Curse

Avarre · Jun 05, 2006, 01:43 AM // 01:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

I really can't be arsed anymore.... it seems Avarre has taken his leave from this thread. There is just no point debating a skills use with someone quite so stubborn.

I'd rather spend my time upping my master cartographer titles than debate with a wall and end up creating another huge thread, which all Eaimirth threads become because of his inability to change his stance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella

You know; if you had powerblock they wouldn't have the choice of either A. Hex Removal, or B. Casting through it. They only would have choice C. Taking alot of damage when EP ends

I now present a summary of this entire thread:

'Omg power return is better than my bishie power block, don't use return! Here is lots of math showing why if an enemy that just casts without aiming to spike or anything tactical is fought with power return, it will kill your team by making the enemy get +3 net!'

As I usually say in these cases.... best thread evarrr!!

Sab · Jun 05, 2006, 03:23 AM // 03:23

EE: I don't know why you're talking about net energy gain/loss as it's completely irrelevant to the subject at hand.

Take, for instance, one of your favourite skills - Blackout. When you use it, you're 10 energy down, possibly in a bad location (due to it's touch range) and your skills are blacked out. This is just as bad, if not worse than your opponent's situation. By your logic, you'd never use this skill because there are other skills out there which don't leave you in such a bad position. Of course that's not true. The point here is - Blackout is worth it when you use it at the right time, like coordinating with a spike by blacking-out an enemy monk. Same deal with Power Return, you need to know when to use it. You do not use it to interrupt low cost or low recharge spells as there are other spells (not limited to interrupts) which can achieve shutdown better than Power Return. No, you use it in situations where you opponent's energy is not an issue, where the spell has a long recharge and the act of interrupting is all that matters.

Take, for example, a full-health Ele casting a Deep Freeze, what interrupt are you going to use? Power Spike? The Ele is at full health, 100 damage is inconsequential unless the rest of your team is focused on this target. Power Leak? Energy storage = GG. Power Block? A complete waste of a 30 second recharge skill. If you're going to be bringing that, use it on a higher-priority opponent like a monk. How about Power Return? Cheap, quick recharge interrupt that gets the job done, at 5 energy less than its closest competitor, Power Spike.

And for the record, Power Spike has a 12 second recharge, 5 seconds more than Power Return.

Eaimirth Etaivella · Jun 05, 2006, 05:21 AM // 05:21

Screw it; just going to let the thread rot/burn/die/whatever.

I will be waiting to see some build surface using this skill, or some top guild use the skill at all for that matter. Until then; ttyl. Think I will go map as well, only 1.5% to go anyway.

Sacho · Jun 05, 2006, 05:33 AM // 05:33

Well, in such a case, you would actually use a big punishing interrupt - *if* it is available. Nothing matches power return's availability, and again, it doesn't require many points spent in fast casting, as its main effect is the interruption, not the punishment after. In a build already geared with alot of interrupts, it won't be very useful - since you'd often have an interrupt ready to use. But that's *not* where you'd use it, since its main strength is that it's spammable only as one skill, whereas if you want to interrupt constantly with the other interrupts, you'd have to bring at least 2-3.

Also, the comparison between power block and power return was at its core, again flawed, as power block is an elite, and power return is not. Comparing it to the closest, power spike:

Power spike costs 10e, Power return costs 5e.

Power spike is 12s recharge, Power return is 7s.

Power spike deals 107 damage with 16 dom.

At 5 FC power return returns 8e.

The energy "balance":
In 84 seconds, for 70 energy, power spike can land 7 interrupts, doing 749 damage. For 5e spells, it would have drained 35 energy. For 10e spells, it would have drained 70 energy.
In 84 seconds, for 60 energy, power return can land 12 interrupts, returning 96 energy. For 5e spells, it would have drained 60 energy. For 10e spells, it would have drained 120.

On paper, power return looks bad, indeed.

However, it has two significant points for it - you don't have to spec for it to use it, and again, it can be used much more often than even power spike.

Why is that good? I already said it. Consistent interrupts. You can't really judge consistent interrupts until you've tried to execute a strategy, only to have half your spells being interrupted.

fatboyslimerr · Jun 05, 2006, 11:12 AM // 11:12

I'll throw at you all this build I spent a long time creating with my mate whos a damned good boon prot and a pro focus swapper. It basically focuses around having high FC (about 14) and using mantra of recovery and power return as well as diversion (and wastrel's worry and shame but these aren't really neccessary). You should instantly think, yay I've got an interrupt with a 3.5 second recharge. My mate says e-denial doesn't worry him because he can just focus swap out of it and hide his energy by using a sword lol. He did say, as a boon prot, he's very frightened of diversion. This build then focuses on spamming diversion, (and WW, so just to see if he's paying attention, if he's not then he'll RoF disabling it for 50+ seconds) then interrupting his hex removal with power return, then casting shame again, so it can be CoP. Then getting diversion in there quickly so it either gets divine boon or RoF, but if nothing else it repeats this process, making him hesitate to do anything. This build relies on power return to interrupt hex removal of shame (or his e-management just to piss him off). My mate says power return is more effective than power spike as the damage will likely get healed and not cause much of a problem (also if only taking one interrupt, PS is costly when used with MoR), power block does worry him but diversion scares him shitless.

Another tactic using the same skills is to drain enchant, followed by diversion (so he won't CoP diversion either because he isn't enchanted or because he doesn't want to get it diverted, he'll just wait it out so you could use WW) then he'll need to recast boon, so cast shame in there quickly if you can, so boon gets interrupted, then diversion again, power returning when needed. This build doesn't focus on interrupting or needing power return, but it complements MoR + power return to make a super fast recharing interrupt which can be used for many purposes (interrupting martyr or just annoying a hex spammer) and limiting his choices. I realise hexes can be removed by his team mates so this is why I would use WW on top of diversion. Shame doesn't need to trigger but it will at least stop them long enough for diversion to recharge before it gets removed. This would complement a water snarer in your team, as water hexes don't really do damage but are great snares and wouldn't really be used on the target your trying to take down, meaning dwaynas kiss wouldn't be a problem (it heals huge amounts on a hexed target due to recent buff).

I think EE, just wants to point out his unique way of thinking, no one is wrong but you just want to join the band wagon against EE by really exploiting his examples, which he didn't write in enough detail for heavy criticism. Just my opinion

This is just one example where power return would work well in a build. Bear in mind it could continual interrupt pretty much anyone while your team pressures monks or someone. Say your getting heavily hexed, warriors could pressure monks while you annoy hex spammer. I dunno pick out flaws..no ones perfect

Evilsod · Jun 05, 2006, 01:11 PM // 13:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

I'd rather spend my time upping my master cartographer titles than debate with a wall and end up creating another huge thread, which all Eaimirth threads become because of his inability to change his stance.

Sadly i already have 100% exploration on my Ranger and i don't have Factions.... i could revise instead.... but thats just dull

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

I now present a summary of this entire thread:

'Omg power return is better than my bishie power block, don't use return! Here is lots of math showing why if an enemy that just casts without aiming to spike or anything tactical is fought with power return, it will kill your team by making the enemy get +3 net!'

As I usually say in these cases.... best thread evarrr!!

Hehe, you may be right. If i could be arsed i'd check through this entire thread and see if 1 post EE has made doesn't have Power Block mentioned in it somewhere.

I think Sacho has another winner here, someone may be slightly too stubborn to take it into account though, that or mention Power Block

Congratulations, its taken you... how long? About 5 days to finally notice that Power Return probably wouldn't have FC at lvl12 or higher. 1 thing i'd like to know though, knocking out an attribute for 15 seconds? Surely its 16? If thats the case then Power Spike is only doing 100 (i dunno if thats exact number for it).

Also how exactly do you suggest that by casting Power Block on the Ele:

Quote:

You know; if you had powerblock they wouldn't have the choice of either A. Hex Removal, or B. Casting through it. They only would have choice C. Taking alot of damage when EP ends. AL lasts for what? 7 seconds? Recharge on it is 15 seconds? Wow...same ratio as powerblock; and I'm even rounding up for you. But this isn't a thread of PB vs AL, this is a thread to determine if Power Return is a valid skill or not *points at math above*

Last time i checked they didn't carry Hex Removal anyway, even if they did, why would they waste there time removing it? And casting through it? I'm sorry but you posted that they carry 3 attributes earlier. So what? Your gonna Power Block Air? They can spam Party, interrupt it or not they still lose 15 energy (or Power Return it and they gain some back, leaving em worse off

) Or they can still spam Blinding Flash. Both 15 energy cost. Not to mention that they could simply spam Heal Party and cancel it off after 0.5 seconds over and over reducing there energy to 0 in no time.

I'm sorry i didn't realise you were still debating if Power Return was a good skill, i thought this was the Power Block appreciation thread. I merely mentioned AL to make 1 point, you've been mentioning PB the entire thread in a direct comparison with the non-elite Power Return. Either stop mentioning Power Block COMPLETELY or start comparing it to Power Leech, its your choice.

Do you mind posting us a picture of your shrine? I want to see if it really does PB justice.

Themis · Jun 05, 2006, 02:25 PM // 14:25

Another idea : Power Retun would also combine well with MoR, isn't it ? Same attribute, doubles availability

Perhaps someone has already proposed this, hard to find in this dedealous thread...

Fatboyslimerr, probably must have noticed it

fatboyslimerr · Jun 05, 2006, 03:53 PM // 15:53

16 fast casting ftw !!! lol nice idea but highly impractical. I wonder if anyone could possibly have anything more to say about our beloved power return ??
Perhaps a build using arcane echo + arcane mimicry to echo power block while using MoR to spam power return. I am of course being stupid

Laugh at your leisure

Evilsod · Jun 05, 2006, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Impractical means nothing when the build does what it was designed for. 16 Fast Casting, 13 Inspiration (seriously im thinking of this in 10 seconds). Mantra of Recovery and Power Return (what is it, 2 or 3 energy?) at a 3.5s recharge with Power Drain for energy management meets interrupt a res signet.... and 4 other skills. Spirit Shackles? Spirit of Failure? Inspired xxx. Ethereal Burden (or is that Illusion?). The possibilty/stupidity is endless

If only i had factions... i'd be in RA messing around with that build now.

fatboyslimerr · Jun 06, 2006, 07:51 AM // 07:51

I don't think it would work well in RA, only well coordinated GvG. Used it last night basically diversioning a monk constantly and interrupting every diversion/backfire enemy mesmer did as well as the evil dwaynas kiss (that was a priority interrupt), it was great fun. I currently use
14 FC
12 Domination
9 Inspiration

its nice because E-Tap gets off in under a second, MoR lasts for 19 seconds but power return still gives back 5 energy to foe.

pigdestroyer · Jun 06, 2006, 08:37 AM // 08:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella

CoP/CoP/CoP/CoP

MoR/lyssas balance/drain enchant

Brother Foon Sped · Jun 08, 2006, 02:23 PM // 14:23

I've been enjoying this discussion. I found this build and thought that I'd post it as it is relevant. It is an excellent application of power return.

The synergy is with "wither" and Power Return. Wither a very long duration of 29 seconds of -4 health deg and - 2 energy deg BUT ends if the person runs out of energy. Power returen is a semi spamable interrupt that in most cases will keep the caster with at least some energy and keep wither going.

http://www.curse-gaming.com/en/guildwars/build-226.html

P.S. I also enjoy this sites build creator feature, check it out.

fatboyslimerr · Jun 08, 2006, 02:53 PM // 14:53

Nice build, nice site, good job Brother Foon Sped. I've bin looking at a wither build for awhile now, and yours makes great use of power return. Although I'm not very fond of the ... of failure combo, the rest of your skills are super. I would perhaps replace spirit of failure for well of weariness and price of failure for possibly ether lord or malaise (neither of these skills are ideal but they can both do the job of energy degen).

Its a nice try to combined warrior management with e-denial but, like almost everyone says these days, its not a good idea to split your build's purpose too much. I would stick with e-degen and I would take: (although your skills are fine, this is just my personal preference although you wanna think about well of weariness)

Wither {E}
Parasitic Bond
Power Return
Well of Weariness
Ether Lord/Malaise/IoR -- whatever you feel like basically --
Distortion
Drain Enchant/P. Drain
Res

One option is to boost illusion and take more degen, possibly images of remorse, to accompany wither but distortion is a good idea for sure.

Again, good work Brother Foon Sped

Brother Foon Sped · Jun 08, 2006, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Thanks my man. I can only say that I "happened" upon the site and the build. The build is not of my making.

I did try it out and it does seem like it's spread a bit thin. I did ok when I was left alone. I did mess another mesmer up one time good. Love it when you hit their ether feast.

As far as the spirit of F and the price of failure combo I'm unclear as to how well they stack in regards to a warriors chance to miss. I was dissapointed by the amount of energy I was getting back on this as well as it being a defense for myself.

Parasitic bond at that level of curses, though serving as both a cover and a heal, really wasn't as good a heal as etherfeast.

fatboyslimerr · Jun 08, 2006, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Parasitic Bond is more importantly a cover, don't think about taking a skill just to heal (for PvP) because your monks should be doing that. The advantage of parasitic bond is that it gives you a heal as a bonus.

Spirit/Price do stack so a warrior has a 50% chance to miss but its 2 skills to do what blurred vision could do in one (think team work again). Although spirit/price + distortion is a good combo if that warrior is attacking you. 50% chance + 75% chance

Gonna be capping Wither later

Evilsod · Jun 08, 2006, 07:56 PM // 19:56

I'd say take Malaise personally and scrapping Well of Weariness. Simply giving a caster 0 regen and if they are unlucky, leaving them with 2 Energy, incapable to do anything.

Of course, Focus Swapping makes both of those skills rather useless. Simply switch off, giving yourself as little energy as possible, cancels off Wither/Malaise and switch back and carry on.

fatboyslimerr · Jun 08, 2006, 11:40 PM // 23:40

This is why I like diversion, for that exact reason but lets not go into detail .... I think wither is still an option because if they focus swap before 0 energy, they'll still have wither on them and it will last its full duration rather than ending when foe reaches 0 energy, and if you degen their alternate focus/wand stuff then they got nothing left

Still need to try it though, see how well it works.
Don't write off well of weariness though, it lasts for ages and is good corpse control.

corrupted bloodline · Jun 09, 2006, 07:21 PM // 19:21

To the OP:

If you can't see the value of interrupting a key spell with Power Return, I wonder why you even bother playing a mesmer. Interrupting isn't necessarily about quantity, it's a bout quality (i.e. spell selection). You spoke of interrupting things like Flare and Blinding Flash. Why the hell would you bother interrupting these low-recharge spells with Power Return? As many people before me have said, pick and choose the right spells at the right times to interrupt (i.e. high recharge, high cost, energy management spells, etc.). I know this thread is a dead horse and I'm just kicking it, but I was so annoyed by the sheer short-sightedness of the OP that I had to post.

Evilsod · Jun 10, 2006, 10:51 AM // 10:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatboyslimerr

This is why I like diversion, for that exact reason but lets not go into detail .... I think wither is still an option because if they focus swap before 0 energy, they'll still have wither on them and it will last its full duration rather than ending when foe reaches 0 energy, and if you degen their alternate focus/wand stuff then they got nothing left

Still need to try it though, see how well it works.
Don't write off well of weariness though, it lasts for ages and is good corpse control.

'Wither ends if target foes energy reaches 0.'

All the monk needs to do (i had the wrong idea for this too) is switch his focus on, cast a spell, switch back. He gets -3 energy, Wither ends and he has to regen a bit. If he needs to cast a spell there and then, switch back to his focus, cast, switch back and wait for some more regen. Aslong as Wither (not Malaise since it aint elite) has ends on 0 energy its really not gonna do anything.
The only skills that can really help there are Power Leak (since they will have to have there focus on, leaving em with a BIG minus energy), and Mind Wrack to make em take 95 damage whenever they do focus swap.

Yeah i forgot Well of Weariness has an absolutely ridiculous duration, somet like 50 seconds at lvl12 Curses isnt it?

fatboyslimerr · Jun 10, 2006, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Aye, its still pretty long even with low curses.

If I use Wither, I would use diversion straight after, so monk starts to lose energy, focus swaps (maybe use mind wrack too) but he'll have diversion on him which he won't CoP for obvious reasons. Firstly this protects wither (at least from some hex removal, which is why mink wrack is an idea also) but also limits his choice of skills to cast after focus swapping, as in whatever he casts will get disabled for like 50 seconds. I would consider using power return in the same build, to interrupt monks own hex removal of diversion, since things like inspired/revealed hex are easy to interrupt and give energy back to them to prolong the length of wither.

I'm just deciding if wither could ever replace mantra of recovery on my mesmer. MoR + power return really are a great combo + diversion every 5 seconds. Great stuff