Curse

Eaimirth Etaivella · Jun 01, 2006, 04:03 AM // 04:03

I know it has a fast recharge.
I know it is affected by MoR.
I know it costs 5 energy; just like the inspiration magic interrupts.
I know it is fast casting attribute based.

What I don't know is why it has to suck. Yea maybe if it "returned" the energy back to the mesmer then it would be useful. I still don't see a whole lot of use of this spell though;
"I interrupted your flare!"~mesmer
"Ohh scarry I will just cast it again and you are down 5 energy."~ele
"...damn"~mesmer

I know flare isn't a viable skill; but lets take a look of many of the current "best" skills to use. All of them have fast cast times and fast recharges; obsidian flame, woh, blinding flash, lightning orb...all of these have fast recharges so energy return won't do jack squat.

Say best case scenario; you interrupt a lightning orb on a fast cast nuker with duel attunements. They lose 15 energy due to the cost of the spell; but you lose 5 to your cost, then they gain 5 from your interrupt.
Net:
You down 5
They are down 10
Thats best case; however...we could use our other "fast recharge all purpose interrupt" savage shot...
Net:
You down 5
They are down 15 and 80 damage to the face

Worst case scenario; you interrupt and they don't care. Far too numerous to count really. Monks will simply recast due to fast rc, necros will call it a draw (net energy loss of both players 5, but they have soul reaping as their primary), eles ...well they simply won't care.

Yea its not affected by MoR; but I don't see this skill being used by that build anyway. Savage still interrupts non-conditionally and all skills; no matter what. This only interrupts spells; interrupts only if they are casting a spell; and punishes you for doing so.

Some say it has uses in pve as enamies have limitless energy. I still stand by my saying of "block it or kill it" simply saying either powerblock it to stop it from casting at all; or kill it so it is no longer an issue. Personally I think killing it is the better of the two; but ohh well. In this case we compare the skill to powerspike, cry of frustration...which both cast this spell into the abyss in terms of pve use. Savage shot remains more powerful than this skill; as it can even be used as a spike skill regardless of interrupting at all.

I simply do not see a use for this skill...if it gave you back the energy for countering then it would be viable. I know I would use it; would even throw it into a couple of my builds. That or make it "useful"; give it a unconditional interrupt, and return the energy to the interrupter and interruptee...Yet as it stands now it only punishes the mesmer that carries the spell.

Sab · Jun 01, 2006, 05:11 AM // 05:11

Key word: interrupt. Power Return's sole purpose is to do just that, and to do that cheaply (5 energy cost) and repeatedly (7 sec recharge). It's not a "utility" interrupt, like causing damage (Power Spike) or draining your opponent of energy (Power Leak), the use of Power Return is to simply interrupt.

Why is that useful? To make your opponent suffer the recharge of the spell you interrupted without getting the spell off. With Power Return, as I mentioned before, you can do that cheaply and repeatedly, which is not possible with any other Mesmer interrupt. The closest to a spammable interrupt (other than Power Return) is Power Spike, but that's twice the cost and twice the recharge.

"Block it or kill it" isn't much of a solution. First, using Power Block means you have to sacrifice your elite slot, and requires that you spec into Domination. In some situations this isn't possible, not to mention that Power Block carries a hefty recharge, and that mobs may use skills from different attribute lines (e.g. Lightning Orb and Lava Arrows on Afflicted Eles). "Killing it" goes without saying. If simply killing things was a viable replacement for interrupting, then there's not much point in this discussion.

The thing is, the simple act of interrupting reduces the amount of harm done to your party. Any additional utility to the interrupt, such as damage, or e-denial, or disabling certain skills, is just a bonus.

Eaimirth Etaivella · Jun 01, 2006, 05:24 AM // 05:24

Still doesn't touch the fact that savage shot owns this skill to eternity and back =/

Avarre · Jun 01, 2006, 05:38 AM // 05:38

Give savage shot a <1/4 fire time and a 0s flight time, the ability to go through walls and recharge in <7 seconds and you'll be right.

Also the fact that savage shot is a ranger skill. It shouldn't even be taken into account because you can't use it effectively on a mesmer. This makes two of your discussions based on 'this mesmer skill is bad because theres a ranger skill I think is better'.

Eaimirth Etaivella · Jun 01, 2006, 06:53 AM // 06:53

With a composite bow, fw and rtw it does fly with a 0 sec flight time; that or close enough to interrupt 3/4th sec spells which is good enough for any mesmer spell comparison as no one has reflexes good enough to interrupt 1/4th sec spells. Also savage shot had a recharge of 5 seconds the last time I checked, which is more than I can say for this spell. Just interesting considering that mesmers are the "interrupting masters" so I find it humorous that a "inferior" interrupting class has a far superier interrupt.

Dragannia · Jun 01, 2006, 07:18 AM // 07:18

A Ranger interrupter is much more efficient than a Mesmer. They can interrupt more. But a Mesmer interrupter has the added benefit of being able to kill or severely hamper their target, as well as interrupting. The way I see it, Power Return is simply an interrupt to use while Spike is recharging.

Avarre · Jun 01, 2006, 07:31 AM // 07:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella

With a composite bow, fw and rtw it does fly with a 0 sec flight time; that or close enough to interrupt 3/4th sec spells which is good enough for any mesmer spell comparison as no one has reflexes good enough to interrupt 1/4th sec spells. Also savage shot had a recharge of 5 seconds the last time I checked, which is more than I can say for this spell. Just interesting considering that mesmers are the "interrupting masters" so I find it humorous that a "inferior" interrupting class has a far superier interrupt.

Good job EE, you proved savage shot is pretty much as good as power return with not only 2 supporting skills, but also a ranger weapon. That even tops the 'SQ is better than MoR because you can bring echo and still get less bonus' argument.

We're talking about mesmers. Power return is a functional interrupt that only takes up 1 space, is cheap, with fast recharge. Your savage shot parallel is 3 slots for a ranger. Return is the kind of interrupt you can use constantly on a target, which is helpful in most situations, especially as you can bring one of the longer recharge interrupts as well.

Renegade ++RIP++ · Jun 01, 2006, 07:42 AM // 07:42

just make power return able to interrupt an action be this casting a spell or using a skill or simply attacking..., now that would be usefull and not to powerfull since they are gaining energy every tim they do get interrupted and rcv no dmg or any other negative condition except the possible rechargetime of their skill. Which would make it ideal as a last resort interrupt.

Keats · Jun 01, 2006, 08:10 AM // 08:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella

I know it has a fast recharge.
I know it is affected by MoR.
I know it costs 5 energy; just like the inspiration magic interrupts.
I know it is fast casting attribute based.

What I don't know is why it has to suck. Yea maybe if it "returned" the energy back to the mesmer then it would be useful. I still don't see a whole lot of use of this spell though;
"I interrupted your flare!"~mesmer
"Ohh scarry I will just cast it again and you are down 5 energy."~ele
"...damn"~mesmer

I know flare isn't a viable skill; but lets take a look of many of the current "best" skills to use. All of them have fast cast times and fast recharges; obsidian flame, woh, blinding flash, lightning orb...all of these have fast recharges so energy return won't do jack squat.

Say best case scenario; you interrupt a lightning orb on a fast cast nuker with duel attunements. They lose 15 energy due to the cost of the spell; but you lose 5 to your cost, then they gain 5 from your interrupt.
Net:
You down 5
They are down 10
Thats best case; however...we could use our other "fast recharge all purpose interrupt" savage shot...
Net:
You down 5
They are down 15 and 80 damage to the face

Worst case scenario; you interrupt and they don't care. Far too numerous to count really. Monks will simply recast due to fast rc, necros will call it a draw (net energy loss of both players 5, but they have soul reaping as their primary), eles ...well they simply won't care.

Yea its not affected by MoR; but I don't see this skill being used by that build anyway. Savage still interrupts non-conditionally and all skills; no matter what. This only interrupts spells; interrupts only if they are casting a spell; and punishes you for doing so.

Some say it has uses in pve as enamies have limitless energy. I still stand by my saying of "block it or kill it" simply saying either powerblock it to stop it from casting at all; or kill it so it is no longer an issue. Personally I think killing it is the better of the two; but ohh well. In this case we compare the skill to powerspike, cry of frustration...which both cast this spell into the abyss in terms of pve use. Savage shot remains more powerful than this skill; as it can even be used as a spike skill regardless of interrupting at all.

I simply do not see a use for this skill...if it gave you back the energy for countering then it would be viable. I know I would use it; would even throw it into a couple of my builds. That or make it "useful"; give it a unconditional interrupt, and return the energy to the interrupter and interruptee...Yet as it stands now it only punishes the mesmer that carries the spell.

if power return interrupts the one woh that would determine life or death of the current offense target because it is available and the 5e are available, why should that be not an incredible skill?

if power return interrupts the 100+ damage spell that would determine whether a mate lives or dies because it is again available and the 5e are again available, why should that be not an incredible skill?

for sure, mesmer interrupt business is by far the most difficult one imo since it's you to decide when to interrupt what to interrupt and which interrupt to use.

Peace.

fatboyslimerr · Jun 01, 2006, 08:30 AM // 08:30

Y'all arguing interesting points. I would still never use power return simply because there is such a thing as renewal power leaking

. If they made power return be more like this:
Your target's current action is interrupted, if that action was a spell you both gain 5 energy, it was a skill you lose 5 energy and your target gains 5.

Making this almost as good as cry of frustation (except without the AoE) costing 10e for a skill interrupt. As far as spell interrupting, it has no negative affect on your target (they actually gain 5 energy) and is truly spamable by you. As it is now I just don't think its worth it. All my efforts using power leak etc would be wasted if I kept giving them back their energy, but it would be more useful if it sustained itself and interrupted skills too.

Echo SQ ftw

Hella Good · Jun 01, 2006, 11:43 AM // 11:43

It seems to me that there is better ways to interrupt, I originally though of this skill as a way to give nrg to a target that is low on nrg, so that you can then Burn/Surge it (kind of along the lines of maximizing Burn/Surge damage), but the more I think about it, the more it doesn't make much sense. I guess, if you don't want to use Domination or Inspiration it is a viable alternative but my interrupt is Domi/Inspiration, so... that doesn't help much. I wouldn't go as far as to say the skill sucks- it's still a 5nrg, 7s recharge interrupt. But I personally won't be using it, that's all.

Themis · Jun 01, 2006, 11:57 AM // 11:57

I think that Power Return is meant to be a viable answer to all these high spammable spells with low recharge :

Defensive:
Flesh of my flesh
Martyr
Life Sheath
Healing light
Warders
...

Offensive:
Minion masters’ spells
...

In other words, imo, it’s supposed to help shutting down some support characters and spells.

So, this (non-elite) spell can counter some of the oponents' strategies, or confort your own. I'm sure it can be very usefull in GvG/HA/etc but less usefull in PvE. Thus, it's more a shutdown spell than an interrupt one.

fatboyslimerr · Jun 01, 2006, 12:08 PM // 12:08

I actually think, since power leak is often too good, this could be a great interrupt to use while power leak is recharging, after having experimented with it. Say you power leak + e.burn thats -34 energy which will severely hamper a monk, but then say they try to use e-management skill like mantra of recall, but power leak is recharging and your saving cry of frustration, power return them twice or so (+10 energy) gives them about +20 energy over all, then hit them with power leak again, -26 energy

Its an idea but it would have too many skills requiring interrupts e.g. power leak, power drain then power return as well. Its an idea though but it needs some work. Anyone tried Power Leech ??, I'm thinking of buying this when I get enough faction.

Terra Xin · Jun 01, 2006, 12:13 PM // 12:13

I would use power return with e-burn/surge, but you would only do that to make sure that your e-skills do maximum damage.... Then again, I would only use this in emergencies... which is never...

Evilsod · Jun 01, 2006, 12:31 PM // 12:31

Isn't Leech an elite? Therefore you couldn't buy it

Are we talking about PvP or PvE here? In PvP giving a monk energy back is pretty useless, there is the outside chance his 1 spell that you stopped got 1 of his team killed, but the energy he just gained will probably let him cast 2 more spells. Unless of course you have all your interrupts ready (specifically Power Leak) its a good 1 to start with, you interrupt somet then drain the hell out of the next spell he goes to cast.

PvE this skill....rules imo. I've never had chance to use it since i don't have Factions, but who takes Power Leak in PvE? These things seem to have no limit to energy unless your using Sympathetic Visage. If i had a very cheap, very fast recharging skill that i can interrupt a Shadow Monk with over and over, then we win. Of course in that situation you could say the same thing about Dazed w/ Concussion Shot...

EE, just so you know, i've played a ranger for a hell of a long time. Interrupting WoH or other 3/4 cast spells is next to impossible unless you either predict it or are standing right next to them. To interrupt it you need to react to it in less than 1/6th of a second to give the arrows time to get there and still hit it. Even when standing next to them, reacting to a skill in about 0.2seconds is not something you can do regularly, i've managed it occasionally, generally if i want to shove a Concussion Shot into them, i'll wait until its cast WoH then interrupt the next spell so i don't waste energy.
If i take my mesmer there now therse a good chance that a Shadow Monk will never know what a cast spell feels like. And of course, this is 1 of those situations where Power Block = Godly since they only have 1 attribute line (not including Zealots Fire which isn't exactly any help to them).

And of course, FoW is sorta notorious for its weird terrain, walls, objects or weird glitches (like been able to stand near the wall in the Spider Cave and not get touched) are things that completely stop a ranger interrupting.

fatboyslimerr · Jun 01, 2006, 01:12 PM // 13:12

I was referring to PvP character, I would buy power leech {E} for a PvP mesmer and see if its any good, if it is I'll replace renewal with it, then power return my have a space on my skill bar. I wouldn't use an interrupter in PvE at all let a lone one using power leak, p.leaks awesomeness is only truly felt in PvP.
To be honest I just don't there is space for power return on my skill bar because all my skills are perfect as they are, especially power leak

remmeh · Jun 01, 2006, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Migraine + Cover + Power Return = shut down offensive caster in PvP.

fatboyslimerr · Jun 01, 2006, 04:04 PM // 16:04

Who needs migrane ??. Renewal + Power Leak + Power Leak + Power Drain = more shut down offensive/defensive/healing cast with no energy

I'm just thinking if power return could ever replace cry of frustration on my skill bar ???

xenoranger · Jun 01, 2006, 04:06 PM // 16:06

First, dont' knock Power Return.

Think of it this way. You have a Minion Master Animating a Golem or an elementalist casting a 25 cost skill. If you have high enough fast casting, you're essentially cheating them outta the difference. At 12, it returns like 5 energy. So.. an MM animating a vampiric horror looses 20 energy on the deal (25 casting - 5 returned). Hey look, you just interrupted and their own casting costed them.

Most interrupts have huge recharge times. So, if Power Return didn't have some inverse effect, it could be easily spammed by mesmers. Then the Mesmer Class would be over powering. At least with Power Return, you can interrupt key skills.

Think about it, who cares if you're hit with flare. Flare is like a melee attack. It's quite weak (in the grand scheme of things). But should you get hit with Meteor Shower or a more powerful skill, it's goign do not only damage you, but also those around you. It's pointless to interrupt flare. You should use Power Return to interrupt more serious skills. Although my primary character is a necro, I still use power return to interrupt the more powerful skills used by Elemenalists. Sounds silly, but if Spinal Shivers/Shivers of Dread is recharging and I notice a devastating AOE skill is being used, Power Return comes in handy. Even when returning 10 energy, if I can screw them outta 15 (on a 25 casting skill) it's worth it. Also, consider that some of the most devestating AOE skills by elementalists have long recharge times.

Casting => Interrupt => Recharge

Don't whine to me about your 30-60 sec recharge. You should've managed your skil bar better.

Eaimirth Etaivella · Jun 01, 2006, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Fundamentally the skill is flawed. You will only use it when all your other interrupts are recharging; because it is the "crappyest" of your interrupts. However in order to take advantage of its short recharge you would have to use it first; which means all your interrupts that would "harm" the enemy will not see as much use.

For taking down shadow monks; three best ways imo.
1. Powerblock like you said =p
2. Wastrels Worry->Shatter Enchantment->Power spike->Wastrel's Worry->Cry of Frustration->Energy burn
3. Have someone else do it; like an interrupt ranger with savage shot.

I just think the third option is all too used; frankly its just the best one (with exception of maybe the first one =p lol)

If it was a counter to high spammable skills it would give the energy to you; as countering this high spammable skills will cost you net energy-thus you lose.

@Keats
Yep you could easily interrupt that monk saving an ally with any other interrupt we have; hell even kill him with powerspike which has a recharge of only 3 seconds longer than this spell with that 100 damage difference.
Difference between spike and return (assume 5 energy spell as thats what mostly everyone uses these days)
Return Spike
You down 5 energy You down 5 energy
They up 5 energy They stay neutral
Net=you down 5 Net=you down 5 energy They down 100 damage

Heh seems everyone really loved that SQ arguement; although I will stick with the jump skill of my choice OS/QZ but echo seems to be the new favorite haha. 5 seconds x .66=3.3 seconds for my savage shot under SQ. This still blows power return with MoR as 7 seconds x .5=3.5 seconds...Yep savage shot remains victorious! You brought it up not me Avarre ^_^;;

You do need two support skills to make savage shot infinitely better than power return; but the point remains that it is infinitely better, no reason to use power return at all.

Perhaps if it returned the energy to you and them...but nah thats not going to happen. Perhaps if it was only you. Also no.

Just an interrupt that punishes you for having it.