Curse

JYX · Feb 13, 2006, 10:12 PM // 22:12

The post which you originally replied to, and then I commented on was in regards to a mo/me build. This is also the angle in which I argued my case, and exclusively so. In which case either Physical Resistance or Distortion would be employed in a secondary slot. I was at no point comparing these skills used on a mesmer primary. There appears to be a misunderstanding at some point that distorts quite a few things being discussed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

That's not the point. The point is that the stance is worthless once the Warrior switches from Physical Damage. It doesn't do MUCH more damage, but it does do MORE instead of LESS which is what you were trying to acomplish by using PR in the first place.

The point of that part was to demonstrate that even were they to come prepared, they would still not gain much of an advantage. In the original post you said that this stance actually hurts you should the warrior take precaution. I am trying to quantify and thereby put into perspective the amount of hurt the stance could possibly do, attempting to demonstrate that it is almost negligable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

Yes but that's also not taking into account serpents quickness, etc. And even if you can cast PR every 20 seconds...then they can end it every 20 seconds. I don't see how it helps that you have the energy to cast it.

Are you referring to serpent's quickness on the warrior on on the mesmer? You can't run sq on a warrior and you obviously can't run it on a mesmer using pr/distortion, so I'm not really sure whats going on here.

Also you said in the original post that the skill had an "insane" recharge time, here I was trying to demonstrate that this was not true. 20 seconds, and the energy even for a monk to consistently supply the energy needed, adding some protection at least and also forcing the warrior to refresh his adren. You'd waste a lot more energy healing up and removing the deep wound.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

You're right there. It is energy heavy, but I always make sure I'm losing only 1 energy per hit dodge...which isn't much better but hey. And I only use distortion if I'm planning on making the Warriors run after me. In which case I'm not gonna be much help to the battle anyway, aside from temporarily taking the warriors out of it.

This part you're also referring to a mesmer primary I assume. Seeing as how the break point for 1 energy is 12 illusion...a monk can't realistically make that. Its also harder for a monk to drop everything and kite. This is also where the overlaps with your existing skillsets come in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

Again, I'm not saying PR doesn't have it's uses...Like when you know exactly what your up against. But it doesn't hold a match to distortion in keeping you alive against PvP'ers.

On a mesmer primary? No, you're right I don't think PR would be an appropriate skill at all. I would take distortion or nothing at all. On a mo.me though again I would say that both are valid skills. You're going to be speccing into inspiration anyway. Its not as good as distortion, but theres no need to spread your attribute points and its a lot cheaper. Again I'd say you get what you pay for.

SnipiousMax · Feb 14, 2006, 03:49 AM // 03:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Everous

The post which you originally replied to, and then I commented on was in regards to a mo/me build. This is also the angle in which I argued my case, and exclusively so. In which case either Physical Resistance or Distortion would be employed in a secondary slot. I was at no point comparing these skills used on a mesmer primary. There appears to be a misunderstanding at some point that distorts quite a few things being discussed.

Yup I misunderstood the first post I qouted...and So I've been aurguing the wrong points. That said....PR is still a worthless skill for a monk. (just that distortion isn't much better)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Everous

The point of that part was to demonstrate that even were they to come prepared, they would still not gain much of an advantage. In the original post you said that this stance actually hurts you should the warrior take precaution. I am trying to quantify and thereby put into perspective the amount of hurt the stance could possibly do, attempting to demonstrate that it is almost negligable.

Yes, your right that the additional damage is negligible...but that isn't including conjure warriors, or Kindle Rangers, or Ele Spikers...or a combination of them. Your right the dps from a single warrior wielding an elemental weapon is negligible...but especially as a monk, you are the target of more than one person....so that 4 dps, might be closer to 12, and in that case it would hurt you. Even if it was just one warrior. You just cast a spell that is doing you no good. Even if there was no elemental penalty, you just wasted energy. That also hurts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Everous

Are you referring to serpent's quickness on the warrior on on the mesmer? You can't run sq on a warrior and you obviously can't run it on a mesmer using pr/distortion, so I'm not really sure whats going on here.

It's entirely possible (if improbable) that a warrior could have SQ, but your right its not a popular build. I was trying to point out that even if you could cast it every 20 secs, the warrior's wild blow would recharge just as quickly (or potentially quicker) than your PR. So everytime you put it up, he could tear it back down.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Everous

Also you said in the original post that the skill had an "insane" recharge time, here I was trying to demonstrate that this was not true. 20 seconds, and the energy even for a monk to consistently supply the energy needed, adding some protection at least and also forcing the warrior to refresh his adren. You'd waste a lot more energy healing up and removing the deep wound.

20 seconds is a very long time compared to other monk protections spells that would be better suited here. You can die easily in 20 seconds. Especially if you were depending on PR entirely. I got a little carried away in saying INSANE...but it still comes out to the same, wether it takes 20 secs or 50 secs, its time you aren't protected.

Anyway, I still wouldn't use PR with a monk...especially with the monk skills mentioned before. There are better, less fragile ways of protecting yourself than using PR.

Avarre · Feb 14, 2006, 11:37 AM // 11:37

You do know that eles target you too?

Lets recap:

Physical resist : less damage from most warriors, about half rangers, more damage from eles.

Distortion : 1/4 damage approximately from warriors and rangers, general immunity to adrenal skills and interrupts (because they rarely get lucky on those and can't build adren while missing horribly, plus you're running). No penalty versus other classes, and 1 energy every infrequent attack is not crippling.

For monk -> Guardian

Cheap, fast, a good 120+ heal as protboon, 40% block at 10 prot giving protection against adrenal and interrupts.

Best for mesmer = distortion
Best for monk = guardian (divine favor bonus), maybe SoD but costly.

This is not a debatable thing, this is a statement of fact. The debateable things is what is second best. Physical res will never compare to distortion due to its incredible one-sidedness, the failure to protect against the major risk (conditions, knockdown and interrupts), and the unknown factor on whether the enemy even uses physical.

JYX · Feb 14, 2006, 12:31 PM // 12:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

Yup I misunderstood the first post I qouted...and So I've been aurguing the wrong points. That said....PR is still a worthless skill for a monk. (just that distortion isn't much better)

Playing devil's advocate here, but it would appear distortion is already a commonly accepted skill on a monk. iQ used it at least...I think it was against TE but can't be sure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

Yes, your right that the additional damage is negligible...but that isn't including conjure warriors, or Kindle Rangers, or Ele Spikers...or a combination of them. Your right the dps from a single warrior wielding an elemental weapon is negligible...but especially as a monk, you are the target of more than one person....so that 4 dps, might be closer to 12, and in that case it would hurt you. Even if it was just one warrior. You just cast a spell that is doing you no good. Even if there was no elemental penalty, you just wasted energy. That also hurts.

Actually you'd be better off sticking with the warrior thing. Ele DPS is laughable compared to a warrior's. Also I really don't think anyone uses kindle rangers, orders are the basis of a ranger spike. The point I also made in the first post was that even were this skill doing you little good, you're still only using 0.43 pips should you choose to constantly maintain it anyway for whatever reason. I would definately maintain it against ranger spike even though only a small part of that damage is physical. In the same way I would definately activate it against IWAY.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

It's entirely possible (if improbable) that a warrior could have SQ, but your right its not a popular build. I was trying to point out that even if you could cast it every 20 secs, the warrior's wild blow would recharge just as quickly (or potentially quicker) than your PR. So everytime you put it up, he could tear it back down.

Hrm. I still don't think its viable to put SQ on a warrior. You lose both your IAS and your speed buff for long periods of time. I got that, and yes it would be torn down every time, but I meant that in this case it would be cheaper for them to tear down the stance than it would be for them to keep all their adrenaline and use it on you even through this stance. Sadly for Wild Blow this is the case even though PR is one of the more expensive and long recharging stances.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

20 seconds is a very long time compared to other monk protections spells that would be better suited here. You can die easily in 20 seconds. Especially if you were depending on PR entirely. I got a little carried away in saying INSANE...but it still comes out to the same, wether it takes 20 secs or 50 secs, its time you aren't protected.

Sympathetic Visage is another lose all adrenaline skill. Thats 30 second recharge. Aegis is 30 seconds, pacifism is 30 seconds, amity 45 seconds, shield of regeneration 20 seconds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

Anyway, I still wouldn't use PR with a monk...especially with the monk skills mentioned before. There are better, less fragile ways of protecting yourself than using PR.

Oh definately. But not a lot cheaper ways. Thats entirely the point, it offers really a different kind of protection for monks. We need to compare skills against their like skills, but in this case theres not really something that offers the possibility of this kind of protection, even if its this fragile at the price. As part of a 3 monk team, you'll have these things cast on you anyway which of course is part of the point, especially with the current trend of boonprotting. Perhaps you can't afford to use Distortion due to your skillset. If you hit an IWAY team (not unlikely), you're pretty much in the money then.

In summary you're right, it definately is fragile, but the payoff is big, the losses very small and at that energy price I'd take the gamble. In that sense then it doesn't even begin to fill the same role as distortion, trying to compare them directly in that way is going to yield skewed results. If you have the build to support distortion then go for it, in many instances though that is just not the case, and in these instances PR is far from the useless PvE only skill you relegate it to.

SnipiousMax · Feb 15, 2006, 02:29 AM // 02:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Everous

Actually you'd be better off sticking with the warrior thing. Ele DPS is laughable compared to a warrior's. Also I really don't think anyone uses kindle rangers, orders are the basis of a ranger spike. The point I also made in the first post was that even were this skill doing you little good, you're still only using 0.43 pips should you choose to constantly maintain it anyway for whatever reason. I would definately maintain it against ranger spike even though only a small part of that damage is physical. In the same way I would definately activate it against IWAY.

Since IWAY warriors are attacking faster, wouldn't that partially take away the advantage of PR. I'll do the math later, but it seems that the increased attack speed would at least partially overcome PR, assuming they weren't using elemental weapons, in which case PR would be completely ignored. Don't alot of IWAY warriors use Vampiric Weapons? PR wouldn't stop them leeching your health away. But I guess it could be argued that the increase in attack speed partially take away the advantage of dodge/block skills as well... And while DPS might not compare to a warrior, the threat of an air spike or a Ranger Kindle spike can't be ignored (and lots of rangers use kindle...) A burst of Elemental damage is still gonna hurt more, however small the extra DPS is with -14 armor .(assuming you have enough points in Inspiration to get it down to -14, it could be as high as -24.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Everous

...I meant that in this case it would be cheaper for them to tear down the stance than it would be for them to keep all their adrenaline and use it on you even through this stance. Sadly for Wild Blow this is the case even though PR is one of the more expensive and long recharging stances.

Wild blow doesn't require adrenaline. You could use it with no hits at all. So nothing is keeping the warrior from dumping his adrenaline skills like an experienced player would do (thus causing conditions and forcing heal) THEN whiping stance with wild blow. So monk would have to heal, mend condition, AND use stance again. So I don't see how it's cheaper.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Everous

Sympathetic Visage is another lose all adrenaline skill. Thats 30 second recharge. Aegis is 30 seconds, pacifism is 30 seconds, amity 45 seconds, shield of regeneration 20 seconds.

What about guardian, SoD and RoF? Short term spells quick recharge spells in same attribute as the longer spells. Easy to put them in between, so you're still protected. Granted you could use them while PR was down...but if you were depending on PR for respite, and it was removed.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Everous

Oh definately. But not a lot cheaper ways.

I'm sorry, but you can't say its cheaper when it doesn't work. It will cost you more in other ways. (ie. skill slot, wasted energy,etc.) It's like buying a T.V. from some guy in a van. It may be cheaper, but with no guarentee that it's even gonna work, or end up costing you more in the end.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Everous

Thats entirely the point, it offers really a different kind of protection for monks. We need to compare skills against their like skills, but in this case theres not really something that offers the possibility of this kind of protection, even if its this fragile at the price.

Given, but the general purpose is the same, so the skills can be compared. Its aimed at making you harder to kill, so how well it does in that purpose can be compared to other availible means. It's like saying you can't compare Eviscerate and Cleave. Its true they serve different purposes, but you can easily compare how well they work in practice.

My biggest problem with PR, is that you can still be knocked down, interrupted, conditioned, crippled, etc. While with other skills these aren't as much of a problem. Dodging or block even a percent of the time means less chance that the warrior will hamstring you, or that the ranger will interrupt that crucial skill. Gambling on PR is saying that you don't believe people use those skills frequently.

All that said... There may be something said for combining it with other skills. Alone I don't believe it is worth the skill slot that holds it. But I can see even as I type this that it could be very worthwhile COMBINED with other protection skills (for example a Ward's elementalist/mesmer). But then do you really need it if your going to use other protections spells anyway? Wouldn't your effort be better spent in other places?

JYX · Feb 15, 2006, 10:26 AM // 10:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

Since IWAY warriors are attacking faster, wouldn't that partially take away the advantage of PR. I'll do the math later, but it seems that the increased attack speed would at least partially overcome PR, assuming they weren't using elemental weapons, in which case PR would be completely ignored. Don't alot of IWAY warriors use Vampiric Weapons? PR wouldn't stop them leeching your health away. But I guess it could be argued that the increase in attack speed partially take away the advantage of dodge/block skills as well... And while DPS might not compare to a warrior, the threat of an air spike or a Ranger Kindle spike can't be ignored (and lots of rangers use kindle...) A burst of Elemental damage is still gonna hurt more, however small the extra DPS is with -14 armor .(assuming you have enough points in Inspiration to get it down to -14, it could be as high as -24.)

No self respecting organised ranger team will use kindle.
IWAY won't use elemental weapons.

The increase in attack speed will deal proportionally more damage right across the board for the actual weapon yes. The advantage distortion has here is that of course PR won't ignore orders, so there will be a disproportionate increase of damage inflicted to the guy using PR. For the price though its still far and away worth it.

And no, a inspiration monk would have 10 in inspiration which would give him -16 again elemental damage. Take the wanderer's set and any + armor focii you can get and the armor loss gets very small.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

Wild blow doesn't require adrenaline. You could use it with no hits at all. So nothing is keeping the warrior from dumping his adrenaline skills like an experienced player would do (thus causing conditions and forcing heal) THEN whiping stance with wild blow. So monk would have to heal, mend condition, AND use stance again. So I don't see how it's cheaper.

Thats assuming too much, you'll have 42% evade when those things hit anyway. Maybe aegis layered on as well. Under these circumstances, yes it is cheaper than using distortion with guardian and aegis. Even were this not the case, and assuming you're constantly recasting PR plus mendprotting yourself...assuming you mend yourself every 4.2 seconds on average which btw is an overestimate...you'd still most likely be cheaper than distortion.

Also if the warrior using wild blow chooses to dump all his skills onto you before wild blowing you, PR has definately been useful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

I'm sorry, but you can't say its cheaper when it doesn't work. It will cost you more in other ways. (ie. skill slot, wasted energy,etc.) It's like buying a T.V. from some guy in a van. It may be cheaper, but with no guarentee that it's even gonna work, or end up costing you more in the end.

Point is its so cheap that even if it worked for 1/10 of the overall effect of distortion, it'd still be cheaper than distortion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

Given, but the general purpose is the same, so the skills can be compared. Its aimed at making you harder to kill, so how well it does in that purpose can be compared to other availible means. It's like saying you can't compare Eviscerate and Cleave. Its true they serve different purposes, but you can easily compare how well they work in practice.

Have you compared how well this works in practice? From your replies I gather you have not even tried a distortion/PR monk. This is a lot more complicated than Evisc and Cleave, it depends on the rest of your skillbar for a start, what enchants your team are using overall, your ability to kite an enemy, the enemy's skillset etc. When forced to use them for about a month...you'll end up using these skills in completely different ways.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

My biggest problem with PR, is that you can still be knocked down, interrupted, conditioned, crippled, etc. While with other skills these aren't as much of a problem. Dodging or block even a percent of the time means less chance that the warrior will hamstring you, or that the ranger will interrupt that crucial skill. Gambling on PR is saying that you don't believe people use those skills frequently.

As a mo/me you're going to get galed no matter what you use. Again, I'm saying PR is worth it for the energy even if it doesn't do any of these things. The deep wound won't be avoided from eviscerate no, but the damage mitigation alone has justified the energy I've spent. Again this is an example in how the roles of distortion and PR are completely different. You're expecting it to do things that simply aren't justified by its costs. These are costs in terms of both energy upkeep yes, but also in stat distribution and synergy with monk equipment.

SnipiousMax · Feb 15, 2006, 05:24 PM // 17:24

At this point (since I've understood the original post) I've not be arguing for using Distortion in place of PR. My comment about comparing skills was aimed at the already in place Monk Protection skills. You are right that Distortion will be much more expensive and require a different type of play than PR. I am arguing that despite using what your calling a cheap skill, it's not giving much of a benefit and that You're making it out to be bettter than it is. And if you look back to the original post... Dodo was using this for CA, where every other flippin ranger is using Kindle, and lots of warriors carry Elemental weapons. And I'm not even bothered by the -elemental armor at this point...because you do make a good point about the Wander's and offhand making up for that...it's the fact that any gain you get from PR can be ignored completely in these situations. I know it's an 'IF', but I don't like gambling with skill slots.

This skill would be useful if you knew exactly what you were facing. If you were 100% sure you were facing an IWAY group. But it all comes down to this. Looking at it as a single standalone skill it is too easily countered and you have better if slightly more expensive choices. Combining it with other skills may or may not be advantagous. Its a gamble anyway you look at it. Avoiding hit's all together is much better, than merely reducing damage any way you look at it.

This thread might be better continued in the monk thread....

Avarre · Feb 16, 2006, 11:41 AM // 11:41

Even if I was facing Iway, I would take distortion. Avoiding 75% of their hits and thus 75% of their orders damage is a collosal benefit, as you don't get struck with conditions or armor-ignoring effects.

Half damage from physical? I've taken -120s from evisc, ill take a 75% at 0 over -60+deepwound, thanks.

rii · Feb 16, 2006, 03:58 PM // 15:58

Ok, just to clarify Im going to talk a little here, and its about gvg. Why? Cause ca, hA, and ta are all frankly places where you can run whatever whenever however and still pick up a victory.

The 'Meta' hasnt changed for... months. All teams are warrior heavy at a decent level and involve gale axe warriors and the occasional hammer or sword. Few people use orders in warrior teams, for simple reason that they arent required. A ranger spike needs them, iway... kind of needs them, but warrior gvg teams do not.

The damage a frenzied warrior deals per minute is competetive with a monks healing without factoring any buffs, debuffs, or anything else. By sheer quantity of dpm, 3+ warriors can overrun a defense's latent hpm, with spiking being merely a finisher, and instead of orders, playing a mesmer is a lot more use. People are running that, and it isnt going to change till the big patch/expansion after the GWWC.

Talking about gambles is meaningless. Obviously, distortion is as much a gamble as pr, since either one against elemental damage doesnt make squat difference. The only difference is which part of a warrior are you most scared of? Its dpm or its spike skills? Since pR dents both, and both without the big energy loss of distortion, it already looks better without even thinking.

The al is equivalent to half damage, and thats a lot of difference compared to the damage mitigation of dis. A warriors dpm under frenzy is more/equal to a monks healing capability (before shutdown) in dpm against hpm. Half it, and it becomes well within reasonable bounds, for a monk with no energy management whatsoever. A lot of warriors abilities is to stream pressure damage, so that when you spike, the enemy has little to react with, forcing errors/bagging easy kills. Spiking skills are icing on the cake, and frankly your prot monk should be able to deal with a warrior spike under reduced circumstances (i.e. pR and preferably something like guardian or blind - flashbots are common)

Distortion on the other hand, reduces damage only for a short period. As Everous has already said, its energy heavy (much more so than pR) and maintaining it outside of a bip/inspir energy management set up is unlikely. Of course, against dpm 75% is obviously more than 50% reduction, but due to aforementioned energy thats not going to happen. Dis is used to stop spikes, and thats about it. With a good defensive set up, not only should you not have to use your stance to stop spikes, it makes a minimal dent in the overall damage your going to take.

pR stops spikes to a limited degree, and reduces dpm to a very easily managed level. Dis. stops spikes very well, but the energy loss and the lack of reduction of dpm pR offers... Well, I'll stick with pR till someone says something better.

Stormblazer · Feb 16, 2006, 09:07 PM // 21:07

So what about using Greater Conflageration spirit + Mantra of Flame? Granted, that does use up you're elite slot, but it would work fairly well I'd think.

SnipiousMax · Feb 17, 2006, 12:18 AM // 00:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

Ok, just to clarify Im going to talk a little here, and its about gvg. Why? Cause ca, hA, and ta are all frankly places where you can run whatever whenever however and still pick up a victory.

And a blind one-armed monkey can find a win in GvG if he's team can cover up his idiocy. I don't buy that Elitism garbage. A good player is a good player regardless. Yes you could run anything and pick up a win in CA. But the good players are distanced in winning consistantly in CA. Players that frequent CA/TA/ and even HA are forced to be self sufficient, and the good ones can EASILY carry a four man team by themselves. Few exclusively GvG player's can boast carrying half their team, cause they're too dependant on everyone else. GvG is based on TEAM builds, not on any one person's part. You're not going to lose from 1/64's of your collective skills breaking down, so throwing that little jab in there will just skew the perspective. But I'm so glad people have that attitude. Seeing people flash their /rank emotes, and procceding to flawlessly smash them into the ground make my day. Then I flash my 'rank 0' emote. Don't get me wrong. Experienced GvG'rs are among the best of the best, but hardly hold the monoploy on good players.

And I would also direct your attention to the original post that this debate is based on...which I also misunderstood, as it specifies CA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

The 'Meta' hasnt changed for... months. All teams are warrior heavy at a decent level and involve gale axe warriors and the occasional hammer or sword.

Okay, I know that it does look like anything that lessens Physical Damage is going to be the end all here...but you've gotta take other things in mind.

Since these groups depend on Physical damage, there are a few things used to slow them down. Blind is one. Stance's are another. Since these groups (assuming they're full of intellegent players) are gonna prepare for these inevitabilities. The single best skill to use against a stance is Wild Blow. Not only does Wild Blow end the stance, it delievers a Critical Hit as well. Not to mention allowing team mates (since you opened the team door) to deliever well placed and timed spikes. And since you were kind enough to allow them to build up their adrenaline (aside from the kind soul that lost his to end your stance) they have plenty of nice skills to lay down on you. Where as, with Distortion (I assumed from your post you opened the discussion back up for mesmers?) there's a 75% chance you avoid Wild Blow, and 75% chance to avoid spike attacks which have 75% less adrenaline to spike with. I think the cost per benefit is easily justified there.

I'm not buying this 'lower's dps better than distortion' thing either. Even if the stance was up the whole time, you're still giving them adrenaline. Which lets them keep their DPS up at least a little bit. Now I know your gonna say "well you could use Sympathetic Visage/Soothing Images" and yes your right. But I think its worth pointing out that Distortion not only avoids 75% of damage compared to 50% of damage, it prevents damage AND keeps warriors from getting 75% of adrenaline by itself! So you should factor that into your nifty little cost/benefit comparisons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

Talking about gambles is meaningless. Obviously, distortion is as much a gamble as pr, since either one against elemental damage doesnt make squat difference.

Okay you're right. But since it's something common to both, we can eliminate it from the discussion. Same thing can be said for Gale. Both stances will do nothing to save you from a Gale, so that can be eliminated from discussion. Although it should be pointed out, that using Distortion limits your foes in what they CAN use to interrupt you. Hammer KD's, Ranger interrupts, disrupting Chop, etc. are all have a 75% chance of failing. Gale is about the only thing they can use if you're using a skill, and if you're using a spell, they're limited to Gale or mesmer interrupts...but since they're Warrior heavy, its probally only gale you'll have to worry about. We won't worry about Elemental damage, although someone might take up that arguement later.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

Since pR dents both, and both without the big energy loss of distortion, it already looks better without even thinking.

Again, I've shown you how distortion fills several roles for its energy cost. Conditions, interrupts, KD's, Spikes, adrenaline, AND damage are all covered by one skill 75% of the time. Which is REALLY cheaper?

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

Spiking skills are icing on the cake, and frankly your prot monk should be able to deal with a warrior spike under reduced circumstances (i.e. pR and preferably something like guardian or blind - flashbots are common)

Again, they can't spike if they don't have the adrenaline to do so. And if your stance fails, what will you fall back on? If distortion fails, you have a very short time to wait. But since your talking about monks now, instead of distortion, why not a better (even cheaper) monk skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

With a good defensive set up, not only should you not have to use your stance to stop spikes, it makes a minimal dent in the overall damage your going to take.

A good defensive set up would not depend on a stance at all. An good player will use distortion only when needed, and use shutdown (much more dependable) to lower the DPS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

pR stops spikes to a limited degree, and reduces dpm to a very easily managed level. Dis. stops spikes very well, but the energy loss and the lack of reduction of dpm pR offers... Well, I'll stick with pR till someone says something better.

Dis. doesn't lack in reduction either. It's been said many times this thread you get what you pay for, a single skill serving a single purpose, or a more expensive skill that serves many purposes... Seems to me that the cost is negligible.

Avarre · Feb 17, 2006, 10:30 AM // 10:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

Where as, with Distortion (I assumed from your post you opened the discussion back up for mesmers?) there's a 75% chance you avoid Wild Blow, and 75% chance to avoid spike attacks which have 75% less adrenaline to spike with. I think the cost per benefit is easily justified there.

I hate to knock a hole in the distortion faction, but wild blow cannot be evaded. However, it recharges in 5 seconds so the result is practically nil, and the prohibition of adrenal charge more than makes up for it.

I've long since quit this argument, too many ideological differences, mainly among people who think that because a monk can carry them when using a skill, it's good. I'm going to laugh when I see a PR mesmer get ground into the dust by shock warriors. Oh wait, I already have on observe a few times. He he he.

JYX · Feb 17, 2006, 11:14 AM // 11:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

But the good players are distanced in winning consistantly in CA.

The fact the CA proves absolutely nothing, the game not even being balanced for 4v4 having no effect on this?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

Seeing people flash their /rank emotes, and procceding to flawlessly smash them into the ground make my day. Then I flash my 'rank 0' emote. Don't get me wrong. Experienced GvG'rs are among the best of the best, but hardly hold the monoploy on good players.

You do this...with your SQ warrior I assume? Again, the game is not well balanced for 4v4, even if you were to pwn up CA completely, would this prove that you were a "good player"?. I don't think it would, not least to the extent that GvG would.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

And I would also direct your attention to the original post that this debate is based on...which I also misunderstood, as it specifies CA.

Energy efficiency is key for a CA monk, you're looking to heal a team of 4...and yes there are a lot of warriors in CA...and no most warriors in CA do not come prepared with a full elemental set besides their normal one....

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

Since these groups depend on Physical damage, there are a few things used to slow them down. Blind is one. Stance's are another. Since these groups (assuming they're full of intellegent players) are gonna prepare for these inevitabilities. The single best skill to use against a stance is Wild Blow. Not only does Wild Blow end the stance, it delievers a Critical Hit as well. Not to mention allowing team mates (since you opened the team door) to deliever well placed and timed spikes. And since you were kind enough to allow them to build up their adrenaline (aside from the kind soul that lost his to end your stance) they have plenty of nice skills to lay down on you. Where as, with Distortion (I assumed from your post you opened the discussion back up for mesmers?) there's a 75% chance you avoid Wild Blow, and 75% chance to avoid spike attacks which have 75% less adrenaline to spike with. I think the cost per benefit is easily justified there.

Distortion - Stance
For 5 seconds, you have a 75% chance to "Evade" attacks. Whenever you evade an attack this way, you lose 3-1 Energy or Distortion ends.

Wild Blow - Melee Attack
Lose all adrenaline. If it hits, this attack will result in a critical hit and any "Stance" being used by your target ends. This attack cannot be
blocked or evaded.

You need to rethink your theory.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

I'm not buying this 'lower's dps better than distortion' thing either. Even if the stance was up the whole time, you're still giving them adrenaline. Which lets them keep their DPS up at least a little bit. Now I know your gonna say "well you could use Sympathetic Visage/Soothing Images" and yes your right. But I think its worth pointing out that Distortion not only avoids 75% of damage compared to 50% of damage, it prevents damage AND keeps warriors from getting 75% of adrenaline by itself! So you should factor that into your nifty little cost/benefit comparisons.

I did. But I'll do it again if it pleases you...assuming you evade 1 attack every 2 seconds...distortion takes the equivalent of 6 pips to maintain. Or 1 attack every 3 seconds meaning 5 pips. We'll work with 5 pips since thats probably an under-estimate. Physical resistance takes 0.43 pips of energy to maintain constantly, by this calculation then you can afford to mend or use touch...or word of healing...every 3.2 seconds on average and still be more efficient than Distortion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

Again, I've shown you how distortion fills several roles for its energy cost. Conditions, interrupts, KD's, Spikes, adrenaline, AND damage are all covered by one skill 75% of the time. Which is REALLY cheaper?

PR is cheaper.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

Again, they can't spike if they don't have the adrenaline to do so. And if your stance fails, what will you fall back on? If distortion fails, you have a very short time to wait. But since your talking about monks now, instead of distortion, why not a better (even cheaper) monk skill.

You fall back on guardian, RoF, shielding hands and protective spirit. Instead of this cheaper monk skill...why not an EVEN cheaper mesmer skill. Don't tell me that its useless because in some circumstances it won't work, neither will protective spirit. There will certainly be matches where you won't get to use protective spirit or shielding hands...but we take this risk.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

A good defensive set up would not depend on a stance at all. An good player will use distortion only when needed, and use shutdown (much more dependable) to lower the DPS.

We're talking about monks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

Dis. doesn't lack in reduction either. It's been said many times this thread you get what you pay for, a single skill serving a single purpose, or a more expensive skill that serves many purposes... Seems to me that the cost is negligible.

When its easily over 11 times more expensive, no its not negligible.

In any case I'm pretty much done here, put out the case I wanted to. I was trying to push this somewhere meaningful but yeh its turning pretty scrubby.

rii · Feb 17, 2006, 11:33 AM // 11:33

To put stuff into context, i use a lot of dodge and shutdown from prot etc, so that might be why Im so vehement about damage reduction over dodge, since that is already provided.

However, my argument about what is most efficient is similar in nature to this guide:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/content...ess-id1103.php

Those numbers are all very old, so for example cleave is higher, but that base dpm isnt using ias, which is really standard, so thats not entirely fair either. However, the main point of that is that most warrior damage comes from dpm, with skills being the main things to spike with, not provide consistent damage increases (although they can be used like that)

You come from the perspective that the spike is the important thing to dodge, or i.e. the attack skills, since they are the main problem. pR comes from the attitude that the dpm (sustained pressure, one of the keystones of warrior damage) is the key point, with skills being something to be dealt with by offensive defense and a prot monk. The failings of most caster spike builds is they dont pressure the enemy, they merely turn the game into a reaction-fest (something youll know when you ever meet, say, air spike). Then with some shutdown, their spike is owned and they have nothing to work with. pR is an attempt (which of course should be supplemented) to reduce the problems of pressure, and turn it into as much of a spiker game as possible, where warrior spike isn't as great as other spikes... etc.

Wild blow... for a start, i very rarely see it... frankly most people dont want to gimp 1/3 of their spike source to spam off stances, although in this situation its reasonable (if they actually have it - most warriors at the moment really dont due to simple priorities). Whatsmore, as above stated wild blow owns distortion, although not quite to the degree of pR. However, factoring energy loss and maintenance (which you seem to be advocating is reasonable- which it really isnt) its probably the same as just healing yourself, if not a fair amount more -.-

LouAl · Feb 17, 2006, 09:41 PM // 21:41

I just want to point out that, whatever you might think, Dis and PR are two completely different skills. They can BOTH be used to great success and BOTH have drawbacks to them. I have used both of them and found that with Distortion I lose energy FAST if I am under significant pressure and when my energy is gone I die FAST, but with Physical Resistance I lose health FAST when I am under significant pressure, especially elemental modded weapons, and when my health is gone I AM dead. Go figure that Anet tried to make them balanced. I for one think they did a pretty good job with these two skills.

Avarre · Feb 18, 2006, 07:30 AM // 07:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Everous

Distortion - Stance
For 5 seconds, you have a 75% chance to "Evade" attacks. Whenever you evade an attack this way, you lose 3-1 Energy or Distortion ends.

Wild Blow - Melee Attack
Lose all adrenaline. If it hits, this attack will result in a critical hit and any "Stance" being used by your target ends. This attack cannot be
blocked or evaded.

You need to rethink your theory.

Already mentioned that.

Quote:

I did. But I'll do it again if it pleases you...assuming you evade 1 attack every 2 seconds...distortion takes the equivalent of 6 pips to maintain.

Distortion isn't a skill you maintain, it's a skill you use periodically to mess up opponent's attacks. In larger battles, you'll have skills like Aegis and guardian on you. The main purpose of distortion is to get you out of situations where normally you would be decimated, such as ranger spikes or too much dp/s.

You need to rethink your theory.

rii · Feb 18, 2006, 11:36 AM // 11:36

I think that came from the implication of Max that you ARE sustaining it. He references denial of adrenaline, which is something (to do) that you would have to maintain dis. (or at least use it a reasonable amount of the time) Your interpretation (which i think is more correct) is simply to aviod the adrenaline attacks when they come... which denies jack adrenaline. Or ranger spikes, whatever.

SnipiousMax · Feb 18, 2006, 03:38 PM // 15:38

I think we've all been arguing different cases. Which goes back to what Everous said about not comparing them....In which case, I'm a moron.

Short bursts of action (ie....one or two cycle's through a skill bar) vs. Long sustained game.