.

At least make it a unique excuse list though.......like.....if you have an anti-gale skill counter on your skill bar, it causes you 7 years bad luck or something. Or the next plane you ride in will go down in flames etc because of it........please make the excuses more interesting if you can....

*You as in everybody....but I had to respond to a specific sentence here.....for Glountz's sake....you is not being used in a pejorative sense and I believe in Love and Flowers for everyone in this thread, and you can all come over for milk and cookies whenever you like!

Renegade ++RIP++ · Feb 16, 2006, 05:15 PM // 17:15

Sun, the point still stands. An elite hammerskill gets outdone by a skill practically anyone can use.

glountz · Feb 16, 2006, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by sun is in us

Guess all you want. Have any opinion you want. I will make an anti-any FOTM build whenever I want. And I don't lose with that build. And I don't whine for a Nerf. And I do shut them down. And I am successful with it.

So make up any scenario you want, whine about whatever Build I make that counters it....call it useless if it makes you feel better. And it is lose....not "loose." I am just not going to cater to you nerf-herders anymore. The more you call for a nerf to a skill....the more I will counter you.....just like in the game.

So, I wait with baited breath for your next excuse list about how counter skills sucks and life is unfair and Gale rules the world and we won't have world peace until Gale is nerfed. 'Course I have heard it all before about ________<Insert skill here.......but you are welcome to tell me again all the horror and terror of the skill you would like nerfed, and how its impossible to counter....how I am ruining my life by bringing in skills that counter it.......blah blah blah.

At least make it a unique excuse list though.......like.....if you have an anti-gale skill counter on your skill bar, it causes you 7 years bad luck or something. Or the next plane you ride in will go down in flames etc because of it........please make the excuses more interesting if you can..

This is how flame wars begin.
If you are unable to keep quiet and polite when posting, simply don't post. Thanks.
EDIT:
If you can't understand my point, please try to demonstrate where Renegade's statement above is wrong.
Being able to counter something never meant that it was balanced.

sun is in us · Feb 16, 2006, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

This is how flame wars begin.
If you are unable to keep quiet and polite when posting, simply don't post. Thanks.
EDIT:
If you can't understand my point, please try to demonstrate where Renegade's statement above is wrong.
Being able to counter something never meant that it was balanced.

You are correct...your statement is how flame wars begin.

Please follow your second statement....or bring something to the table in this discussion. I personally don't think it is good manners to tell anybody in a post to shut up (keep quiet)......but I tend to be overly polite in my treatment of others.

Being able to counter something is what this game is all about. That is why it is in general balanced. Have you even tried to counter Gale? Where is your build showing the counters you tried? Can you point out the hours you spent trying to counter it and in the end gave it up as hopeless? Where is the evidence to show that it is impossible to counter (which would make it unbalanced)?

Where is the time and effort? Where are the movies/stats/ that show people trying to solve this problem? I find it more offensive that many have not even tried. Instead of trying to solve this problem with the skills provided, I hear calls for nerfs.

And let's see....I will edit my post above as I was using the pronouns in a larger sense (I never flame Renegade anywhere).....but let's see what Renegade says about me

Quote:

completely useless......your build is near to useless.....and you will loose.

And you have the nerve to try and say that I am flaming?

I did not take what he said personally, he was just discussing his position...but it appears that according to you he was flaming me. I personally respect his input and respect what he has to say....I reject the attitude of Nerf-First, rather than exploring counters...but that is non-specific to any one person.

Disagreeing with someone is not flaming them...

But back on topic:

Quote:

An elite hammerskill gets outdone by a skill practically anyone can use.

I think you have a point....up to a point. But let's examine how Gale is actually used in...lets say a GVG match and how, because of counters, that perhaps that Elite Hammerskill might come back into vogue:

I see most of the time 2 perhaps 3 Gale Warriors in a build that uses W/E. Now, a good W/E does not spam Gale constantly, he/she uses it many times as a snare....less rarely as an interupt. Go on observe mode and follow a good one around.....all the other skills on the bar are DPS oriented.....so when they get close to killing an opponent (sees them at 1/3rd health perhaps and they are close), they Gale to drop them so they can get those last few hits in. It is also used as an interupt....but in more of a pressure/harrrass way than an actual attempt to interupt a specific skill. So it really becomes a compliment to their DPS output.

So lets say I have one skill on my bar (lets say its Arcane Thievery then) and I Aecho that of course and use it on the two Gale Warriors. I know for a fact that is their only spell. Now for 30+ seconds their DPS "finisher/snare" is denied them.....and I can keep this up permanantly. Now what happens to that W/E build after 3 matches in a row of this (lets say AT becomes a Popular/commonly carried Counter to his build). Well he has some choices here.....he can add another spell (lowering his DPS even more and I still get Gale 50% of the time) or he can go back to that Elite Hammer interupt (that is not a spell). And that's how the meta-game plays out. If in every single match that W/E loses his/her precious Gale....how long do you think this build will remain popular?

Now I have used AT quite a bit in all contexts, if I don't have a W/E to counter,....I simply steal a spell from the monk....or the ele......it is a simple "Random" Diversion cast at that point.....and I don't see that as a "wasted slot" (boy it is hilarious when you steal ROF off a monk).

Now no one has the time to write a book about every hypothetical (the ...but...but...but...response to what I outlined above)....but I see the above scenario as very possible. When the returns on bringing that W/E with Gale into a match keep diminishing....what happens to the popularity of that build? Recall the KD/AS warrior craze right out of release? I remember as a Mesmer during that time I would always have AS on my skill bar thanks to AT and a warrior running around mad as hell.....he/she would never get a single one off the whole entire match. I don't see many of them anymore (for various reasons o course).

So although Gale is available to Warriors, it can very quickly be made less effective/frustrating to carry. Maybe they still get it off on occasion, but after awhile....it just becomes a liability as they play with 7 skills constantly. And isn't that more satisfying than simply asking for a nerf to solve the problem for you? Afterall, the process above is the heart and soul of the game....why would you want it any other way?

Former Ruling · Feb 16, 2006, 05:50 PM // 17:50

I posted a LONG time ago - that no game mech needs to be changed just for 1 skill...

If they think Gale is a problem..Just make gale Cost more. I mean..Blinding Flash costs 15E for some blinding only..why should Gale only cost 5E for long knockdown..

BOOM...thats it...solves all your problems with Gale. If it cost 15-25E they cant "spam" it and offhands couldnt get past exhaustion as fast (offhand swithing can solve 5E easy....25energy..not so much..a +27 offhand could get you one more casting..but at the cost of having negative energy for awhile after)

Renegade ++RIP++ · Feb 16, 2006, 06:54 PM // 18:54

If AT becomes used, they might start using 2 spells like shock and gale. In the end you'll only disable one which is random. So there is a 50/50 chance that you'll disable the gale as you stated. But in the end this 50/50 shot is enough to keep the others from starting their snare. And use backupsnare for keeping him on the ground which is the main use of the snare. The rest of their damageoriented items are still intact (shock at 9 - 10 air packs a decent punch, nearly as much as 3/4th an eviscerate).

The only reason why shock is balanced in comparison is because its not ranged and still has the same exhaustion.

Like I said, and i'm still from this opinion, gale needs a small downwards adjustment and hammers need a small upwards adjustment (modwise(higher base armormod, higher base healthmod, longer effect)/damagewise and in some skills).

The only defence against this knockdown spell is spellbreaker or obsidian flesh or from the warrior line balanced stance and dolyak signet.

sun is in us · Feb 16, 2006, 07:27 PM // 19:27

Quote:

and I Aecho that of course and use it on the two Gale Warriors.

Change the above to one gale warrior.

Quote:

(the ...but...but...but...response to what I outlined above)

And again, disabling Gale for 50% of the time is still nice, even though many times it will be 100%. Most skills are only partial counters......

Ever heard of this skill?

Ward Against Melee
Spell. You create a Ward Against Melee at your current location. For (Min: 8 - Max: 20) seconds, allies in this area have a 50% chance to evade melee attacks.

By the logic presented...this skill is worthless then. After all, it is only 50% of the time......but yet, I see it still used...hmmm.

Quote:

The only defence against this knockdown spell is spellbreaker or obsidian flesh or from the warrior line balanced stance and dolyak signet.

Is this really your belief? You have wracked your brain and you can only see these few skills to counter this spell (we havent even gone over all anti-spell counters, like AC...or Energy Denial....I mean there are myriad ways)? I bet that if you spent 15 minutes with a skill list and actually put some thought into it....you could have a list of more than 15-20 skills. But even given that, AT is still one of the simplest easiest...and its fire and forget.....no need to baby sit. I can't really see any need to use an Elite just to counter Gale....that's overkill.....I would rather just live with Gale at that point (besides, as outlined above tactically, if some warrior is trying to finish me via a Gale knockdown, Aegis...Guardian etc...simple stances...they still deny him his precious DPS).

To make an analogy: Is the only counter to a melee attack a Defensive Stance....no...of course we blind that warrior and no need for the stance, or cast clumsiness on them, or ineptitude, or shadow of fear, or Ward against Melee,.....its a veritable cornucopia....

Renegade ++RIP++ · Feb 16, 2006, 07:44 PM // 19:44

Even using echo is still only 1 warrior out of the game for kiting and you still got 2 left which are in most cases enough to get it done. On top of that the signet that disables your elite and you can kiss the doubling goodbye. Which might become a staple build once you start doing that.

Reason for using the ward is in most cases to couple it with guardian or even aegischains which then gives 90 - 100% block. Which as you know is really powerfull unless you carry the counters. Still there are more ways to counter that then just letting them ball up. Just retreating is already usefull, although i still prefer the usage of rigor mortis or warriors cunning. Or jsut switching of targets. Still there is a difference between disabling 50% from the abilities from 1 of the 3 warriors. That is still only 16.67% Heck at most 33.33% and you just had to use your main elite and only effective easy counteroption to do so.

energydenial is useless because of the false energy switch.

Interruption can be used, as can blackout. But in most cases warriors are left alone and people concentrate on the monks/squishies.

Another counter could have been mark of subversion and prolly also diversion, but all these counters require a bigger teamwork or spammingfactor.

sun is in us · Feb 16, 2006, 08:12 PM // 20:12

List one skill and I can hypothetically counter it ad infinitum.....which is what I love about the game though:

Most teams don't run 3 W/E. And if they do....so what....2/3 ain't bad.

Aecho...not Echo....why would I bring Echo to double AT?

If you bring Sig of Humilty....hope you are aren't trying to use it against my Aecho......doh.

I was playing a Malaise Spammer the other day......energy switch out of your Axe if you like you are still never going to regen...and I just disabled you as you try and wand me to death....

Quote:

Interruption can be used, as can blackout. But in most cases warriors are left alone and people concentrate on the monks/squishies.

I thought this whole thread was about the use of Gale by Warriors? That is who we are talking about here......I don't see many monks using it (but I haven't searched it)

Mark of Subversion works on spells you cast on allies...not spells on foes. You would use Guilt for that (and yes, I have cast Guilt on Gale users before....always fun to see them get confused by it).

Yes, Diversion is another counter.

I feel like that Gym teacher that finally puts in the policy "If I hear another 'I Can't do this' outta you people that person is going to climb ropes for the rest of the session."

Renegade ++RIP++ · Feb 16, 2006, 08:37 PM // 20:37

hmm see it now, its a spell on an ally, i just remember it being used on my monk while i was trying to heal people and seeing my spell failing

. So went a bit further. But I meant guilt.

You wouldn't but I thought you wrote down Echo and not arcane echo. Still seeing as i still think that energydenial is kinda useless i prefer an interrupt one which increases casttime of spells. And seeing as you stated yourself that you were spamming malaise, 1 diversion and you can stop your spamming. And diversion is kinda a staple build on nearly any mesmer. It is even a staple one on my ranger.

And yes this handles primarilly about gale and warriors, but i was just pointing out that even though there is the threat of galewarriors, they are in most cases still left alone since in most cases the warriors take longer to take out if you leave the monks to their healingjob. Only thing that gets done is warriorhate ergo blind/hexes etc so more disruptive then really damaging.

And the point of wanding you is to build up the adrenaline so they can unleesh one big chain on you once you got kited by one warrior.

However in all the matches that i have seen, they were mostly using 3 warriors/eles or 2 with gale and a couple aireles with gale as well. Just as a backup or as a safetyprecaution. Its nifty to use on a warrior assaulting you and then running away.

sun is in us · Feb 16, 2006, 09:08 PM // 21:08

Well, I think someone dropped some coke in my cherrios this morning as I didn't really plan on getting into this topic when I first saw it as:

I think that the whole "case" against Gale is overwrought anyway.....but I felt like drawing a line in the sand today.

Like you alluded to, I find Gale Warriors kinda a "meh" anyway. They are still warriors, and there are many counters that take out that axe, even if they Gale you down on occasion. You are right, there are many threats out there besides a W/E.

So I guess the main point of all of this for me is: Don't call for a nerf just because something is used often (Nerf Rez Sigs!), and if you are going to call for a nerf, then you better have all your ducks in a row and be able to PROVE that it is overpowered through math/videos/diagrams and that proof has to live through every "test" of it. No perfect scenarios, no talking about the skill in isolation, no ignoring of perfectly good counters that you just don't want to carry on your skill bar (but i dun't wannna carry a snare for a runnner.....etc).....suck it up and carry the counter.

So this swirl about Gale is a Tempest in a Teacup to me. If the first post said "Well, here is the build I have been using, and it is totally ineffective against Gale warriors, and our Guild has tried every combination and there is just no way to stop this UBER skill.....hey....then we have a legitimate starting point for a real "is this skill overpowered?" discussion. But when you really can disable Gale so readily with the skills available.....kinda silly really.

I like the fact that I can predict what my opponent will be using....and if it were up to me....I would only face Gale Warriors then in GVG....I know their game plan, I know how to shut them down, I know what they have on their skill bar.

That is the attitude I feel the community should have regarding Gale.....if for two weeks, one Mes char in every match devoted 1/64th of their time to manipulating the W/E Gale build.....that build would be all but gone....just that quickly.......

Hiryu · Feb 16, 2006, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Quote:

Like you alluded to, I find Gale Warriors kinda a "meh" anyway. They are still warriors, and there are many counters that take out that axe, even if they Gale you down on occasion. You are right, there are many threats out there besides a W/E.

The issue isn't "whether or not they are counterable". The real issue is about how much "Threat" they have, or how much True Damage" they do, where "True Damage" = "Total Direct Damage" + "Total Opportunity Costs you make the enemy team incur". If you make the enemy waste slots on sticking counters in their skill bars against you, or simply making them make a significant reaction to your presence, you're already inflicting "True Damage" to them. You're making them incur and opportunity cost of time, attention, and skill slots on their bar! That's pretty much the problem with multiple Gale Warriors. Sure, your team wastes at least 2 character slots out of 8 to include those Gale Warriors in your team, and the enemy can use general counters against Warriors such as snares, Visage, etc., but add Gale to a Warrior's arsenal and their threat level skyrockets. Just counters like Guardian and Snares aren't enough to deal with these Warriors anymore. To deal with this increased threat level, the enemy team has to bring counters against the Gale, but thanks to the lack of effective counters against Gale, those Warriors are able to start forcing their enemies to incur massive opportunity costs if they want to keep up (Balanced Stance and Dolyak Signet force you to use Warrior secondary, Arcane Theivery forces you to pump points into Domination and use Mesmer secondary, Obsidian Flesh is an Elementalist elite and can only be cast on yourself, Spellbreaker is an elite that already has a huge opporutunity cost and forces you to be Monk primary). But really, I don't think that just the high opportunity costs that are inflicted on the enemy make Gale (Warriors) "overpowered".

I think the real problem is the lack of opportunity costs incurred by the player that's using Gale. As it is, Gale is over-efficient (even on any other class besides Warriors). Sure, you can counter it and so on (although not without a relatively large investment), but it's still a little "too" efficient compared to every other skill available to you in the game and it comes with a low opportunity cost (non-elite, only requires 5 in Air Magic to reap full effects).

I don't think Gale needs to be hit hard by the nerf-bat... it just needs to be toned down a bit. I think either making it cost 10 energy (seems to be a fair amount?), or making it possible for Exhaustion to go into the negatives would work. I don't think making it possible for Exhaustion to go into the negatives would totally screw that mechanic over either... it'd just kill off the focus swap abuse. These changes might be able to help retain balance while still making Gale a very useful skill.

Thoughts?

Renegade ++RIP++ · Feb 16, 2006, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Sun the point that we are trying to make is not that gale is counterable, since i'm pretty sure that every skill is counterable. Even every hammerknockdown.

What we are implying is that gale is better at its job then any other hammerknockdown that is conceivable. Even the elite one. And to top it off that its penalty is inefficient to stop its abuse since there is the simple switch weapons to get back sufficient energy without getting penalized with the exhaustion. Or do you disagree with the statement that the hammerknockdowns are easier to counter then gale is?

carl jack · Feb 16, 2006, 09:33 PM // 21:33

I like climbing ropes

Quote:

Originally Posted by sun is in us

I feel like that Gym teacher that finally puts in the policy "If I hear another 'I Can't do this' outta you people that person is going to climb ropes for the rest of the session."

sun is in us · Feb 16, 2006, 10:15 PM // 22:15

Quote:

thanks to the lack of effective counters against Gale------your team wastes at least 2 character slots out of 8...........Gale to a Warrior's arsenal and their threat level skyrockets.

And add one counter (out of 64) on your skill bar and the threat nosedives. No more Gale. But I know this answer is not the one you want.....so it will be ignored.

Heheh ok I'm out. Last Post. I appreciate the chance to mix up it with all of you and see where you are coming from. I, unfortunately, don't think I can make my position any more apparent.

So, Friendly like I say: Go ask for a nerf. Whatever floats your boat. Don't try to counter it, just give up...write ANET...write your Congressman. This is a game of skills and counter-skills by and large, and if you don't want to participate in that part of the game...it's going to be frustrating and I suppose I can see why a nerf is your focus instead. I was tilting at windmills....

I don't ever "waste" a slot by countering somebody elses Skill. AT is one slot that lasts over 30 seconds, and on a standard W/E build, Gale will always be that spell that is gone. Please don't bring a REZ of any kind in your match....it is just a "waste" of a skill as you just trying to counter your opponent making you dead. That takes away from your perfect build you had on paper. Please, never adapt, never react, and never counter your enemy....if they use tanks....don't ever use airplanes against those tanks.....that is just the enemy making you waste a "skill slot" on killing their tanks when you could be using your own shiny tanks. I'm sure Sun Tzu would aggree with that philosophy. Doh...Sarcasm Spasm there.....

Leech Signet, or some other interupts, are a "waste" also. Leech for instance is 45 second recharge, which means you get to prevent the use of ONE SKILL on your opponent every 45 seconds....or choose whichever interupt you prefer...many of them have recharge times and only prevent one skill use in the moment. Wards only last 9-18 seconds or some such......Aegis lasts 10 when up there, stances last 5-14 seconds, Preparations last 24 seconds, Hell, a Crippling Elite lasts 8 seconds or some such.

For my money, 30+ seconds of guaranteed shutdown is probably one of the best cost/benefit ratios in the whole skill list. For some....it is tragedy that they would have to carry it. But hey, I like playing the game; some don't find this part fun.

Quote:

What we are implying is that gale is better at its job.....or do you disagree with the statement that the hammerknockdowns are easier to counter then gale is?

I think it is doing the job exactly as it was designed to do. Didn't you (like me) scratch your head the very first time you saw the skill? I looked at it and said "Hmm 5 Energy...but it causes exhaustion? Why did they do it that way? What does this make it suited for? Hmmmm it seems like you could use it in bursts then.....good for snaring...or defense...may be able to use it with KD skills and and to prevent a skill use......etc.......so......ahh that is why they didn't put a huge recharge on it or make it 15 energy....they want me to spam this when I can and then pay some sort of price later...."

Didn't you figure that out like I did? It is operating exactly like they planned. 5 energy was not a typo they just left in there after lo these many months. And I am not worried about the zero exhaustion component...it works the same for anybody. If you want to be perma-exhausted and continually keep yourself between 0 and 5 energy in the pool, that's anyone's choice. And then of course, I was already very familiar with spell counters, so when a build has one spell that the player playing it deems important, and I have AT....then bye bye to their spell if I feel like it (KD/AS combo again).

The real beef I see repeated again and again is some feel it's too efficient...I see it operating as designed, and some just don't want to feel "burdended" by countering it. And heck ya, if you let a W/E using Gale do whatever they like, it sure is going to seem real efficient, but why would I ever want to let them do that? Why do they get a free ride? No, I am going to screw with them every time I see a need to.

And as described, I think Gale (ESPECIALLY in this case as opposed to fighting a full blown spell skill bar), is equally easy to defeat compared to hammer knockdown. Yes we have conditions and so melee can miss, but I play a lot of Mesmer (along with all the classes), so, spell casters are my favorite meal. And that goes double for a Warrior with One spell.....yawn.

Well, I don't mind the burden at all. I will shut down the W/E for the next couple of weeks if I feel like it and have a great time in PVP while many wait expectantly for their favorite Nerf and sitting on their hands when not wringing them. I know who will be enjoying themselves more.....Gale does not scare me in the least. If ANET decides to change......I'll go with the new version also...big whoopdee do. It's just a game after all....

Peace.

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I like climbing ropes

You get laps instead.

Oh wait....you weren't whining....ok you "start" in Saturday's game.

PS. Yay for Warriors then.

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and _that_ is a problem

So I take it that ANET made a mistake by giving them adrenaline skills? 'Cause now it seems the problem is that Warriors can by and large ignore their Energy pool....who knew?

Many PVP warriors these days (after all the experiments we have seen) run on no energy, so great, that is part of the classe. They also have only two pips of energy. So that is why Bunny Thumpers got some of their popularity....they can spam Irresistable all day long in comparison to a Warrior Primary....fun.