Curse

fatboyslimerr · Jun 21, 2006, 05:25 PM // 17:25

In the chaotic world of boon prot shutdown (my personal favourite kind) there are a few skills which are guarenteed a place on your skill bar like diversion and drain enchantment - which is kind of indirect shutdown.
Many people consider energy denial as a form of shutdown and so some people also include skills such as energy burn and energy surge in their shutdown mesmer's skill bar. I agree with this to an extend but not enough to use e-surge as my elite.

At the moment (in GvG) I use expel hexes as elite and power drain for energy management (along with drain enchant obviously). Now if I was the only mesmer on a team that would require my ability for almost complete shutdown of a monk target (or possibly partial shutdown of 2). So I've already got diversion/expel hexes/drain enchant/power drain and I take a hard res also (resurrection chant). Thats 5 skills already gone with only a marginal shutdown potential. So the last 3 skills really need to count.

I like to think one way, certainly, of not shutdowning down but reducing a boon prots effectiveness is enchant removal (thus the drain enchant) but its not always guarenteed to remove divine boon (which is your target enchantment) with the increased use of mantra of recall and channelling. So I like to use Shatter Enchant (to join in spiking too) to not only cause damage but to guarentee to remove the cover enchantment so drain enchant removes boon (then diversion the recast of boon might be a good plan) ... 2 skills left.

I like using distortion because I use savants armor plus I'm pretty squishy as a mesmer so a temporary evade gives me enough time to run into range of monk to diversion/enchant remove then retreat back into range of my monkies. Sometimes I replace distortion with Shame but Shame can so easily be CoPed. So we only have 1 skill left in which to apply additional shutdown.

Energy burn causes foe to lose 8 energy and causes 80 damage, nice for additional damage and the e-denial and recharge isn't too bad, plus as I mentioned earlier provides a type of shutdown my reducing foes energy and so limited their actions. Feedback removes an enchantment (which I quite like doing if you haven't already guessed) and also causes foe to lose 8-9 energy depending on inspiration points.

So my, rather long winded, long winded question is, with the majority of my skill bar already spoken for, which is likely to have the better, or more shutdownish affect... feedback or energy burn ?
I'd enjoy any long winded answers about continual enchant removal to deny use of CoP then spamming the crap out of shame and similar nasty hexes to which CoP is their nemesis

holden · Jun 21, 2006, 05:56 PM // 17:56

don't forget about inspired enchantment. it's a nice replacement for the expensive shatter.

the 30 second cooldown for feedback makes it ideal for a glyph mesmer imo.

you really take chant into gvg? it would be nice to free that spot up. i'd trust my monks, drop distortion, and keep out of illusion all together.

the nasty part of it is you may have 2 enchantments over boon. reversal/gaurdian and Mor

Pick Me · Jun 21, 2006, 06:51 PM // 18:51

I wish I could give you a long winded answer, but I don't like to be long winded.

I'm not to familar with Feedback, so if it is in Inspiration or Domination (which I assume you have points into both), the question becomes which is better? Do you use Energy Burn first? This causes damage and ensures that 8 energy is removed. Or would you rather remove an enchantment first? Since energy denial is your goal (along with enchantment removal being a close 2nd), lets look at your skills.

Power Drain
Diversion
Expel Hexes (e)
Drain Enchantment
Resurrect Spell (rebirth, ressurect, vengeance, etc.

)
Shatter Enchantment
Channelling/Mantra of Recall/Diversion/Shame

Feedback has a recharge time of 30 seconds. Energy Burn (domination) has a recharge time of 20 seconds.

I would use Feedback, it removes an enchantment, and then removes some energy. If the target has no energy, Energy Burn is useless.

Here is a question though, why didn't you think about:

Power Leak
Guilt is good vs offensive spellcasters (like necros)
Ancestor's Visage
Hex Eater Signet
Archane Echo

These would be good to gain energy, or to steal energy.

hoppythebunny · Jun 21, 2006, 07:41 PM // 19:41

ehm its only an idea maybe put in lyssa's balance, the monk will often have more enchantments on him then you.
And about power drain, I really like that skill as energy management but I prefer to lock down a monk with shame or steal it. I would take this skills whit me:

shame
diversion
expel hexes {e}
drain enchantment
lyssa's balance
arcane thievery
hex breaker/unnatural
ressurect

I hope its any help (and I hope its good)
grzzzzz

holden · Jun 21, 2006, 07:49 PM // 19:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pick Me

Here is a question though, why didn't you think about:

Power Leak
Guilt is good vs offensive spellcasters (like necros)
Ancestor's Visage
Hex Eater Signet
Archane Echo

These would be good to gain energy, or to steal energy.

visage is from the illusion line
hex eater has a 45 second cooldown
guilt is not as fine as shame and he's worried about cop ridding shame/guilt from his foe
i'm not sure what arcane echo would do for you as far as energy mgmt. nothing really. it's expensive.
i like power leak but it's hard as hell to interrupt a boon prot monk.

Pick Me · Jun 21, 2006, 08:14 PM // 20:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by holden

visage is from the illusion line
hex eater has a 45 second cooldown
guilt is not as fine as shame and he's worried about cop ridding shame/guilt from his foe
i'm not sure what arcane echo would do for you as far as energy mgmt. nothing really. it's expensive.
i like power leak but it's hard as hell to interrupt a boon prot monk.

Visage is from Illusion, but it at least starts to drop energy from anyone attacking you. So why not start to drain other people while you concentrate on your main target.

Hex eater costs less and adjacent allies also get their hexes removed.

Guilt is for offensive spellcasters, since CoP is a skill, and so quick, I wouldn't worry about hexes being removed by it. Remember, CoP works if the monk has enchantments, 0 enchantments means nothing.

Archane Echo will copy whatever spell you cast, so if you don't like the other options, why not have two of the ones you do like.

Basically, any spell that is very quick is hard to interupt. But at least you have it.

holden · Jun 21, 2006, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pick Me

Visage is from Illusion, but it at least starts to drop energy from anyone attacking you. So why not start to drain other people while you concentrate on your main target.

it would be better if you were running illusion. but he's got dom and inspiration. it would be a shame to spread yourself too thin.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pick Me

Hex eater costs less and adjacent allies also get their hexes removed.

it's cheap for sure but it's a touch skill and that can lead to trouble, getting too close to the nasties and drawing attention to yourself. the 45 second cooldown really ruins it for me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pick Me

Guilt is for offensive spellcasters, since CoP is a skill, and so quick, I wouldn't worry about hexes being removed by it. Remember, CoP works if the monk has enchantments, 0 enchantments means nothing.

shutting down an ele isn't very difficult. they'll almost do it to themselves. it's the pesky boon prot the OP wants to shut down. shame would be a better choice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pick Me

Archane Echo will copy whatever spell you cast, so if you don't like the other options, why not have two of the ones you do like.

yes but it's a high price at 15 energy. if that's the way you wanted to run your build glyph of renewal from the ele line or even echo would be a much better choice.

imo the best option for a mesmer in gvg is a mesmer/ele using glyph of renewal. i agree, why not have two.

fatboyslimerr · Jun 21, 2006, 10:28 PM // 22:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by holden

don't forget about inspired enchantment. it's a nice replacement for the expensive shatter.

the 30 second cooldown for feedback makes it ideal for a glyph mesmer imo.

you really take chant into gvg? it would be nice to free that spot up. i'd trust my monks, drop distortion, and keep out of illusion all together.

the nasty part of it is you may have 2 enchantments over boon. reversal/gaurdian and Mor

Inspired is good but I like the damage from shatter enchant, its well worth the energy and vital to remove prot spirit during a spike.

I like Chant or Resurrect or some form of hard res, and a lot of people say lose distortion but its too good imo. I need it to stay alive in those few seconds I need to be in range of enemy monks plus if enemy warriors try to spike me. Its too important to lose imo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pick Me

Here is a question though, why didn't you think about:

Power Leak <-- not enough interruptable spells, must be able to P-Drain.
Guilt is good vs offensive spellcasters (like necros) <-- not an offense shutdown mesmer
Ancestor's Visage <-- not warrior hate mesmer
Hex Eater Signet <-- crap imo, because of recharge
Archane Echo <-- too expensive, long recharge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoppythebunny

ehm its only an idea maybe put in lyssa's balance, the monk will often have more enchantments on him then you.
And about power drain, I really like that skill as energy management but I prefer to lock down a monk with shame or steal it. I would take this skills whit me:

shame
diversion
expel hexes {e}
drain enchantment
lyssa's balance
arcane thievery
hex breaker/unnatural
ressurect

I hope its any help (and I hope its good)
grzzzzz

I don't think simple enchant remove on its own is worth it even though lyssa's has a nice recharge and only costs 5. I'm still keeping distortion and not using shame and I've considered arcane thievery but have been convinced by a guildie that its not worth it.

Thanks for your thoughts, keep 'em coming

Themis · Jun 21, 2006, 11:26 PM // 23:26

Against boon prots, roughly every minute :

Feedback removes 2 enchantments (forcing monks to re-apply them) and denies 8-9 energy each time. Most of the time, you'll be removing the Mantra, so the energy will be effectively removed. Total loss : 26-28 energy. And a mess with the main energy management skill (the mantra).

Energy burn will cause 24 energy loss (IF available) and deal 240 damage (IF the energy is available). Recovery from the damage will cost the Monk at least 7-14 energy. So you deny 14-38 energy (average 26).

So they are about equally "shutdownish". Feedback has a guaranteed denial, but e-Burn CAN have a higher throughtput.

fatboyslimerr · Jun 22, 2006, 08:15 AM // 08:15

Shutdownish should be a word.
Its usually mantra of recall I try to interrupt because if I do interrupt it they lose 10 energy which is super and no energy management for them. I see feedback as perhaps the only counter to MoRecall if they do cast it because recall gives them +13 energy, -8 = +5 which isn't even enough for one RoF (with boon on).

I too like the guarenteed denial qualities of feedback, since e-burn is fairly conditional on them having any energy in the first place to do damage.

Themis · Jun 22, 2006, 01:21 PM // 13:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatboyslimerr

I too like the guarenteed denial qualities of feedback, since e-burn is fairly conditional on them having any energy in the first place to do damage.

/agree

whatnow? · Jul 07, 2006, 09:05 PM // 21:05

i like using one then the other, following up with shame and diversion and /laughing at the monk i am targeting.