Curse

Inde · Jun 26, 2006, 01:59 PM // 13:59

Read this great article from Makkert in our Articles and Guides section:

Connecting with the Spirit World

Then leave your comments here!

Jetdoc · Jun 26, 2006, 02:17 PM // 14:17

"When facing Shadowsong, you could position one of your casters within aggro bubble range to have your warriors free of blind as long as they aren't adjacent to the spirit. On the other side, monks could position themselves adjacent to Shadowsong and have some protection from adrenaline spikes. If shadowsong is placed slightly in the back, it means that either the warriors will be blinded, or a caster will need to go in an unfavourable position if it wants to use this tactic of keeping Shadowsong off the warriors."

It is for this very reason that I use strategic "layering" when I cast my spirits by positioning themselves in a ladder-type format.

I usually place my most resilient spirits in the frontline (i.e. Bloodsong, since it heals itself via lifestealing), and place my "support" spirits (i.e. Union) in the backline. I have noticed that in PvE the enemies generally attack any attacking spirits in the frontline first, but once they get to the backline they are targeting Union/Shelter almost immediately, and generally over any other attacking spirits I have in the backline (e.g. Shadowsong).

I always wondered if Pain ignored armor. It almost becomes an invaluable addition to any spirit spammer's aresenal because of its insanely low energy cost and casting time. I'm now reconsidering whether Bloodsong is really worth carrying...

Makkert · Jun 26, 2006, 02:47 PM // 14:47

Hello all,

this is the first article that I wrote, that in contrast to my previous articles, also has a discussion thread attached to it. I'll be following your remarks with interest, and will comment here and there to clarify.

Jetdoc:
note that 'frontline' and 'backline' are debatable. I think it's better to call it 'way backline' and 'backline'. I wouldn't place any spirit really in the frontline for reasons described.

Bloodsong isn't the greatest thing alive. It can combo with skills that make nearby spirits lose some life, like Spirit Transfer. It has a SLIGHTLY longer life expectation when faced with damage. (most of the time, if really targeted, the damage is quite high due to low level of the spirit, and it will die fast).
Aside from that, I don't know what to do with Bloodsong...

Kind regards,
Makkert

Kabale · Jun 26, 2006, 03:08 PM // 15:08

Destruction states it damages foes 'in the area', does this equal to the 2/3 radar range you mentioned in the article?

Also, can you confirm that Displacement is bugged and is taking away the same amount of health per evaded attack at attribute 0 as attribute 16? I've heard this before (I think it even says on GuildWiki), and have not noticed an update which has fixed that.

Nice article though. Maybe make a note of the one skill that does heal spirits (Spirit Boon Strike)?

Edit: About Displacement taken from Gwiki:

Quote:

This skill is currently bugged, the damage taken remains at 60 regardless of the attribute level.

Displacement is already an annoyance, imagine if they fix it...

Guildmaster Cain · Jun 26, 2006, 03:19 PM // 15:19

I think Destruction and Life have the same range, which is 2/3 of radar as well, or 3x bubble radius.

The post would be even better if you would include some thoughts of healing spirits. Like Veratas Sacrifice and Well of Blood, which both effect spirits as well. BotM doesnt effect though as far as I have seen.

/applaude

Kabale · Jun 26, 2006, 03:38 PM // 15:38

The skill descriptions for Life and Destructions differ though:

Destruction:
Binding Ritual. Create a level 1...8 Spirit that dies after 30 seconds. When this spirit dies, all foes in the area take 1...4 damage for each second the spirit was alive.

Hmm and another skill description when the link is followed for more detail (still on GWiki):

Create a level 1...8 Spirit that dies after 30 seconds. When this spirit dies, all nearby foes take 1...4 damage for each second the spirit was alive.

I believe the correct one to be the first, will dig this one out later....

Life:
Binding Ritual. Create a level 1...8 Spirit. When this Spirit dies, all allies within its range are healed for 1...4 Health for each second this Spirit was alive. This Spirit dies after 30 seconds.

I believe the 'within it's range' equals the 2/3 radar, but 'in the area' is the same as the range as it is shown in the Temple of Balth.

Didn't know about Verata's Sacrifice though, interesting.

Minnix · Jun 26, 2006, 06:12 PM // 18:12

The equation: 50 + (Spirit Level * 20) * (1 + Spawning Power * .04) is the correct formula for both Ranger and Ritualist spirits.

Hamumu · Jun 26, 2006, 08:07 PM // 20:07

In my limited experience, Destruction is pretty much useless (PVE). Its range is teensy (as said above, it seems to be "in the area" in the usual sense). Now, I've never actually used it, this is just from dealing with the PVE enemies who do. If I just stand a little ways away, it has no effect. It almost never ends up hurting anyone other than the warrior henchies who attack it.

And more than just the range, we're talking 120 non-penetrating damage, after a 30 second delay? That's unbelievably weak - a Spirit Rift only makes you wait 3 seconds for comparable amounts. It seems like Destruction should do really enormous damage, making it a priority to kill it off before it can ramp up too high. Of course, if that were the case (10 dmg per second? 20?), then combining it with spirit-popping skills and Draw Spirit would make it incredibly overpowered.

Does anybody use this spirit with some measure of success? Seems like you'd need to rely on Draw Spirit to get any benefit from it. And even that entails jumping right into the middle of battle personally, and either timing it perfectly or using a spirit-destroying skill and getting less than max damage. I definitely don't know much about it. Maybe better for PVP? I could see employing it in some kind of overly elaborate spike that would be a lot cheaper and easier to do other ways.

That's the kind of thing I'd like to see expanding this article - the specific uses and value of each spirit. The article is very loose on that, despite being dead-on with the statistics and positioning. Like, do I want to use Wanderlust? Earthbind? When? What do they work well with? Here's a question that just occurred to me - does Bloodsong penetrate Protective Spirit/Shelter? It's life steal...

JoeKnowMo · Jun 26, 2006, 10:49 PM // 22:49

Very nice guide, Makkert.

Some suggestions for additions to your awesome guide:

You may want to mention Spirit Transfer and Gaze from Beyond, as both steal life from spirits.

Also, unlike it's skill description, I've noticed that Union takes as much damage as it mitigates. If you're taking 16 or more damage, then Union mitigates up to 15 dmg and takes 15 damage. However, if you're taking less than 15 damage, Union will make that zero, and will itself only take as much damage as you should have received.

Displacement doesn't seem to trigger if the attacking foe is blinded or hexed with a spell that makes them miss (e.g., blurred vision) only if they're missing due to the hex/condition. Meaning Blinding Flash, Shadowsong, Blurred Vision, Price of Failure, Reckless Haste, etc. will help displacement last longer.

The energy regen of spirits is 4 arrows, which u probably knew, but wasn't included in the guide.

Wanderlust should also be included on your spirits with AI list.

Although Wanderlust is also a Spirit with Health Penalty Effects, it does not have the 2/3 radar range of the other health penalty spirits.

Preservation has a very small range, about 1/5 of the aggro bubble. Also, it heals on its own timer at 4 sec intervals - 1 sec, 5 secs, 9 secs, 13 secs, etc. If no allies are within it's range and you run in at the 6 second mark, it won't heal you until second # 9. This is somewhat clear from the description, but many may not realize it.

The damage reduction from Armor of Unfeeling triggers before the protection from spirits.

A table of health and energy gain from Boon of Creation might be a handy reference as well for folks. Also, the health and energy gain from Boon of Creation (and damage from Explosive Growth) triggers when you drop Anguished Was Lingwah.

Ways to heal Spirits: Signet of Creation, Spirit Boon Strike, Well of Blood, and Well of Power. Well of Power will also increase the energy regen of spirits to 6 arrows. Verata's Aura does not heal spirits. Neither does Consume Soul or Spirit to Flesh, although their descriptions suggest that they may.

Regarding the AI of attacking spirits: If no foes are within aggro range, they will attack the foe you target with an attack or a spell, regardless of the armor level of other foes around that foe. If you switch targets, some spirits will follow the new target, some won't seems to be somewhat random. If the life of a foe drops below 40% (somewhere around there, not sure exactly), all spirits will attack this foe regardless of armor level. When foes are outside aggro bubble, new spirits created while a spirit is attacking a specific foe will also target that specific foe. However, if foes are within aggro bubble of your new spirit, it will attack the lowest AL foe, and spirits outside aggro bubble range will follow that target. Spirits will not attack a target outside their aggro bubbles (even if you attack it) if there are foes within their aggro bubble.

It is possible to have 2 spirits of the same kind attacking the same target if you cast them far enough from each other (about 3/4 aggro bubble on either side of target).

Tested Displacement and it is bugged, and takes 60 damage each time it helps you evade an attack, even at max Communing.

If you are within range of 2 defensive spirits of the same type (i.e., if both sprits are Union, Shelter, or Displacement), both spirits take the same amount of damage. One might think that just the closest spirit would take damage and die, and then the farthest one would take damage and die; however, this is not the case. The effect of the two spirits also do not stack. Therefore, it's the same as being in range of just one spirit.

Destruction does not have 2/3 radar range. It's AoE range is about the same as a Firestorm.

Roupe · Jun 26, 2006, 11:16 PM // 23:16

what about the ranger nature ritual spirits?

jedi mad hatter · Jun 27, 2006, 12:16 AM // 00:16

I treat Destruction more as a defensive spirit, and it allows me to devote more points to Channeling, rather than split some and stick them into Communing. I hang very close to it and use it as my nearby spirit to boost my Channeling skills, and just recast it when it recharges. It's a handy skill for what it can do... the damage is just a bonus.

Zerikin Loukbel · Jun 27, 2006, 02:44 AM // 02:44

The short recharge time and the fixed duration make Destruction good for using your spawning powers to either heal or do damage by destroying it.

Makkert · Jun 27, 2006, 06:21 AM // 06:21

Well, this is going to be my 6th attempt to make a friggin’ post here, as GWG kindly borks up all my attempt to reply to you. But now, typing in Word to save my typings, I hope I’ll be able to sqeeze a reply in here.
GG borky GWG.

1) range of spirits (caused by Destruction talk)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kabale

I believe the 'within it's range' equals the 2/3 radar, but 'in the area' is the same as the range as it is shown in the Temple of Balth.

This basicly sums it all up.

2) Displacement
I’ve tested the tables on Union and Shelter and couldn’t find any problems.
If either:
- the description is wrong, it should be like Union and have 60 damage each time
- the skill is bugged, it should be as the table, but currently isn’t.

then the table for Displacement is currenlty wrong. I can’t foresee all silly things of Anet

.

3) Necro skills

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guildmaster Cain

Like Veratas Sacrifice and Well of Blood, which both effect spirits as well. BotM doesnt effect though as far as I have seen.

Very interesting. I’ll test it out…
Heal Area doesn’t work, but Well of Blood should?
Verata’s Sacrifice ‘undead allys’ covers rituals?

Well, have I ever. I’ll do a retest to check upon this. No offense to you, just have seen a lot of wrong perceptions made by people and like to see things with my own eyes.

4) “add information on skills that give spirits life / steal life”
I’ve pondered it, but in the end decided not to. A topic article such as this must set that which it clearly, or it will derail fast. Also most of these skills seem straight forward, and I figured people wouldn’t have a problem with them anyway…
I did mention Signet of Creation briefly, but stayed away from naming them all…

5) health equation

Quote:

Originally Posted by Makkert

70 + ((spirit level -1) * 20) * (1 + spawning power * .04).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minnix

The equation: 50 + (Spirit Level * 20) * (1 + Spawning Power * .04) is the correct formula for both Ranger and Ritualist spirits.

look closely, and see that both give the same results. Funny though. Originally I had the same equation that Minnix posted, but decided to move to the equation that is currently in the article because I wanted to keep in line with guildwiki.org and prevent confusion. Now guildwiki.org changed the equation, and I’m still faced with this.

6) Destruction
the greatest thing about Destruction is it’s dandy recharge time. It makes for a nice fodder for Soul Twisting or Feast of Souls for example.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jedi Mad Hatter

I treat Destruction more as a defensive spirit, and it allows me to devote more points to Channeling, rather than split some and stick them into Communing. I hang very close to it and use it as my nearby spirit to boost my Channeling skills, and just recast it when it recharges. It's a handy skill for what it can do... the damage is just a bonus.

I saw someone in RA use Destruction as a save place, and when a warrior dared to come close to him, he sacced the spirit to Rupture Soul for a damage boost and blind on the warrior. It made me chuckle to see it, the warrior got a nasty surprise there. But this is RA, it’s a bit too obvious what you are doing. Not to mention you’re then counting on people coming close to you. You could ball up as a team, but any team with AoE damage would eat you alive. Therefore the defensive value is so-so.

7) JoeKnowMo
I’ll have to give this guy an own header, with such a long post…

Union

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo

Also, unlike it's skill description, I've noticed that Union takes as much damage as it mitigates. If you're taking 16 or more damage, then Union mitigates up to 15 dmg and takes 15 damage. However, if you're taking less than 15 damage, Union will make that zero, and will itself only take as much damage as you should have received.

Interesting…. Not sure how many times you’ll receive less then 15 damage, but still interesting. Will check.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JKM

Displacement doesn't seem to trigger if the attacking foe is blinded or hexed with a spell that makes them miss (e.g., blurred vision) only if they're missing due to the hex/condition. Meaning Blinding Flash, Shadowsong, Blurred Vision, Price of Failure, Reckless Haste, etc. will help displacement last longer.

This sounds logical yes… good point, in retrospective I should have added this…
An article takes a long time to write for me (many weeks/months go by before it sees public) and nearing the end, you get some sort of blindness for your own article.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JKM

The energy regen of spirits is 4 arrows, which u probably knew, but wasn't included in the guide.

yep, it’s also on Guildwiki.org. Since spirits don’t use energy themselves, this is only of importance to skills that drain a spirits energy. Once again, ‘article blindness’.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JKM

Wanderlust should also be included on your spirits with AI list.

duh.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JKM

Although Wanderlust is also a Spirit with Health Penalty Effects, it does not have the 2/3 radar range of the other health penalty spirits.

logical, else this attackspirit could be a real pain in the ass…

Quote:

Originally Posted by JKM

If the life of a foe drops below 40% (somewhere around there, not sure exactly), all spirits will attack this foe regardless of armor level.

I’ll do a test on this one…

I think I got most of the remarks with this. Once again, thanks for the remarks, very nice discussion going on here.

Kind regards,

Makkert

Greedy Gus · Jun 27, 2006, 06:26 AM // 06:26

Also for whatever reason, pain and shadowsong seem to have a 2 second attack rate, while bloodsong has 1.75

The Swift · Jun 27, 2006, 07:12 AM // 07:12

And another thing... If a spirit used by the enemy is regarded as a foe then there shouldnt be any reason why u couldnt shadow step to it... I tryed using Aura of Displacement on a Spirit and it wouldn't allow me to even though the skill doesn't state anything of non-spirit enemies.

Aura Of Displacement:
When you cast Aura of Displacement, Shadow Step to target foe. When you stop maintaining Aura of Displacement, you return to your original location.

Makkert · Jun 27, 2006, 10:10 AM // 10:10

test/ retest #1
- Well of Blood does affect spirits.
- Blood of the Master doesn't affect spirits
- Verata's Sacrifice doesn't affect spirits.
the poster must have confused it with the natural regeneration that spirits have.
- Verata's Aura doesn't affect spirits
- Infuse Condition doesn't work with spirits

In short: spirits =/= undead allies

=========================
Aura of Displacement one got me pondering though... not sure why it should behave that way.

Jetdoc · Jun 27, 2006, 02:32 PM // 14:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

Also for whatever reason, pain and shadowsong seem to have a 2 second attack rate, while bloodsong has 1.75

Can anyone else (ahem Makkert) confirm this? Not that it makes a huge difference, but at least this would give a better reason for carrying Bloodsong...

P.S. A quick note about Dissonance - it's quickly becoming one of my favorite skills in PvE, especially in dealing with bosses and healers. Using a similar strategy to the ViM trapper, I'll set up my spirits, start a battle, and then when the boss/healer is ready to start the healing process, I'll rush up to them and drop Dissonance right on their doorstep. It provides for continuous stream of interrupts to take out their healing - it's quite effective, and they won't run away from it like they would with many AoE interrupt spells (e.g. Maelstrom).

The key with doing this is making sure your other enemies are engaged on other targets. I find that if I put Dissonance up at the start of a battle, 9 times out of 10 the enemy AI will target Dissonance over the other spirits I have on the battlefield, even if I strategically layer them.

JoeKnowMo · Jun 27, 2006, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

Also for whatever reason, pain and shadowsong seem to have a 2 second attack rate, while bloodsong has 1.75

Tested this out, and Bloodsong will sync up with your staff/wand attacks (1.75 secs), while Pain, Shadowsong, Dissonance, Disenchantment, and Wanderlust attack a little slower (seems like 2.0 secs).

Thanks for pointing this out.

For Makkert: May I suggest a name change for your guide to "Communing with the Spirit World." Just a suggestion. It's your guide, so do what u like.

Almighty Zi · Jun 28, 2006, 05:08 AM // 05:08

I was going to wait for you to log on and tell you this Makk but I thought I would post it here for everyone else to see and probably save your little tired typing fingers.

'Shields Up!' affects allied spirits.
Protector's Defence affects allied spirits.
'Retreat!' works off dead allied spirits (this is probably broken).

Guildmaster Cain · Jun 28, 2006, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Makkert

Well, have I ever. I’ll do a retest to check upon this. No offense to you, just have seen a lot of wrong perceptions made by people and like to see things with my own eyes.

Awwwmagaaawwwd!!! Guru is online!!!! WOOW!

Well, I guess sooner or later I will recieve the proper credits, when you can confirm it yourself. ^^

Might be nice to add some info on other skills that effect spirits... like the warrior skills, mentioned above. You can't cast most spells on them directly, but global spells seem to have effect though.
Might as well add a section on things that spirits have effect on themselves. As far as I noticed, Recuperation and Life heal the Necromancers minions as well! Same goes for any other allied unit, like SF dwarves, THK dwarves, etc. I think spirits would pwn when defending the Ascalon Settlement against invading Titan army, though I have to kill Droks Titans first before I can test that. Probably all the other protecting spirits have the same targets.

Another point is the spirit range... I have noticed that putting spirits on high cliffs, extends their range greatly, sometimes up to 2/3 radar. Put attack spirits on a high cliff, walk down and attack targets with staff/wand. The spirits will then attack the same target as you do. I think spirit AI is the same as minion AI. It's so much fun when you are charging a group and suddenly you see 4 siege dark energy balls flying high above your head. ^^

Concerning Bloodsong: It is a bit unclear to me, wether it heals itself, me or both, because I've seen both happen I think. Also when it attacks, its says '-0 -21', is 0 the damage and 21 the lifestealing? Anyway, as all spirits do armor ignoring attacks, Bloodsong does a lifestealing armor ignoring attack. This means that it will ignore effects from damage reducing spells as well, like Protective Spirit and Shelter. You might actually be able to kill Kanaxai with it.

Spamming Spirits in PvP: Although I dont play PvP much, spirits might be nice for guarding your base, because you CAN get multiple spirits of the same type, e.g Pain and Bloodsong are perfect. They die after 160 seconds or if you cast them a second time in the same area. BUT if you cast them about 2/3 of radar away from eachother, you can have multiple spirits, guarding tight spots.

Anyway, when the preview event came, I exclusively played Sin, because I thought the Rt would be just another monk or so. But as soon as I bought factions, I decided to give this 'underdog' a go, needless to say, that untill this day I still dont have a Sin. <No free slots left> As I said before, I rarely played PvP, but one of my guildies that does, challenged me to a duel when I was only lvl 14 Rt. I pwned him on different characters he brought on to me (all lvl 20). I actually held out pretty long versus 2 guildies, until I just resigned. By placing my spirits on a high cliff, I extended their ranges a lot, and that seemed to be very effective.

The build I use: Ritual Lord + Boon of Creation + 6 Spirits of choice. With RL and BoC you can keep any 6 spirits, with a total of 75 energy cast cost, up forever. I usually go with Displacement, Union, Recuperation, Pain, Shadowsong and Life. In a group of 8, I usually go for 1 extra monk for healing, which is highly likely to start complaining, because he has nothing to heal. Try to spam the spirits on places before fighting. Usually Displacement dies fast, but I can recast Union before it dies often. Pain is nice, because of the damage and it costs 5 energy, but you get +7 from BoC + regen time. Shadowsong can blind enemies for 36 seconds, but I can recast it before it dies. Also this blind is hard to remove, because it is reapplied every 2 or so secs. ^^

Now I just quit my ranting and leave it up to you to digest this all and mold it into a nice guide. ^^