Curse

LouAl · Feb 15, 2006, 11:53 PM // 23:53

It is hard to argue with Avarre's logic, but I have had great success in PvE with wastrel's worry. I usually combine it with empathy/backfire/interupts to create that little bit of extra dmg. I know that it is not the 'perfect' skill, but few skills actually are perfect. It really comes down to preference. I like to use it and probably get a better than 90% hit rate with it, but it is almost always combined with other skills to get that hit rate.

One place where empathy and WW were an excellent combo was when fighting Glint. I know that this is a very specific application but is still worth mentioning. I had both hexes on Glint almost the whole time, and she died very quickly (we also had a decent tank that took most of the attacks).

Draracle · Feb 16, 2006, 02:55 AM // 02:55

I like Avarre's build, his Dom/Ill mesmer is quite nice -- I have picked up peices of it in his other posts. My build is Dom/Insp, but our Dom skills overlap greatly. I use empathy, backfire, and shatter as my main skills. I don't use distortion, as I don't have points in Illusion and I tend to be a coward around monsters. Mainly just kitting the warriors and rangers when I can. I agree with worry too, it doesn't do enough dmg to warrent a place on my bar, not that I don't think it is very good, I just think there are better options. I also run a glyph build so I will usually double my empathies right off the top and dish out at least 60dmg every 2 seconds off empathy alone. And I love watchin FoW rangers use barrage or the warriors cry "IWAY!" -- then the dmg is just insane. Shatter Hex is my warrior-bomb weapon. Since the warriors should solo the agro they should also recieve at least one hex. Sometimes, If I know that the warrior has two hexes I forgo the double empathy and double shatter -- KABOOM! All agroed warriors take 230dmg each. Backfire is the Empathy equal on the caster side. Often I use this in the opening second of the fight, with my FC I can beat most spells, to catch a caster's entire chain. Mesmers are particularly nice targets of this spell because of their need to intrupt. They LOVE to interupt! And often my backfire will catch their opening hex, possibly a second hex, and 1 or 2 interupts = over 500dmg. A nice e-burn will push them right over. As Avarra said, Monks are also begging for a backfire. Often it will shut them right up. sometimes I give them an e-burn too: they loose the 10e and the 80hp and then loose more e trying to regain that 80hp, it is a beautiful thing. My build is then powered through the Insp line, often only one skill as I can double it if need be. If I play it right, and keep my witts, I can keep casting and dealing dmg for an entire battle without bottoming out my energy. If I mess up, or a ranger comes in with lots of interupts, I might have some e problems -- but nothing which isn't fixed in about 5 seconds.

Another note on Backfire, Avarre if you could comment too: I don't like putting it on Elementalists (I am thinking FoW right now) as the damage they deal to a team can easily match the dmg I do with backfire. Especially if my casters cluster into an AoE. I will often give the monk or mesmer the Backfire and then use interupts on the Elementalist. I don't do as much dmg to the Ellie, but the Dmg given to Dmg received is a much better. Either that, or I hand out a few interupts and then follow with backfire incase he keeps casting past my interupt ability. I have seen too many lost HP due to that Ice Prison/Chaos Storm/Nuke trap.

Avarre · Feb 16, 2006, 11:53 AM // 11:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draracle

Another note on Backfire, Avarre if you could comment too: I don't like putting it on Elementalists (I am thinking FoW right now) as the damage they deal to a team can easily match the dmg I do with backfire. Especially if my casters cluster into an AoE. I will often give the monk or mesmer the Backfire and then use interupts on the Elementalist. I don't do as much dmg to the Ellie, but the Dmg given to Dmg received is a much better. Either that, or I hand out a few interupts and then follow with backfire incase he keeps casting past my interupt ability. I have seen too many lost HP due to that Ice Prison/Chaos Storm/Nuke trap.

It depends what the mobs in the enemy group are...

For shadow groups in FoW, backfire goes on the target monk first, always. This rips into their selfheals and helps bring down that monk quicker. In groups with a mesmer and ele, backfire goes on the eles first. The mesmer is the primary target, and as selfheal is limited anyways there is no problem with spreading the damage dealing. My interrupts usually just hit whatever I'm targetting, and never the target itself (since wars/rangers hitting target sometimes interrupt it, I prefer to interrupt other monks' orisons or fire storms from eles).

Imo I don't really have an algorithm for putting backfire, it usually functions by target of oppurtunity... but in general :

Monk - Ele - Mesmer - Shadow Beast

Ether Breaker - Icehand - Bond

Although icehands barely need it... when you see them running, they are using lightning touch, it's very easy to interrupt so long as you hit it just as they reach their target. Their other spells are all very very slow and won't be hurt heavily from backfire. Bonds I leave till last because their infuse isn't all that spammed, and they are quite annoying to kill.

On another note, if anyone has figured my entire mes/mo build out (and I have given the entire thing away scattered in posts), pm me

Just want to see if anyone has it. I use the same thing on every fow/uw run, so I suppose it works...

Nightow · Feb 17, 2006, 01:01 PM // 13:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Wastrels is a good skill, but not in PvE. Never in PvE

Why not? Hexes last less against bosses so Wastrel's worry would actually do dmg faster than the normal 3 sec. delay. I always bring it with me in PVE.

BTW, here's my build (w/runes)

Fast casting 10
Domination 12
Inspiration 12

res sig
empathy
backfire
leech sig
Cry of Frustration
Energy Tap (will trade out for elite ver. soon)
Ether Feast
Wastrel's Worry

Avarre · Feb 17, 2006, 01:08 PM // 13:08

*points a few posts up*

I explained the damage capacity of wastrel's in comparison to a control value (empathy damage/energy)

Caged Fury · Feb 17, 2006, 01:13 PM // 13:13

I've found that Wastrel's Worry become less useful in PvE as you progress. It's still has its uses against bosses as it gets triggered faster, but against most monsters it doesn't tigger as they tend to use skills more. On a recent journey to Mineral Springs, I found the Avicaras kept removing my WW by their constant use of skills. I was lucky to have one to trigger per foe. And chucking one on each time it was removed hurt my energy.

calamitykell · Feb 17, 2006, 02:30 PM // 14:30

I usually get pretty good results from my WW, I'd say about 70-75% hit. Sure some miss, but using WW just after they use a skill (if you can catch it) gives a better chance of it triggering than just throwing it on randomly or spamming it. I might just be lucky though.

Avarre · Feb 17, 2006, 04:16 PM // 16:16

Well lets take that into account...

Taking WW damage to be 64.

64 x 0.75 / 5e
= 48 / 5e
= 9.667 damage / 1 energy

64x0.75 / 3s
= 48/3s
= 16 damage / 1 second

And since neither spammed... we can take this to be 7-8 damage, per 1 energy, or about 12 damage per second.

For the price of 10 energy, Wastrels worry gives us approximately, say, 80 damage. Empathy costs 10 and gives, by the same scale, 30 damage per attack for 20 seconds. It also does not require you watch the enemy target to time your WW's. Nor is it a spammed skill.

In summary, WW requires you to focus target more, use more energy for less effect, and thus constrain your capabilities compared to the stapleskill empathy. This is why I dislike wastrel's worry for PvE.

Draracle · Feb 17, 2006, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Empathy: Feel my pain! Barrage, Hundred Blades, Cyclone, IWAY, all my favourite empathy users. And the "fire and forget" feature on a target which is usually last to die is near priceless. Marcus w/ barrage, I was dealing 90+ dmg every time he shot. While I was off killing jades.

LouAl · Feb 17, 2006, 09:07 PM // 21:07

I don't want this to end up beign a WW face off...

I like your math Avarre. It makes perfect sense, except that I ALWAYS have empathy in my skill bar when I bring WW. So the comparison is not really accurate for my character because it is no longer a question of one over the other since I have both.

At one attack per 1.33 second empathy does about 450 dmg over 20 seconds, there are very very few skills that can match that (even better under flurry/frenzy/etc), but I also like the 166 dmg over 3 seconds that you get from WW + Power Spike. Granted it costs more and is situational, but I find it to be a great spike on monks when they try to Orison their way out of a WW.

I should note that unless I am fighting a boss I almost never spam WW as the hit rate becomes awful when used that way and the skill become almost useless.

Nightow · Feb 18, 2006, 12:29 AM // 00:29

When I think of WW combined with empathy and backfire, I think of it as a game aof chess. If I cast backfire on a caster and then WW's, it doesn't leave a caster with much of an option. If I then tack on empathy/spirit shackles or even, dare I say it... soul barbs! Oooh, the dmg and the caster will be utterly useless, useless! Mwahahaha!!!

.... o_o Sorry for the rant there, I'm a big drama fan.

Anyways, any pro will tell you that the key to winning is GW is controlling one's movement or choices and this, I think, is a excellent strategy. Go ahead, you can argue all you want but I'm sticking to my guns like bear on honey. =D

Esuna · Feb 18, 2006, 01:35 AM // 01:35

Normally with my mesmer, I don't focus on "damage" but moreso disruption. You'd almost always have your "nukers" and your "SS/MM necro" doing the buttload of damage - things normally die before I finish casting a backfire. Also, a mesmer is very different from other classes - you should get to know your enemies before you set your skill bar, there's never a set-in-stone skill bar for a mesmer.

What might help you fill those slots though is asking yourself what will you need:

Hex removal
Enchant removal
Interrupts/Shutdowns
Melee/ranged-typed mobs?
Energy management
Res spell/sig

Sometimes you'd want to double up on any of the above with the exception of your res type.

Hope that helps. Sorry, I don't know how to answer what spells to bring for a Me/N though since I've never played a Me/N in PvE - my mesmer is a Me/E. Although, I think with fast casting, curses is a really nice line to play. Stuff like shadow of fear, enfeebling flood would be awesome for melee heavy mobs, considering that normally these spells have a 2s cast time. With fast casting, it's much more bearable

Avarre · Feb 18, 2006, 06:15 AM // 06:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightow

When I think of WW combined with empathy and backfire, I think of it as a game aof chess. If I cast backfire on a caster and then WW's, it doesn't leave a caster with much of an option. If I then tack on empathy/spirit shackles or even, dare I say it... soul barbs! Oooh, the dmg and the caster will be utterly useless, useless! Mwahahaha!!!

Yes, but the thing to remember is that mobs continually attack/cast regardless of hexes, so trying to force an option with WW is redundant

I'm not so much giving a 'empathy is better than WW' talk (well, it is

) but rather comparing WW to a basic starting skill as a control value. The other problem is that 16dam/s is pretty similar to my staff damage... only WW needs energy. Considering I leave bosses for last, I prefer to bog them down under empathy + other damage hexes and let them tear themselves apart.

Quote:

Stuff like shadow of fear, enfeebling flood would be awesome for melee heavy mobs,

Mantra of Recovery
Enfeebling blood
Empathy

GG PvE tombs