Curse

Master Fuhon · Jun 24, 2006, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Alot of responses are going to end up sounding like "this is how it's always been so don't change it". I think people are very good with 8 slots, but it keeps almost every class from really being as PvP self sufficient as they could be. Skill balancing is the best way to make the most of an 8 skill bar, but I don't think there will be enough of it because it's very difficult to do.

If you're going to make a good argument against something you need to be able to name the instances where this disrupts game balance. Strong builds don't really need it, monks and warriors in particular. I'd put another energy management skill on my monk bar. I also think no skill bar is currently equipped to face everything better than a warrior (with no touch rangers around). So pretty much the last spot can be warrior's cunning/wild blow if thats your problem, but it could also be a snare, distracting blow (self heal interrupt), or another adrenaline builder. I see this change making the water/air prodigy hybrid better, giving a warder another skill, and doing nothing for a fire ele besides filling out the bar with the next best skill. In the end everyone uses the same skills again.

Assassins can easily argue for it, if you want to put together a full combo you will find yourself without a self-survival skill unless you use AoD. Before assassins, there was nothing beyond a 3 hit combo, and now there are combos with 4 and 5 skills.

Flexibility is extremely limited on an 8 skill bar because there aren't enough multifunction skills, and we can only use one elite skill (which in most cases the build is based around that single elite). There's this whole skill balance issure where you can be immune to spells, but only 1/3 of the time (practical usage), and on top of that you have no immunity to melee or conditions. Obviously you can use skill combos to have full-time partial immunity. Those are like the glyph combos where you need a second skill to make the first one useful.

And cut it out with the excessive panic. Adding one or two more skills wouldn't change the world as we know it. But take one away, and maybe you start to notice how crappy the only builds we can make are. The only thing the limited skill bar promotes is high dependence on team play. In a team, you are working with a 64 skill bar. Then this becomes 72, 80, 88, etc. Does this mean you only need 2 monk secondaries instead of 3 in a balanced build? Then that's a good change. Does this produce a counter to FotM spikes (barbs, fast cast air, smite) or does it give them another few slots to improve their defenses? It's kind of interesting when you think of it that way because in reality you may be giving teams an extra player to do everything but spike, which ends up being a good thing. Another player ends up being another spiker.

Lets Get to Healing · Jun 25, 2006, 06:13 AM // 06:13

First its ten then 12 and so on. No 8 is ok.

LightningHell · Jun 25, 2006, 12:29 PM // 12:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Fuhon

The only thing the limited skill bar promotes is high dependence on team play.

Which is GOOD.

Quote:

In a team, you are working with a 64 skill bar.

Get this out of your head RIGHT NOW.

Yanman.be · Jun 25, 2006, 12:35 PM // 12:35

8x8 = 64? minus the mandatory res signets, you still have over 50 skils you can combine in a team?

Master Fuhon · Jun 26, 2006, 04:52 AM // 04:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Fuhon

The only thing the limited skill bar promotes is high dependence on team play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Which is GOOD.

It is not good. I used the word dependence, as in the common PvE scenario where you supposedly need two monks to complete a mission. Interdependence is a system where people are sufficient enough to survive on their own, but by coexisting they are able to produce something stronger. Dependence is about not being able to fit the ritualists, assassins, or necromancers in any regular build without making it a gimmick.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Get this out of your head RIGHT NOW.

I shouldn't bother responding to equivalent statements without any type of backing to them. But this is a case of someone telling me "how to think", which goes beyond telling me how to play my own game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Fuhon

In a team, you are working with a 64 skill bar.

Maybe I should regret phrasing this statement so simply because of the possibility of being taken completely literally. But I wasn't expecting people to build a full bar of resurrection skills, or a stance tank build being the equivalent of every separate character taking a stance. I meant that if a necro is using putrid explosion, it takes the place of a nuke skill in the build. And possibly it means we don't need to dedicate an elementalist to nuking. If someone has a hex/condition removal skill, its one less that the monk is carrying.

Of course the positioning of the skill on the 64 skill bar will matter, because it determines who can use it. But thats exactly the same as what you deal with on an 8 skill bar. I can't be healing if I'm attacking. It's the difference between parallel and sequential operation, or making a character execute combos by himself. Build somewhat symmetrically and you can balanced split, or otherwise work with a lobsided offense/defense division.

In reality, warriors are running their own independent skill bars, monks end up going full healing, and the rest end up being dependent on each other. Is anyone actually going to come out and say the opposite of my point... 8 skills on the bar and thats all you have in pvp. Thats equally absurd. You can waste your time with the probability functions that generate the equivalent team skill bar. If you're building a spike then you obviously have an equivalent spike skill on several characters.

But I won't tell you how many monks or warriors you HAVE to run, so I'll say you have a 64 skill bar. Monks will have all the ally healing skills so I'm not saying Heal Sig balances with Orison. Sure, if you want to be competitive you need 2 monks, and an equivalent support capability of almost a third monk on your team scattered across everybody. A good offense takes the pressure off the healing needs better than anything.

It's kind of wierd having all these people say 8 is balanced, when if it really was, we would have closer to that 64 skill bar. The game is balanced in a way that the separate classes are unbalanced enough to make it so. The two statements on there being a 64 skill bar and balanced game are equally ridiculous when taken literally.

Jas D · Jun 27, 2006, 05:47 AM // 05:47

lol I think if the original skill slots were up to 10, you guys would still say it was "perfect", considering most of you are probably "Fanboi's supporting anet". Builds require variety, and having more than 8 slots doesnt really have anything to do with balancing, considering your opponent will have 8 too. There's nothing wrong with having more than 8, in my opinion.

wankey · Jun 28, 2006, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jas D

lol I think if the original skill slots were up to 10, you guys would still say it was "perfect", considering most of you are probably "Fanboi's supporting anet". Builds require variety, and having more than 8 slots doesnt really have anything to do with balancing, considering your opponent will have 8 too. There's nothing wrong with having more than 8, in my opinion.

This is quite a good point.

Also, keep in mind that classes will become more powerful in the process and become more complex. Eles will be able to probably cast all their spike damage skills in one volley but then have to worry about massive exhaustion and no mana, and rangers having all their traps AND bow skills but will have to decide when to trap and when to shoot. Warriors have damage and avoid at the same time.

Having 10 skill slots will increase the number of builds, and create more dynamic characters (over powered ones maybe, but there are always counters).

Still, it's only 2 extra slots. It's not like 16 skill slots like WoW. One reason why 10 slots would be a good idea is to store skills. Many times I'm in a battle and wondered, this skill would be very useful right now.

Well it's in my opinion that they should not ahve added the assassin/ritualist class to Factions and rather beefed up the regular 6 classes with a huge load of extra features like new conditions, dual wielding, two handed weapons (claymore etc), daggers for rangers (to make them assassins), bigger cooler looking swords, jumping, swimming, new animations, new faces, new skill sets (instead of duplicating), more freestyle levels (less dungeon crawling and more running free type) blah blah blah. I feel the assassin class is completely useless and the ritualist class is just a pain in the ass with their spirits (easy to kill, annoying class). But that's just my opinion.

eternal pho · Jun 30, 2006, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Yes, well thats what makes guild wars so strategic. Thats how WoW pvp is so tedious, since 30-40 skills have no strategy in them and it'll just bore you out.

Seaweed · Jul 02, 2006, 04:20 PM // 16:20

It would be sweet if Anet allowed a 9th skill that only a ressurection skill could be place. I always feel like it's 7 skills since you basicly have to have a res or else u be called a noob.

Nocere Moriari · Jul 03, 2006, 06:29 AM // 06:29

Stick with ( 8 ) for now

Try 10 in some future event festival, week end.

Laibeus Lord · Jul 03, 2006, 06:47 AM // 06:47

8 skill slots only. no more no less.
maybe less or maybe more only in controlled environments like for example, the Dragon Arena, where we get a different skill set.

changing the number of skill slots will completely undo all the balances since the launching of Guild Wars

jaibas17 · Jul 03, 2006, 07:03 AM // 07:03

I like how it is now, and think that changing it might move the metagame a little too much

Cuthroat Dibbler · Jul 03, 2006, 07:07 AM // 07:07

8 Ftw

derrtyboy69 · Jul 03, 2006, 07:08 AM // 07:08

I say we change it to 1 skill slot, and that can only be a res sig. THen it will turn into this uber fun game where 8 warriors hit each other randomly. That would be friggin awesome.

Cory M · Jul 03, 2006, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pick Me

Granted, I also like to have potions that give you a healing boost or energy boost quickly.

That would be scary... good monks are hard enough to kill by themselves, add potions and ugh...

Eragon Dragonslayer · Jul 05, 2006, 04:31 AM // 04:31

8's perfect!!!! anet made the best game ever....leave it as it is!!!!

Victim · Jul 09, 2006, 06:28 PM // 18:28

Increasing the number of skill slots seems like it would greatly favor people with access to more skills. With each skill slot being so costly, there are many skills that a certain build just can't afford to take. Thus, there's strong diminishing returns on having extra skills - both unlocked, and available to be unlocked. In a multiple expansion environment, not all players are going to have every chapter. With cheaper skills, more combinations are going to open up and thus basically require the extra expansions.

Hemophiliac · Jul 09, 2006, 09:54 PM // 21:54

As I state every 2 months when a new 'lets get more skill slots' thread appears...... Bad idea, the skills are balanced as it is. By adding 2 more skills slots ALL and I mean ALL the skills will need reworking/tweaking. This game is about strategy you are limited for a reason, like it or leave it.

Gizmo Loco · Jul 09, 2006, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Quote:

I was looking over at WoW

I stopped reading there. No, no, no, no, and no.

Master Fuhon · Jul 10, 2006, 03:54 AM // 03:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gizmo Loco

I stopped reading there. No, no, no, no, and no.

I think the original post was pretty good for disguising whatever WoW bias there might be. A game designer who doesn't look at the successes and failures of the chief competition ends up not selling any games. WoW is a very time consuming game, and I could easily see alot of decisions coming down to people deciding to buy either GW or WoW, as I have made this decision myself.

I really didn't have a problem with PKs, as the system in WoW was friendly enough that I could have a care free attitude to being murdered sometimes. And level gaining is grind to some (particularly PvP specialists), but accomplishment to others who just play games to beat them (PvE aspect). The skill bar may have been very large, but it has no effect when the skills come in tiers where previous skills are upgraded with higher energy costs and use times. GW aims to have "balanced skills", so theoretically the bar should be capable of being as large as the designers want it to be. Does player skill come down to initial selection (when you can just copy a build) or does it come battle selection (picking the time to use skills)? It needs to be both.

Personally, I play GW for the balance changes. Potentially, new content or balances could get added that completely alters the way the game plays, making it almost feel like a new game. Games like WoW you can learn what works best and run with it until you get bored. Boredom with games is inevitable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hemophiliac

As I state every 2 months when a new 'lets get more skill slots' thread appears

Interesting phenomen. Looking over the types of responses most threads get, they can easily be filled with poorly constructed arguments (conclusions without supporting evidence). The point is to discover that some people may not be completely satisfied with the game and are looking to a simple solution that may or may not be the real problem.

I have a problem with the stale copy-cat approach that the 8 skill bar breeds. Sometimes, I think there should be more skills. Then I realize that "Elite skills" are more of a problem for me. This is the major limit that gets placed on every build, the usage of one elite. You pick the best one, and build around it. It's a case of everyone is using the same elites and forming the same builds by using the same supporting skills.

If the skill balance and design on the elites is weak, then you have a skill bar that you begin to wish was bigger so that you can do what you want to do. So, if there's no way to make Cleave as attractive as Eviscerate, situationally, you will always take Eviscerate. It will otherwise take 2-3 skills to do the same thing, yet still be worse at doing it.